Seven Shadows Question.

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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:25 pm

Sailor Poot-O? :P
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:45 am

camk4evr wrote:
1 - Not when you're in a running battle and happen to be at ground zero.

2 - It takes time to get an aircraft into the air even if there are no other planes landing and taking off. He then has to control enough to turn it around and bring it down on the senshi while dodging their attacks (and there may even be a limit as to how far away from the aircraft he can be and still control it). If he keeps the aircraft on the ground he can give up control for short periods without running the risk of losing control of it or of the plane getting too far away for it to be an effective weapon and he can use it as a shield or use it to disrupt the senshi's attacks. \this doesn't even take into account that to target the senshi he has to be close enough to see them which can be a bit difficult at night.

3 - In the end it was probably just easier to control the plane while it was on the ground, as he fought the senshi, than while it was in the air (and, if I remember correctly, he still lost control of it enough to almost run himself down).

4 - And before anyone says that he could just fly the plane from inside it and crash it into the senshi I will point out that 1) he was using himself as bait to draw out the senshi and would run the risk of them leaving if they don't see him because they decided his threat was actually a trick to draw them away, 2) they could readily destroy the aircraft before it hit them if he wasn't on the ground to draw away their attention, and 3) he'd still have to escape while ensuring the plane hit the senshi (not easy).


1: When you can fly, teleport, and generally leave ground zero against girls who's best mobility has been power jumping. When you can personally fly, abuse it. He failed to do so.

2: An aircraft can go from cold start to airborne in two minutes. So time isn't an issue, the Senshi aren't going anywhere anyway. As for controlling the vehicle at range. The guy can teleport and fly. He had no reason to stick around and bait the Senshi. A huge 747 taking to the sky would ensure they stick around wondering what he was going to do next. After all, you don't leave a madman alone in control of a giant weapon.

3: So he's not only stupid, he's lazy. His ass was on the line and he half-assed his attempt. No wonder Beryl locked him away. At least Manga version got the decency of being violently incinerated by Rei. This version lost control of a plane he had no reason losing control of, because Mars slapped im with an Ofuda, because he was too lazy to stay up away from the Senshi, and too arrogant to take them more seriously.

4: Hah! Like I said, they'd LEAVE knowing he was flying a 747? Leave to where? An 747 is a giant bomb with wings. They won't leave because anywhere else allows him to kill them AND hundreds of people. This is Tokyo we're talking about. The airport's empty taxiways are the best place to be short of diving into the bay to keep bystanders out of the way. And no, destroying the aircraft in the air before it could hit would be futile. Instead of a 747 barreling down on you, you have a 100 ton fireball fixing to slam into you. Just in case you missed this part of reality, things don't just vanish when destroyed. Usagi had better be minmaxing her Dodge stats.

Your efforts to justify Jed's stupidity are futile. His failure just can't be justified. He was stupid, and because he was stupid, he lost. Maybe he was stupid because the plot called for it, maybe he was always intended to be stupid. Either way, he was stupid. Which is good for the good guys, but that doesn't matter. I'm strictly talking about him.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:27 pm

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:Your efforts to justify Jed's stupidity are futile. His failure just can't be justified. He was stupid, and because he was stupid, he lost. Maybe he was stupid because the plot called for it, maybe he was always intended to be stupid. Either way, he was stupid. Which is good for the good guys, but that doesn't matter. I'm strictly talking about him.

Whenever a writer needs somebody to be stupid, it should be justified in the story itself. She got drunk; he'd been hit on the head; she was so angry she wasn't thinking straight; he's missing essential information. If people need to justify the stupidity, the writer hasn't been doing it right.

Fire has an excellent story, Bauxite's Hour, in which a fifth General is not stupid. It's not a very long story, and it doesn't go well for the Senshi. But at least it has a decent explanation (definitely non-canon) of the stupidity of Beryl and the other four Generals.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby camk4evr » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:44 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Sailor Poot-O? :P


I think they named her Tristam (I didn't watch more than two episodes of S or SuperS when it aired)

1: When you can fly, teleport, and generally leave ground zero against girls who's best mobility has been power jumping. When you can personally fly, abuse it. He failed to do so.


