General Questions mk 2

[Dumbledork]

You're right.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

So, if I may just recap?

Debatebly Genma's Fault
Ranma's lack of knowledge about girls
-This could be attributed to the facts that Genma kept Ranma on the road throughout his childhood and wouldn't want Ranma to get close to a girl anyway, lest he endanger the Tendo arrangement, but given that single-sex primary and secondary schools are the norm in Japan, it's possible that Ranma would be just as clueless if he had been given a more normal life.

Ranma's tendency towards brashness and insults
-Given that Genma was Ranma's primary (if not only) major role model, and their interactions are and were filled with arguments, insults and fights (though it might be that things got worse between them after Jusenkyo, given the depiction in "Ranma Goes Back to Jusenkyo At Last"), it's logical to attribute Ranma's 'manners' to Genma. But it could be that Ranma just is that way.

Definately Genma's Fault
Ranma's Jusenkyo Curse
-Going to Jusenkyo was his idea entirely, and he was the one who should have tried to study up on the place. Not to mention the fact he was the one who purposely knocked Ranma into the spring, even though Ranma had broken off the fight to shout questions at the guide with a clearly stunned expression on his face.

Ranma's Nekoken
-Genma was the one who failed to read the guide through before actually using it. And while there is a little leeway in that there are some methods of training that are legitimately that harsh (the Amazon techniques, for example), the fact it required simply abandoning the trainee rather than monitoring them despite the presented danger should have sent alarm bells ringing. Then there was his "brilliant" idea to try and cure Ranma's phobia (which probably only made it worse) by throwing him back into the pit three more times, which he did before finally reading the guide.

Ukyo's pursuit of Ranma
-True, he had no idea that Ukyo would come after them, but he was the one who arranged the engagement in the first place... and while he might claim that he was making a 'modern engagement' (and there's no proof that Ranma's supposed decision making actually happened), there is still an investion of honor is such things that meant Genma's abandoning of her, along with stealing the dowry, made him an enemy of the Kuonji family. Someone coming for revenge (or at least reparation) was bound to happen.


Not Genma's Fault
Ranma's rivalry with Kuno or Ryoga
-Genma had no idea that Akane had such a 'suitor', or that he would prove as annoying as Kuno has. As for Ryoga... let's be honest; by the second day, Ryoga was pretty much disqualified for leave. Given that Ranma was shown collapsing from exhaustion, I'd actually chalk Genma taking him from the arena to rest, recuperate, and then go back on the road as a benevolent deed. Neither of them knew that Ryoga would be such an idiot.

Ranma's engagement to Shampoo
-While Genma started eating the food, Ranma joined right in, and the idea occurred to both of them simultaneously. The only way you could blame the Kiss of Death on Genma is that he didn't apply hot water to Ranma before entering the village, or not finding out about any such 'quirks' like that from the guide beforehand, and that's definately reaching.

Kodachi's crush on Ranma
-Genma never even met Kodachi until after she developed her fixation on Ranma... come to think of it, did these two even meet in the manga?

Ranma's bad first impression with Akane
-This occasionally gets laid at Genma's feet, but other than being too cheap to buy umbrellas or raincoats, come on! They were caught in the rain and Ranma was so reluctant to go through with the idea that Genma had to knock hir unconscious just to get her to the Tendo Dojo- there was no time to change back.

[Ezvir]

So, if I may just recap?

Debatebly Genma's Fault
Ranma's lack of knowledge about girls
-This could be attributed to the facts that Genma kept Ranma on the road throughout his childhood and wouldn't want Ranma to get close to a girl anyway, lest he endanger the Tendo arrangement, but given that single-sex primary and secondary schools are the norm in Japan, it's possible that Ranma would be just as clueless if he had been given a more normal life.

Nope. In the first place Ranma's lack of such knowledge is mostly fanon, he is not unusually clueless about girls for a shonen protagonist, rather the opposite.
In the second place Genma didn't try to keep him from normal contact with girls as evidenced by Ukyou.

Ranma's tendency towards brashness and insults
-Given that Genma was Ranma's primary (if not only) major role model, and their interactions are and were filled with arguments, insults and fights (though it might be that things got worse between them after Jusenkyo, given the depiction in "Ranma Goes Back to Jusenkyo At Last"), it's logical to attribute Ranma's 'manners' to Genma. But it could be that Ranma just is that way.

Given that Genma is reasonably polite to most people Ranma obviously isn't emulating him there.

Definately Genma's Fault
Ranma's Jusenkyo Curse
-Going to Jusenkyo was his idea entirely, and he was the one who should have tried to study up on the place. Not to mention the fact he was the one who purposely knocked Ranma into the spring, even though Ranma had broken off the fight to shout questions at the guide with a clearly stunned expression on his face.

Mostly just Juusenkyou being Juusenkyou, though.

