Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

[Crescent Pulsar R]

I'm sure that the subject is a bit odd, but it was the best I could come up with that would fit (space-wise, if barely) for what this is about. Mainly, this concerns crossing Ranma 1/2 over with Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.

For the first part, I'm a bit mystified by how magic works, exactly. It's been a while since I've watched the first two seasons of MSLN (I finally got around to watching StrikerS, now), but I don't recall it ever going into great detail. I more or less understand that devices handle shaping mana into magic, but does that mean that the mind normally finds that task difficult? Because I'm sure I've seen a mage or two using magic without a device. Or my memory could be faulty. Beyond that, if Ranma had what it took to be a mage (i.e. having a linker core), would it be possible for him to use mana like his does ki?

Alternatively, would it be possible to say that what they call ki is actually mana, and that's why there are only a few superhuman-seeming martial artists out of the millions of practitioners on Earth?

Finally, would the TSAB, or any other known organization, actively search for potential mages on Earth? Or would that strictly be conducted on planets where mages are common, where, rather than search for them, there are places for people with linker cores to approach themselves? In either case, how is it determined that someone is a mage/has a linker core? Can a mage sense it, or is technology required?

As one might suspect, these questions are geared toward crossing Ranma 1/2 over with MSLN without Ranma taking Nanoha's place, as I don't really know a good way of doing it any other way. Basically, I can't figure out how Ranma might get a mage's special attention, or how he might somehow get transported to Mid-Childa or some other world where mages are common.

[Spokavriel]

How about the old Ranma copying a technique route?

He stumbles on a battle Nanoha has in one of her earlier trips to Earth after getting accepted and all and he manages to pull off one of her attacks without an Intelligent Device. Sure low level but the device would detect it and surprise all of them.

Might set up for him to be too powerful unless you can find some way to explain it as a fluke. Or maybe drawing energy from built up curse magic potential?

[Wyrd]

There are many little comments from Nanoha(the various series, not the person) that suggests that there are a great many different varieties of magic used. Mid-childans seem to mostly use a system based on very complicated math. The intelligent devices in many respects are glorified calculators, doing a large percentage of the work of setting up the patterns and calculating the right angles for the spell to activate. They also channel and focus the mage's power, and make it easier to draw on. However, a mage can use these spells without the device if they know them well enough and can do the math in their head. Nanoha in particular masters quite a few spells that she can use without having to rely on Raging Heart at all.

Martial arts being a style of magic that is still in the process of developing on Earth would allow Ranma to already have a developed linker core from the practice he has already put in to learn to use skills like the Moko Takabisha. If he were introduced to a school from a magically active planet that had developed martial arts instead of math as their primary focus for magic, he could be up to a level to compete with Nanoha in a very short time. The relative power levels rather require levelling him up a lot unless you have an enemy that is vastly more vulnerable to ki than to magic and you are treating them as completely separate forces. I would suggest looking at the ground mages from Strikers for inspiration on where to take his abilities, or just look through the tvtropes for full contact magic.

As for Earth, only a very small percentage of people native to Earth can use magic at all. However, there is a comment that it seems that of those who can use magic, a much larger percentage than normal are in the A to S rank of power. Mostly, TSAB is not going to recruit actively on Earth as long as Earth is not a member nation, which will likely last until Earth manages to achieve substantial space flight or hyperflight on their own, at which point they would likely be contacted and offered membership. A mage who is on Earth for whatever legitimate reason can recruit a local who he notices has magical ability(it happens more than once in the series), but they don't seem to go looking for them. As far as detecting magical ability, it does not appear that mages can tell if a given person has the potential to be a mage unless they are using a spell or see the person perform obvious magic. The Wolkenritter, for example, needed Shamal to pick out people with strong linker cores for them to steal magic from. That was her primary power and use as a knight of the Book, though she did have other powers, such as the ability to charge their cartridges.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Well, if it helps, the tentative idea I had takes place just before Strikers, or early on. Nanoha is on Earth (for one reason or another; perhaps visiting family and friends) and, at the time that she witnesses one of Ranma's fights, she's having lunch at her family's cafe, outside. Since I'm uncertain whether she would see ki attacks as being magic, the idea is that her interest is piqued due to how such a powerful physical force, not backed by magic, might be good to explore as a means of bypassing an anti-magic field. If that idea wasn't feasible, I'd fall back on creating a scenario where ki is what mana is called on Earth.