They don't actually fly, they hover or float in place and they don't seem capable teleport of teleporting short distances. Not that I can remember at any rate.
2: An aircraft can go from cold start to airborne in two minutes. So time isn't an issue, the Senshi aren't going anywhere anyway. As for controlling the vehicle at range. The guy can teleport and fly. He had no reason to stick around and bait the Senshi. A huge 747 taking to the sky would ensure they stick around wondering what he was going to do next. After all, you don't leave a madman alone in control of a giant weapon.


Two minutes is a long time when you have three magical girls throwing magic at you (or when someone's shooting at you or robbing you or...^_^). Besides, did he clear the runway after every civillian was 'asleep''? If you have to navigate a course of stopped aircraft it's going to take sometime (and there's always the possibility of incoming aircraft to screw you up)

3: So he's not only stupid, he's lazy. His ass was on the line and he half-assed his attempt. No wonder Beryl locked him away. At least Manga version got the decency of being violently incinerated by Rei. This version lost control of a plane he had no reason losing control of, because Mars slapped im with an Ofuda, because he was too lazy to stay up away from the Senshi, and too arrogant to take them more seriously.


There's a difference between easy and being lazy. It's easy to drive a car but not so much if you're being shot at, firing back, and you aren't familiar with cars in the first place. It's therefore not lazy to someone else drive while you're fighting back.

4: Hah! Like I said, they'd LEAVE knowing he was flying a 747? Leave to where? An 747 is a giant bomb with wings. They won't leave because anywhere else allows him to kill them AND hundreds of people. This is Tokyo we're talking about. The airport's empty taxiways are the best place to be short of diving into the bay to keep bystanders out of the way. And no, destroying the aircraft in the air before it could hit would be futile. Instead of a 747 barreling down on you, you have a 100 ton fireball fixing to slam into you. Just in case you missed this part of reality, things don't just vanish when destroyed. Usagi had better be minmaxing her Dodge stats.


1) they'd have to know he was on the plane and it wasn't one that got out before he cast his spell or a regular flight comming in, 2) the senshi have proven to be rather resilient to attacks that can wreck buildings and vehicles, and 3) the senshi can teleport or, at least seem to to the generals as they keep appearing out of nowhere to stop them. Further the generals are familiar with the senshi's past selves and don't really have any idea what the latest incarnations are capable of so they probably assume that the senshi have the same abilities as their past selves (since they usually bugger off and leave the fighting to the youma they usually don't witness the fight and how much trouble they have).

If anything the generals aren't so much stupid as stupidly arrogant (yes, there's a difference, ie, Dr Doom or Lex Luthor). They assume that since they (apparently) killed the senshi before that they can do so again when they turn their attention to it (admittedly they had an army backing them at the time but being imprisoned for thousands of years probably hasn't done anything to help their mental processes any^_^). To make matters worse Jadeite is rather desperate at this point as he knows that to fail again is death (he ran back to Beryl because he figured that having seen their civillian identities, she would grant him leniency).
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Shinji: Well suppose some mysterious entities were attacking, and
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Pusakuronu » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:57 am

camk4evr wrote:They don't actually fly, they hover or float in place and they don't seem capable teleport of teleporting short distances. Not that I can remember at any rate.