Ranma's Nekoken
-Genma was the one who failed to read the guide through before actually using it. And while there is a little leeway in that there are some methods of training that are legitimately that harsh (the Amazon techniques, for example), the fact it required simply abandoning the trainee rather than monitoring them despite the presented danger should have sent alarm bells ringing. Then there was his "brilliant" idea to try and cure Ranma's phobia (which probably only made it worse) by throwing him back into the pit three more times, which he did before finally reading the guide.

No argument here.

Ukyo's pursuit of Ranma
-True, he had no idea that Ukyo would come after them, but he was the one who arranged the engagement in the first place... and while he might claim that he was making a 'modern engagement' (and there's no proof that Ranma's supposed decision making actually happened), there is still an investion of honor is such things that meant Genma's abandoning of her, along with stealing the dowry, made him an enemy of the Kuonji family. Someone coming for revenge (or at least reparation) was bound to happen.

To be fair he and Ranma shared the responsibility (even if Ranma was not aware of all facts), they shared the spoils and Genma took his share of the punishment by letting Ukyou beat him up. If Ranma had done the same the matter would have been settled. It wasn't Genma's fault Ranma suddenly started flirting with her. If you want to make the argument that Ranma was too young to recognize any wrongdoing on their part (which I would disagree with) that just means Ukyou was unreasonable in insisting on including him in her revenge.

Kodachi's crush on Ranma
-Genma never even met Kodachi until after she developed her fixation on Ranma... come to think of it, did these two even meet in the manga?

She is stealing his tea water in the gymastics fight and party in beating him up in the speudo engagement ring chase.

[three headed dog]

Given that Genma is reasonably polite to most people Ranma obviously isn't emulating him there.

Ranma is reasonably polite to most people as well, until they insult him or do things that annoy him. Some people like Kasumi he is polite to throughout the manga.

It is also true that Ranma isn't that clueless about girls, he just tends to treat them like one of the guys. Compared to other shonen protagonists he is very knowledgeable about them.

[Ezvir]

Ranma is reasonably polite to most people as well, until they insult him or do things that annoy him. Some people like Kasumi he is polite to throughout the manga.

I was thinking about pointing out that Ranma is perfectly capable of being polite, too, but then I noticed that this wasn't the usual fanon claim that he just doesn't know any manners at all, SKC merely stated that he has a "tendency towards brashness and insults", which is strictly true, even though to what degree he is justified is certainly debatable.

[Spokavriel]

It could still be Genma's fault. After all the only people Ranma has ever seen Genma be polite to are ones he is lieing to or getting ready to rip off. So maybe because of that Ranma equates being courteous with preparing to take advantage of someone. So he avoids it along with stealing and lieing.

[mondu_the_fat]

So, if I may just recap?

Ukyo's pursuit of Ranma
-True, he had no idea that Ukyo would come after them, but he was the one who arranged the engagement in the first place... and while he might claim that he was making a 'modern engagement' (and there's no proof that Ranma's supposed decision making actually happened), there is still an investion of honor is such things that meant Genma's abandoning of her, along with stealing the dowry, made him an enemy of the Kuonji family. Someone coming for revenge (or at least reparation) was bound to happen.

Ukyo's pursuit is largely NOT Genma's fault.

What Ukyo wanted was to beat the crap out of Genma and Ranma. Once Ukyo beat Genma (which was what Akane witnessed at the start of the arc), she stopped going after him and went after Ranma. If Ranma had taken the beating, Ukyo would have went her way.

However, Ranma wasn't going to let himself be beat up (and no one can really blame him for that), thus frustrating Ukyo. If that had been the end of it, Ukyo would have simply tried again. Ranma, however, calls Ukyo "cute" (again, not something bad; Ukyo does seem cute), and Ukyo... reacts. She gives up on her quest to beat Ranma and decides to become his fiancee, waving aside his engagement to Akane and claiming her own as legtimate (when she herself already tossed it aside originally).

So, primarily, Ukyo chasing Ranma is Ukyo's fault.

It is also partially Ranma's fault. In not making up his mind, he is essentially stringing Ukyo along, but I still place this debacle more Ukyo than anyone else.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I admit I may be clueless here... but, whether or not Genma intended the Ukyo arrangement to be a modern engagement, doesn't the fact he broke things off (and did so by abandoning Ukyo on the side of the road and running off with the dowry- which, I'd like to point out, Ranma had no idea what was going on) mean that he damaged the Kuonjis honor? So isn't Ukyo expected (if not required) to exact retribution for that loss of honor?

Yes, it was her decision to resume trying to marry Ranma, but Genma was the one who accepted the engagement offer a decade ago, and Genma was the one who ran off with the dowry. Ukyo would never have come after them if Genma hadn't abandoned her and stole the dowry... or just not made the damn engagement in the first place.

[Ezvir]

It could still be Genma's fault. After all the only people Ranma has ever seen Genma be polite to are ones he is lieing to or getting ready to rip off. So maybe because of that Ranma equates being courteous with preparing to take advantage of someone. So he avoids it along with stealing and lieing.