[Spokavriel]

Considering the angles and calculations aspect. What if Nanoha ends up erecting a shield to protect her and friends or family from becoming collateral damage from one of Ranma's fights. And that leads Ranma to persuing her to learn how to do the neat "Ki shield" technique.

[Undeen]

I will admit I've always preferred stories where Ki and Magic are the same energy used in extremely different ways by different cultures. I've read some very good stories both ways, but especially with what I know of magic in Nanoha it seems to work well. Where as with Mid-Childan magic is done through highly complex mathmatic calculations and able to create very powerful and detailed effects (I'm thinking the barriers they fight inside so as to contain the damage as an example) while the Ki techniques the martial artists use are for the most part, rather basic. A single or double shot of energy condensed and contained in a sphere. That's probably as basic as such things can be, I can't really think of anything that would seem simpler for an energy attack.

Now obviously there are definable differences in style beyond just how the energy is controlled. Where Mid-Childan mages create external shields (barrier jacket, etc) the martial artists seem to draw the energy inside themselves to reinforce their bodies. It's the only believable way to explain how they can take the hits they do without breaking bones.

Having Ki being the same as magic also goes quite a ways in explaining why Ki users seem to be so rare, as there aren't supposed to be many mages on earth.

That all said, I freely admit I'm a bit influenced by a story with a similar idea that I enjoy by Lost Star - http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5245635/1/M ... _Nanoha_12

I do hope you decide to write your story idea, I'm interested to see what you will come up with.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Well, if I don't, I can always cough up whatever I've cooked up in the Ideas forum. I'd just rather avoid ki being mana since that would over-complicate things in the Strikers continuity, by bringing in more new characters than necessary. It'd depend on how convenient and available it is for travel between Earth and Mid-Childa.

(Say, does Ranma still have a curse in that story?)

[Makoto]

To some extent, though I don't think Lost Star's actually elaborated on it, yet - just that Ranma may have one.

I'm not sure, but I think in that story, everyone has magic (= a linker core) to some extent, but different magical abilities/strengths and the rankings, of course

[Comartemis]

There's actually a very easy way for ki and martial artists to slot right into place in the Nanoha mythos.

Most magic you see done in this series relies on linked mana particles. These get mentioned in a couple of places, like in the description of Nanoha's Starlight Breaker spell (she's gathering linked mana left over from previously-cast spells) and more significantly in the descriptions of AMF fields and the Huckbein's "Zero Effect" (AMF erodes the bonds and weakens spells, Zero Effect just destroys the bonds outright), however it's also possible to create attacks using unlinked mana. To the extent of my knowledge, this is only explicitly used in one place in the series; Subaru's Duster Knuckle spell. You probably don't remember this one because Subaru never called it out at any point, it's only pointed out detailed in the DVD extras; whenever the gears on Subaru's Revolver Knuckle start turning just before she punches something, it's because she's using this spell to boost the power of her attack. Very simple, not very flashy, doesn't require an incantation... sounds like the sort of thing Ranma would use, doesn't it?

If we take this further, we can probably lump a lot of spells together into an unlinked mana category, like telepathy and basic levitation (not full-on flight magic though, that's a whole different ball game). I've previously referred to a style with these properties as "Archaic Belka"; basically, martial arts and weapon arts like what Ranma uses is the sort of magic the Belkans would have used before devices were created.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Well, if possible, I'd like to keep ki and mana separate concepts. Mostly because he'd just be another mage, as far as the MSLN universe is concerned, and alone I don't think it'd justify Nanoha taking too much interest in him, to such an extent as to warrant bringing him back with her despite her obligations with Section 6/Riot Force 6 (whichever it was). The initial attraction would be the advantage of using ki for a developing problem, but she would also find out that Ranma has the potential to be a mage. It's ultimately what he can do when mixing ki and mana together that will make him too unique to pass up, despite her tight schedule, as his use of mana will be as basic as his ki manipulation appears to be. But, if I have to, I have no real problem with illustrating ki and mana as being one and the same thing.