Zoisite does both.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:06 am

Two minutes is a long time when you have three magical girls throwing magic at you (or when someone's shooting at you or robbing you or...^_^). Besides, did he clear the runway after every civillian was 'asleep''? If you have to navigate a course of stopped aircraft it's going to take sometime (and there's always the possibility of incoming aircraft to screw you up)

He wasn't being shot at ahead of time, or before he sent the planes after them. In fact, he didn't spend very much time getting shot at, at all. And what retardedness is this? Clear the runway? Unless an aircraft is actively landing, the runway is ALWAYS clear. And given how the airport was almost completely shut down, and how he could freely taxi a plane the size of a 747 around without too much trouble, there was nobody on the taxiways. And finally, considering he knocked out everyone in the airport, there was nobody awake in Haneda Tower to grant landing clearance for any aircraft that might have been making an approach. Which would force them to divert to Narita, just fifty miles north east.
There's a difference between easy and being lazy. It's easy to drive a car but not so much if you're being shot at, firing back, and you aren't familiar with cars in the first place. It's therefore not lazy to someone else drive while you're fighting back.

Irrellivent. His plane was his attack. He doesn't have to stand around getting shot at. He just has to float safely above the battle and make a grim face while flying his weapon into his target.
1) they'd have to know he was on the plane and it wasn't one that got out before he cast his spell or a regular flight comming in, 2) the senshi have proven to be rather resilient to attacks that can wreck buildings and vehicles, and 3) the senshi can teleport or, at least seem to to the generals as they keep appearing out of nowhere to stop them. Further the generals are familiar with the senshi's past selves and don't really have any idea what the latest incarnations are capable of so they probably assume that the senshi have the same abilities as their past selves (since they usually bugger off and leave the fighting to the youma they usually don't witness the fight and how much trouble they have).


1: They don't have to know anything about Jadeite's plane. He just has to ram them until they give up. And it's hard to miss the only 747 in the area making a takeoff roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IprW_i4PZd0
2: Resiliance to attacks that dent metal and crack cement, yes. But they are not yet at the level of withstanding a 394,100 lb battering ram filled with 57,285 gallons of kaboom juice slamming into them at 300 knots. (Stats: 747-400)
3: The Senshi cannot perform a combat teleport (Tactical Teleport). Only Sailor Teleport at this time.
If anything the generals aren't so much stupid as stupidly arrogant (yes, there's a difference, ie, Dr Doom or Lex Luthor). They assume that since they (apparently) killed the senshi before that they can do so again when they turn their attention to it (admittedly they had an army backing them at the time but being imprisoned for thousands of years probably hasn't done anything to help their mental processes any^_^). To make matters worse Jadeite is rather desperate at this point as he knows that to fail again is death (he ran back to Beryl because he figured that having seen their civillian identities, she would grant him leniency).


Stupid is as stupid does. His arrogance doesn't justify his stupidity, only makes it stand out. From day one, these girls haven't just been annoying. They've been killing his monster minions. Yet despite this fact, he never, EVER took them seriously. That's STUPID.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:40 am

I'd argue that even that wouldn't make him stupid. First of all, his goal up until the last episode was to gather energy, and as far as that was concerned Beryl had no complaint. So long as he was getting enough energy, he had no real reason to get personally involved. Second, he can watch the battles that his youma has with the senshi, and knows that they would have been defeated if not for the Rose Penguin's intervention. In the episode before his final appearance, when he teamed up with one of Beryl's youma (and was thus personally involved), he had already learned that he had underestimated the senshi, when they managed to defeat Tetis without the Rose Penguin's help (while he stood there and expected them to lose, and perhaps looked out for the Rose Penguin). And because Beryl teleported him away (how convenient, writers), we have no idea how the senshi would have been able to win against him (since their victory, of course, is expected).

With all that said, the only time he is supposed to do nothing else but to destroy the senshi, his plan actually worked pretty well. For instance, using the planes would have been a dumb idea unless he was relatively sure that the senshi wouldn't have simply taken out the landing gear, or make them go boomy. And when the Rose Penguin appears, he takes care of him handily (to the effect that he is no longer a concern). Considering how he can stop Moon's tiara and use a shield to prevent physical attacks (shown in episode 3), and how he was able to dodge Moon's tiara even when his powers were messed up by Mars', we can see why he had no reason to fear going into Mercury's fog so he could see where the other senshi were.