Which is why Ranma is reasonably polite to Souun, Kasumi, Toufuu, Cologne, Nabiki up until the engagement switch story, Shinnosuke's gandfather and many others?
Genma is reasonably polite to pretty much everyone he interacts with except possibly Ranma, and hasn't lied to anyone except Ranma, Nodoka and Ukyou's father.

[mondu_the_fat]

I admit I may be clueless here... but, whether or not Genma intended the Ukyo arrangement to be a modern engagement, doesn't the fact he broke things off (and did so by abandoning Ukyo on the side of the road and running off with the dowry- which, I'd like to point out, Ranma had no idea what was going on) mean that he damaged the Kuonjis honor? So isn't Ukyo expected (if not required) to exact retribution for that loss of honor?

Yes, she is.

It was clearly Genma's fault in running away with the cart and leaving behind Ukyo. Yes, Ukyo did have sufficient reason to go after Genma.

She _did_ go after Genma. Genma let himself be beat up. Ukyo beat Genma, then left him alone after that. Case closed. Honor against Genma satisfied. Likely the Kuonji's and Genma will never be friends, but Ukyo does not seem to be blood thirsty after Genma anymore.

Yes, she did try to exact her "revenge" on Ranma (not that I blame Ranma for that event), but decided to change that revenge into chasing after him in marriage, something beyond her initial goal of retribution for her lost honor.

That was clearly her decision, not Ranma's, nor Genma's.

[lwf58]

She _did_ go after Genma. Genma let himself be beat up. Ukyo beat Genma, then left him alone after that. Case closed. Honor against Genma satisfied. Likely the Kuonji's and Genma will never be friends, but Ukyo does not seem to be blood thirsty after Genma anymore.

Agreed.

Yes, she did try to exact her "revenge" on Ranma (not that I blame Ranma for that event), but decided to change that revenge into chasing after him in marriage, something beyond her initial goal of retribution for her lost honor.

That was clearly her decision, not Ranma's, nor Genma's.

She wanted revenge on Ranma because she thought he was party to her betrayal. Her forgiveness of him was based on two things: finding out he was ignorant of the engagement and thus innocent of willfully abandoning her, and because he treated her as a pretty girl, something she'd not thought of herself since their childhood.

Was it Genma's fault? Gotta disagree with you on that one. If Genma's gluttony hadn't caused him to agree to the engagement, the whole thing would never have happened at all.

To his credit, Genma did refuse at first, and told Ukyou's father that Ranma was already engaged. It wasn't until the yattai was tossed into the deal that Genma stopped thinking with his brain and let his stomach take over.

As for the later events... when Ranma complemented her and made her feel like a girl again, and when Akane told him to go with his "cute fiancee", she decided to open up the engagement again. But that could never had happened if Genma hadn't agreed to an engagement in the first place, so it ultimately can be laid at his feet.

Ranma's contribution to the situation was excusable. He was simply reacting to the fact that the person he'd always thought was a boy was in fact an attractive girl.

The fact that he never broke it off after that is another thing entirely.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Can I just ask? How much effort did Mr. Kuonji put into tempting Genma into accepting the arrangement anyway? It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that in manga and anime alike, he brings up the topic off-screen with Genma, whereupon Genma says these words:

"Take your Ukyo for my Ranma's bride, eh? I hate to tell you this, but the boy's already got himself a fiancee."

Mr. Kuonji closes his eyes and says these words: "Now that's a darned shame, and here's me ready to throw in the family cart as her dowry too."

Genma suddenly clasps Mr. Kuonji's hands, which makes him open his eyes wide, and says: "Sold! I mean, I accept your generous offer (generous terms?)". At least, in the anime; I think in the manga he says "but aren't promises made to be broken?".

[lwf58]

Yep. That's it. Didn't say it took much effort to bring Genma's gluttony to the fore. But at least he did try to beg off at first.

[Crescent Pulsar]

I'm going to go out on a limb, here...

How about the times when Ranma eats someone's food without asking? That would include such times as: eating the first prize at the Amazon's village; eating the soup with the dragon's whisker in it; and stepping on the back of that one guy's head to take his meal.

I base this on the fact that Ranma is shown having to fight for food, and Genma is shown to be too strong to get it until later in the series itself. While that doesn't necessarily mean that Ranma experienced hunger, and that the food wasn't just extra, the treatment of being denied food, for whatever reason he wanted it, could be attributed to taking food when he feels he needs to.

So, yeah, that's why I'm on a limb. Weeee~

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

LWF58: I'm actually merely curious as to how much of the blame for the engagement could be laid on Mr. Kuonji's feet... I think that's what I'm needing to say. Perhaps "did Ukyo's dad deliberately try to manipulate Genma into agreeing to marry their kids" covers things better.

Crescent Pulsar: ...uh, just what are you talking about? The writing is coherent, but I don't know what you're referring to.