There's one thing that I need clarified. It was mentioned earlier that Shamal could determine strong linker cores from weak ones. I know that Yuuno could tell that Nanoha had a lot of talent, at the beginning, but that may have just been due to expecting a release of mana and seeing the result of it. But would Nanoha be able to determine if Ranma's ki is mana (regardless of whether it is or not) by a sense other than sight (which, if not, could lead to the assumption that it is mana, by looking like it), and without her device telling her (as I don't know if it can, even though I remember at least one other device being able to identify various things (Caro's, I think)). I wish I had paid more attention as I watched StrikerS, to see if anyone can find someone, or notice their presence, because someone else was using magic.

[Wyrd]

Yuuno could tell that Nanoha was strong enough to be a mage because she could hear his call. Nobody else in the area heard his telepathic call for help at all. It could be that he tailored the call to only catch the attenition of someone strong enough to help him, or it could be that a certain minimum strength is needed to engage in telepathic communication. I don't recall a civilian ever being talked with through telepathy.

Could Nanoha tell that there was something different about Ranma? I would say yes if she used some sort of spell on him, but no to picking up on it without doing so. Not all spells are flashy. She could cast one that didn't make any obvious signs, given the low power requirements such a spell would likely have.

[Comartemis]

Nanoha might not notice, but Raising Heart probably would. Even passive scanners in Intelligent Devices are pretty strong stuff and they're more multipurpose than anything we have currently. I wouldn't put it past RH to notice large amounts of energy being tossed around.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

This is looking promising, then. I'd like to thank everyone for their input, though any more is still welcome. I should probably re-watch the first two seasons after I'm done with StrikerS to make sure what I learned here polishes things up properly. I wish it was all in manga format, since it's an easier mode of reference for me. ;/

[Pale Wolf]

For the first part, I'm a bit mystified by how magic works, exactly. It's been a while since I've watched the first two seasons of MSLN (I finally got around to watching StrikerS, now), but I don't recall it ever going into great detail. I more or less understand that devices handle shaping mana into magic, but does that mean that the mind normally finds that task difficult? Because I'm sure I've seen a mage or two using magic without a device. Or my memory could be faulty.

Wyrd has it. Essentially, magic is a matter of controlling energy flow - using the equations to get superiour precision and control. If you wanted to merge it, you could say that you just get better control that way, but you can also go mostly by instinct and feel. (For instance, while there are some very hard numbers governing the physics of where a baseball ends up and how fast it goes, if you've done it enough, you just have a 'feel' for it)

Think of it as... the Device is a spellbook and calculator. If the mage remembers the math and can handle the numbers and control on their own, then they can cast deviceless, but the Device makes things easier.

Beyond that, if Ranma had what it took to be a mage (i.e. having a linker core), would it be possible for him to use mana like his does ki?

If they're different energies, then I'd go with 'no'. Concentration to shape one would make it easier to shape the other, but the techniques that make ki do something wouldn't make magic do... well, they might make it do something, but not the same thing.

Alternatively, would it be possible to say that what they call ki is actually mana, and that's why there are only a few superhuman-seeming martial artists out of the millions of practitioners on Earth?

This is what I usually use. Magic A is Magic A, whole lot simpler and saner than saying there are two to three different mysterious energy fields that bind the galaxy together.

Finally, would the TSAB, or any other known organization, actively search for potential mages on Earth? Or would that strictly be conducted on planets where mages are common, where, rather than search for them, there are places for people with linker cores to approach themselves?