In the end, he wasn't a victim of his own stupidity, even though I'm sure that we could all think up better ideas regarding what he could have done. What really did him in was the asspull/Chekhov's gun (or skill)/deus ex machina (it's bound to be one or a mix of those; I honestly can't tell for sure). Mars comes in and shows us that she can practically incapacitate a general, and how can a formidable enemy win when their power is turned against them in addition to having little in the way of defending against what used to pose no real threat? And how was he supposed to expect that kind of ability?

I'm not saying that Jadeite is a genius, but all things considered he's not exactly stupid, either. After all, the senshi aren't all that smart, and are in fact rather reckless; yet they have to win. The average intelligence quotient of all characters has to drop to facilitate that.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Pusakuronu » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:58 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I'd argue that even that wouldn't make him stupid. First of all, his goal up until the last episode was to gather energy, and as far as that was concerned Beryl had no complaint. So long as he was getting enough energy, he had no real reason to get personally involved.


He wasn't actually getting energy, though. His victims wake up when the youma is destroyed because their energy returns at that point. Beryl is starting to get impatient as early as episode 3. He only succeeds in episode 4, where he uses brainwashed human helpers rather than a youma. He takes the energy from the machine he was using to drain it and escapes through a portal, then pours it into Beryl's crystal ball. That success bought him some time. It's also mentioned that Usagi's teacher (one of the victims) took a week to recover from this. In Episode 11, Beryl comments again about his many failures, and tells him that killing the sailor senshi is an additional goal now. Episode 12, she is threatening to replace him, and 13 is the airport episode.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:36 pm

He must have been getting energy from somewhere, or else Beryl would have made a real issue out of it at the beginning of episode 13.

Also, at least in the subbed version of episode 11, it's Jadeite himself who says that he will kill the senshi, not Beryl. And, by that point, it's already been at least a week (it's probably during these times that he gets energy) since his latest plan has been in operation. The next plan, in episode 12, he would have acted upon his words to Beryl if she hadn't teleported him away just as he was about to attack the senshi.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby camk4evr » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:39 am

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:He wasn't being shot at ahead of time, or before he sent the planes after them. In fact, he didn't spend very much time getting shot at, at all. And what retardedness is this? Clear the runway? Unless an aircraft is actively landing, the runway is ALWAYS clear. And given how the airport was almost completely shut down, and how he could freely taxi a plane the size of a 747 around without too much trouble, there was nobody on the taxiways. And finally, considering he knocked out everyone in the airport, there was nobody awake in Haneda Tower to grant landing clearance for any aircraft that might have been making an approach. Which would force them to divert to Narita, just fifty miles north east.


A) There are three times that the runway is not clear: 1) Take-offs, 2) Landings, and 3) Maintenance and repairs. If Jadeite caused all the civillians to sleep then any/all the runways could be in one of those three states and would therefore require clearing. We don't know and thus my argument is a valid reason. In fact, if he made everyone fall asleep in place then this is probably likely (I'd have to rewatch the episode to be sure)

B) You should not call anybody's suggestions retarded nor stupid as many, myself included, find them insulting. I do not call your arguments stupid or retarded, please extend the same courtesy to myself and anyone else especially as you are the one who wants us to defend Jadeite's actions using reasons other than 'genre conventions'.

Irrellivent. His plane was his attack. He doesn't have to stand around getting shot at. He just has to float safely above the battle and make a grim face while flying his weapon into his target.


So he has to expend the power/control to fly, control a flying aircraft, and dodge potential return fire? It'd be easier to drive a car and talk on a cell phone (and there's a reason why that is illegal). Hell, he might not even have the strength to do all three even if he was mentally capable of that level of multitasking

1: They don't have to know anything about Jadeite's plane. He just has to ram them until they give up. And it's hard to miss the only 747 in the area making a takeoff roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IprW_i4PZd0
2: Resiliance to attacks that dent metal and crack cement, yes. But they are not yet at the level of withstanding a 394,100 lb battering ram filled with 57,285 gallons of kaboom juice slamming into them at 300 knots. (Stats: 747-400)
3: The Senshi cannot perform a combat teleport (Tactical Teleport). Only Sailor Teleport at this time.


