Ranma-chan and a guy

[Khortez]

If you pair Ranma-chan, although it is still Ranma only in curse form, with any other guy, shouldn't it technically be considered yaoi or something?
Going with what I just asked, I have problems with people pairing Ranma with guys and making him locked in girl form. I mean if you want to pair Ranma with another guy, why don't you just keep him in male form? Either way, it is still guy on guy action only without the dangly parts.
I also hate fannon where they have all the guys at Furinkan lusting after Ranma's female form. I may have missed some minor panels of that happening, but I remember during the Tsubasa arc they all prefered getting food from someone they thought was a real girl other than Ranma.
Would someone mind explaining to me why they don't like it when Ranma doesn't have a curse? I mean its not really like it affects his growth as a character, it really only comes across like a plot device.

[antimatterenergy]

Ranma-chan paired up with a guy could be considered yaoi because Ranma is male but it is also not yaoi because while female Ranma appears to be %100 female xy becomes xx. (Ranma may even menstraute and be able to have children since it is shown by the musk that beings when given the girl curse can bare children and has had nightmares of having Kuno's children) Also at least in the anime Ranma is shown to have an alternate personality that is female.
Most people would lock Ranma's curse for a few reasons one being that if Ranma ever was attracted to a guy he would most likely stay female and guy/guy pairings tend to creep out many people.
Ranma is while female very attractive so it would not be surprising that most of the males (teenagers especially) would be lusting over Ranma's female form. The reason they would prefer getting food from a real girl is because they actually have somewhat of a chance of dating the real girl where as they already know Ranma's reaction to date requests and it is a lot less weird to want someone who is %100 of the time female. Also we do see in some story arcs that they find Ranma very attractive especially the mirror clone story arc.
Ranma without his curse is not the Ranma we know and his curse effects much of his life in both major and subtle ways. For instance people treat Ranma differently while female (everyone in the manga does this to some degree if nothing else they use female word choices in talking to Ranma while female like using chan instead of kun): Akane is nicer to Ranma while female, Akane's insults stemmed from Ranma's curse, people expect Ranma to talk and act differently while female, Ranma has to adapt fighting styles becuase of his curse, Ranma acts differently while female some of the time (more emotional, more shameless, etc..) Ranma uses the curse to his advantage and can do stuff while female that he can't get away with as male. Because of his curse Ranma doesn't become aroused when seeing naked girls instead he becomes embarrassed. Also Ranma's curse does effect his character growth for instance Ranma is less chauvinistic because of his curse, Ranma can understand girls better than he would have without his curse, etc...
If Ranma ever where to lose his curse you could expect several personality changes. less insecure, less prone to take insults badly, more confident in day to day things, less worrying and nightmares - we do see that the curse gives him nightmares, and many other changes could be expected. Also people would treat an uncursed Ranma differently then they do a cursed Ranma.
For instance if Ranma showed up at the Tendo's as an uncursed male Akane would not have tried to befriend him, Kasumi and Nabiki would not have been so quick to pass him off to Akane. Nabiki would probably have been the one to become engaged to him becuase she was the only one who had been looking forward to it. or another example if Ranma had defeated Shampoo while male instead of female she would not have tried to kill him and probably have never been cursed.

[Khortez]

The only people who treat Ranma differently when he is female are the people who don't know he is male, or the lecherous, like Happosai. The only reason he is more shameless as a female is because he is used to doing things as a male, and habits are hard to break, and he uses his female body to beat the lechers. If there was a female equivalent of Happosai, I'm sure Ranma would do that same thing with his male body.
If what you said about Akane treating him better as a female were true, then you would be able to find it any random volume you looked in. I couldn't find any examples in the ten or so volumes I looked at. However I did notice that Ranma was male most of the time, and thus is more likely to get him when he is male, which might have caused that assumption, however Akane still hits him when he is female. And the small chapter about them going to Hawaii, Hinako briefly counts him among the girls, but then later keeps refering to him as Mister Saotome, and Akane even wonders what will happen when the guys get to the 'real' girls, meaning that she still recognizes Ranma that even in his cursed form isn't truly a girl, and thus doesn't treat him any better when he is in that form.
Also we don't know what Ranma was like before he got the curse excepting some small flashback scenes to his childhood, so we don't know if it even changed him at all. He might still be as chauvinistic as he was before the curse, and it is clear that Ranma doesn't understand girls at all as seen all the times he is trying to be woo Akane.
If something like the nightmares continued and changed Ranma somehow that would have shown growth, but the nightmares are never continued.
As for you last paragraph that supports my point that the curse is a plot device more than a focal point for the character.

[Sunshine Temple]

Alright, I split this topic as it was drifting.
On the subject of Ranma with a guy.
It's possible, but damned hard to do it well.
Normally takes a long time of character growth to do it. Trimater did it well.
I... well... cheated (and many say still failed) in Windborn.
For the others... heh.

[lwf58]

Failed? Maybe. I don't know how many people said they liked it. I just know that once you started in on the Kuno-Ranma matchup, I just couldn't continue reading... Which was a shame, since I usually enjoy your stories. I also like the base plot idea of Ranma becoming a fairy queen. Perhaps someday you'll be inspired to write a different version of the idea, one without the yaoi aspects. It'd get my vote.

[Khortez]

Actually the first question on the first post was mainly to lead up to the second part and meant to be taken as a complain that I too hate reading fiction that leads into a Ranma/male pairing, but I guess that I worded it wrong. Also meant to be a small rant because Ranma is a male and thus any pairings with other males makes Ranma, as a character, a homosexual. Although his body may be female, his mind is still the one he had while he was male. That's how I see it anyways, and not that I didn't think it can't be done well, but its not the type of fic I enjoy.

The main reason for the post though was to ask why people thought that Ranma's character was tied in to the curse. As I mentioned earlier, it seems to be more of a plot device than an actual character attribute and with or without it the character is mostly the same. Like Goku with or without the tail, the character is the same, only that one small thing is different. His character wasn't defined by the giant monkey thing, like Ranma's isn't defined by his curse. That's my take on it, and I was wondering why others thought that a fic with Ranma not having a curse wouldn't be Ranma at all.
Once again, I didn't think the post was drifting from the main topic, as I listed some problems I had in fanfiction writing, and then asked about a topic brought up in the thread. Sorry if it seemed like a it should have had a seperate thread. I was considering making it, but I thought that this thread tied in nicely with my main question.

[lwf58]

The way I see it, you're mistaking "character" for "personality". The term "character" covers a lot more territory. You are right that Ranma without the curse would probably have a reasonably similar personality to the way he is in canon, but his character would be completely different; the curse defines him in many ways, because dealing with it and the situations it causes is what makes Ranma distinct from, say, Tenchi of Tenchi Muyo! or Makoto Mizuhara of El Hazard. Without it, Ranma 1/2 would only be different from the large numbers of other harem-anime series out there because of the martial arts comedy spin.

[Khortez]

You're right. Personality was the word I was looking for. Damn brain and its tendency to forget, I'm getting senile and I'm not even 20 yet. It bodes ill for when I get into my old age.

[WG_Writer]