We know that, he does not. He, and the other generals fought the senshi in their previous incarnation (when they were considerably more powerfull and experienced that they are now). All he knows about them in their present incarnations is that they appear out of nowhere, that they always find out about his secret plans to collect energy, and that they (apparently easily) destroy his youma preventing his energy collection scheme to fail (remember he never stays around to watch the battle).

Stupid is as stupid does. His arrogance doesn't justify his stupidity, only makes it stand out. From day one, these girls haven't just been annoying. They've been killing his monster minions. Yet despite this fact, he never, EVER took them seriously. That's STUPID.


If he never took them seriously then he likely wouldn't have even bothered with his final battle with them and just went about with the energy collection operations. In a way he was probably overestimating their abilities, at least until the start of the fight, but after seeing how badly they fought against him, he started to underestimate them again (with good reason considering who he's facing^_^).

Actually, just earlier today (Friday morning, I didn't post earlier because I was annoyed), I thought of another potential reason for the ways the Generals fought the Senshi: insanity. While they appear to be high functioning, they have spent several thousand years (significantly longer than Earth humans live) sealed away with life energy sucking monsters (do youma need that energy to live?), some sort of sleeping elder horror, and a Queen who's one small step from being totally bat$#!t insane. When you consider that, before joining Beryl, they used to be Prince Endymion's loyal bodyguards, they're probably not the most stable bunch to begin with (what is that saying? Repeating the same actions over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity ^_^).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shinji: Well suppose some mysterious entities were attacking, and
Asuka:Oh please, Baka Shinji, that sounds like some cheap, pseudo-profound T.V. show. Low budget. Ambiguous ending.
-Asuka and Shinji discussing why you would build a giant robot. NGE: Shinji Ikari Raising Project Vol.6
Last edited by camk4evr on Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby talonhunter » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:29 am

When you stop and think about it, it would explain all the generals actions. I mean seriously, after so many years in the sealed realm, you would have thought they would have been working on contingency plans for contingency Plans in case they ever did escape into the real world. That and I think on some level, the Generals Wanted to loose. How else would the weekend senshi take out the men. But the seven shadows...(Or Shades) Are probably like he silence is for Hotaru/Saturn, a darker thread or aspect to the senshi's powers Serenity sealed within the crystal as well. And unlike dark lady or mistress nine, they no longer have a strong tie to the soul they represent. Here Is
The link to the wiki explaining what the 7 represented in the anime
Who needs the light when the shadows are so much more...Playful

Senshi of Dione (Saturn IV)

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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Pusakuronu » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:44 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Also, at least in the subbed version of episode 11, it's Jadeite himself who says that he will kill the senshi, not Beryl.


Yeah, my mistake. It's Episode 10 not 11, about 3 minutes in, when she gives him the order. "And also find the warriors and kill them!"
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:56 am

She says that and collecting energy separately. The problem is, even if he's looking for them, they find his energy collection schemes. And, from what we know, when he's collecting energy he's usually somewhere else collecting it. This suggests that he can't do both things at once; or, if he can, that dividing his attention/power would make him feel less than safe enough to do it. So it comes down to priority, and taking what energy he's taken to fight another day, perchance to either find the senshi or watch them die at the hands of a youma, is preferable to attacking after the fact without a plan already laid out. He tried to after Titus died because he knew that he didn't have many chances left, thus choices. (He also tried when he thought Moon was alone, but the Rose Penguin showed up, and I think it was a prudent move on his part to retreat against two opponents when one is capable enough to kill youma and the other is of unknown capability.) Which ultimately led him to having no choice but to abandon any energy collection scheme and lay out a trap for the senshi, since he can't find them and they always seem to find him.
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