The following post is entirely opinion, I make no claim of fact, just my opinion and noticed patterns.
I believe that the main problem with locking Ranma or dumping the curse is it is a major change. It is one of the core things that define Ranma as a character. The main problem I find with losing the curse is that without it you need to look at who your character is now.
i.e. Ranma cures his curse, leaves nerima, has no contact with the NWC, and gives up Martial Arts.
The question that has to be asked is not "Is this Ranma?" rather it should be, "Why am I using Ranma?" and follow up with, "Would another character or an original character be better?"
The main problem with "curse locking" and "curse curing" is that it usually coinsides with other changes that subtract from who Ranma is. For an example look at "Aftermath: a story of blended cliche" this is a great fic, but very quickly we see devolopment that turns Ranma into 'Ranko' or a female persona. the devolopment does happen, but if not for the fact that story needs Ranma to work it would not otherwise be a Ranma fic.
and compare that with "Dragon Lady of Macross." Ranma still can turn male in that fic, but the temperature is so high that it may as well be locked. Ranma looses the mutiple fiancees, extream Martial arts abilities (is still an exelent martial artist, but I would give it to cannon Ranma in a 1v1 fight and no veritech. In all due Honestly, I do love that fic, but it could have been done with an OC that was never cursed, and it wouldn't affect the story much.
I was recently at a panel in Anime North and this was said and generally agreed: "A character is not seperate from the environment that it exists in, that environment is a part of that character, just as that character is a part of that environment."
This would mean that to truely use Ranma you must use him with the same environmental interactions as he would in cannon. It can still be done with a locked curse, that has been done in cannon, however, it needs to be said that simply using the name and abilities is not enough to make it Ranma.
Picture Ryoga being taught the Hirushotenha and 'chestnut fist' (sorry for english name, don't want to tackle its spelling at this late) then grant him confidence after a fight so he can use Ranma's Moko Takabasha. If this Ryoga is a close match for the character you are calling Ranma, then you may be using the wrong character.
It is beause of this that many fic writters use Ranma badly since in truth the only reason they are using Ranma is because of his name and popularity.
$0.02

[TerraEpon]

One thing to remember...
Ranma isn't unique in that he is often in the "wrong body" so to speak. He just, unlike IRL, is able to go back to the "right one".
We have an example in our own community right here, of BurgerBecky, who had a sex change. She felt she was a woman, though she was born a man. If someone is a transgendered person, in the "wrong" body, would pairing them up with the opposite sex (i.e., a girl who believe's she's really a guy in mind paried up with a guy)...would THAT be yaoi? Answer that, and you'll have your answer.
-Joshua

[antimatterenergy]

Khortez
You yourself just listed one good reason as to why people prefer Ranma to have his curse - becuase we don't know what he was like without the curse or how much getting the curse changed his personality.
As for Akane being nicer to Ranma while female, When I read the manga I get the impression that Akane is somewhat nicer to Ranma while female. She seems to be more understanding of him while female, less quick to hit Ranma, and more likely to hear him out. Also to me it shows more in the latter volumes. Though generally Akane is pretty mean to him regardless of form and she does hit him in both forms. That is just my interpertation though.
Ranma is generally more shameless while female it's not just with lecherous people. He is much more likely to dress skimply or even change in front of a crowd while female (romeo and juliet arc for instance) and he does stuff while female that he wouldn't do as male such as act cutesy to guys and every disguise was when female for instance.
In the original Japanese Hinako-sensei doesn't say mr soatome she uses the gender neutral -san honorific.
The regular cast do treat Ranma a bit diffently especially in the original Japanese but it isn't major generally and they do expect Ranma to act somewhat differently while female.
Also about that yoai question: I don't like Ranma with a guy fics either but the way I see it since Ranma is physically a girl when transformed. Doesn't matter what Ranma's thought process are its a guy/girl. Sure she's a tomboy but she's still a girl.

[lwf58]

Ranma is generally more shameless while female it's not just with lecherous people. He is much more likely to dress skimply or even change in front of a crowd while female (romeo and juliet arc for instance) and he does stuff while female that he wouldn't do as male such as act cutesy to guys and every disguise was when female for instance.

He isn't "shameless". He doesn't walk around in the nude, and he doesn't show off his body. He -- as mentioned in the series -- simply has no sense of feminine modesty. He walks around topless because that's what he'd do as a boy.
When he dresses "skimpily", it's always, as far as I can remember, in order to accomplish a task of some sort. In other words, it's a tactic to get something. He does not wear sexy clothing when he's just dressing for himself. He uses his female body as a weapon, whether it's to chase after a possible cure, or just scam some extra ice cream.

In the original Japanese Hinako-sensei doesn't say mr soatome she uses the gender neutral -san honorific.

The term -san does mean "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Miss", "Ms." or whatever else it needs to. It's the normal word to use when speaking to or of someone. Other words are simply variations on it, for the most part.
The idea that -chan and -kun are gender-specific is fanon. The Japanese use those terms for both male and female. While -chan is more often used by girls, it's because they want to sound cute. -Chan and -tan are derived from the fact that small children tend to mispronounce -san, and they were adopted into the language the way every other language includes "baby-talk" phrases.

The regular cast do treat Ranma a bit diffently especially in the original Japanese but it isn't major generally and they do expect Ranma to act somewhat differently while female.

Not really. They want Ranma to act differently when female, and the joke is that he doesn't. He talks like a guy, acts like a guy (when he isn't trying to trick someone), and dresses like a guy. And that's because he is a guy.

Also about that yoai question: I don't like Ranma with a guy fics either but the way I see it since Ranma is physically a girl when transformed. Doesn't matter what Ranma's thought process are its a guy/girl. Sure she's a tomboy but she's still a girl.

And that's the conclusion that misses the whole point behind Ranma's character. He isn't a tomboy. He's a boy with the wrong plumbing, and acts in ways no girl, tomboy or no, would ever act. Akane is a tomboy, although not to the degree that fanon likes to say she is. Dyed-in-the-wool tomboys would never wear dresses or skirts as much as she does.
Some of what really sets him apart can only be properly interpreted by watching or reading the Japanese raws, with a better than average understanding of Japanese society. In Japanese, he talks like a boy -- something that can't be properly shown in English, because in Japanese, there are words only girls use, and words only boys use. Except when he's acting, Ranma always talks like a boy, physical gender notwithstanding. The same goes for body language; he doesn't act like a tomboy, he acts like a guy.

[antimatterenergy]

lwf58
The definition of tomboy is a girl who behaves according to the gender role of a boy. If Ranma is female (and the curse does make him female) and acting like a guy by defintion Ranma is a tomboy. Just a more extreme version than most.
Ranma will walk around in his underwear as a boy too so he is pretty shameless. He is just more likely to do so as a girl. Also it doesn't matter that Ranma is doing it for a reason he still has to be pretty shameless to do it at all. Also he wore a two piece to the beach once I think for no known reason.
I never said that -chan or -kun are always gender specific I only mentioned Hinako-sensei using -san because Mister is gender specific. The Japanese honorific -san is not gender specific.
They still want Ranma to act differently the fact that he doesn't, doesn't change the fact that they want and expect him to.

[Khortez]

TerraEpon, I would have to say yes, it would be. I mean everyone would see it as a straight couple, but to the girl it would be like a gay relationship, ditto with the guy if he knew it as well. The girl see's herself as a guy, and she is with another guy, technically fulfilling the the requirements of a gay relationship. I guess that it is just a matter of perspective.
Antimatter, while I don't agree with you about Akane being nicer to Ranma when he is female, and people treating him differently (other than the Kuno siblings and those that don't know about the curse) you are right about Ranma being more shameless when female. You see more of Ranma-chan's breasts than you see male Ranma's chest, and even then male Ranma wears a towel around his waist and female Ranma doesn't.
Still about acting all cutesy as a female, can you give me an example when it is not an act to get something? Because Ranma is a good actor when he wants to get something done, and a good liar too. For example he pretended that he actually wanted to learn from Hinako and wanted to be a good student to take away the koi she had that kept her in her adult form, and when he pretended to be Ryouga's sister, maid, and fiance to keep him from getting Akane.

[DCG]

you guys must not have watched, or read the anime and manga in a while.
Ranma can out female ever girl in the show.