The TSA doesn't specially seek people out. Most of their recruits come from, well, standard recruiting stations. If someone's abnormally powerful or skilled, especially to the point where it becomes a problem or contributes to an incident, then they'll go out to get them, and if they're dangerous, then they'll be restricted, but the TSAB mostly leaves Earth alone.

In either case, how is it determined that someone is a mage/has a linker core? Can a mage sense it, or is technology required?

I'd say a mage can sense it without need for anything more complex than a Device - Yuuno was able to tell that Nanoha had magical capability. Though, obviously, he wasn't quite clear on how much she had.

As one might suspect, these questions are geared toward crossing Ranma 1/2 over with MSLN without Ranma taking Nanoha's place, as I don't really know a good way of doing it any other way. Basically, I can't figure out how Ranma might get a mage's special attention, or how he might somehow get transported to Mid-Childa or some other world where mages are common.

Well, just because the TSA don't specially seek out Earthlings doesn't mean if one doesn't interest them they won't pick 'em up. Though 'transported' is also an option, if you've got some scientist loon picking up Earthlings for human experimentation, which would get him conveniently 'away' enough that he's on Midchilda. Or, alternately, just have him watch a Nanoha battle (or hell, even training) and decide 'okay, that looks awesome, I wanna learn' and sign up with the TSA that way.

Well, if I don't, I can always cough up whatever I've cooked up in the Ideas forum. I'd just rather avoid ki being mana since that would over-complicate things in the Strikers continuity, by bringing in more new characters than necessary. It'd depend on how convenient and available it is for travel between Earth and Mid-Childa.

Hey, just because they can do magic doesn't mean that they'll either A: be there, or B: be members of the TSA. It's not like they can travel between worlds without getting someone else to lift them, and Ranma would be smart enough to say 'okay, these loons stay behind, if I'm getting shot at by criminals I don't want these idiots out for my blood too'.

(And conversely, even if they couldn't use magic, it's not like they wouldn't inherently be there - Midchilda is hardly off-limits to non-mages)

Where Mid-Childan mages create external shields (barrier jacket, etc) the martial artists seem to draw the energy inside themselves to reinforce their bodies. It's the only believable way to explain how they can take the hits they do without breaking bones.

Honestly, the ki reinforcement seems pretty much analogous to the barrier jackets. Teana got kicked so hard she flew through the wall of a skyscraper, without really being slowed down at all - and she's one of the squishiest members of the cast!

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Wyrd has it. Essentially, magic is a matter of controlling energy flow - using the equations to get superiour precision and control. If you wanted to merge it, you could say that you just get better control that way, but you can also go mostly by instinct and feel. (For instance, while there are some very hard numbers governing the physics of where a baseball ends up and how fast it goes, if you've done it enough, you just have a 'feel' for it)

Think of it as... the Device is a spellbook and calculator. If the mage remembers the math and can handle the numbers and control on their own, then they can cast deviceless, but the Device makes things easier.

So it ultimately comes down to practice, using a tool of convenience, or both.

If they're different energies, then I'd go with 'no'. Concentration to shape one would make it easier to shape the other, but the techniques that make ki do something wouldn't make magic do... well, they might make it do something, but not the same thing.

I don't know. Generally, in the end, I would suspect that it comes down to mind over matter, whether it's ki or mana. In part because they both require training of the mind, even if for different reasons. But I don't think that they're too dissimilar that it would greatly affect one's ability to control one or the other, where the mind is concerned.

This is what I usually use. Magic A is Magic A, whole lot simpler and saner than saying there are two to three different mysterious energy fields that bind the galaxy together.

What's wrong with there being more than one thing?

I mean, it's normal to have two things, at least. Such as good and bad, left and right, here and there, mental and physical, your treasure and my trash, et cetera. And magnetism. Don't forget about magnetism, which I do believe makes the existence of ki and mana together in a person both simple and sane.

Besides, mixing them should be fun!

I'd say a mage can sense it without need for anything more complex than a Device - Yuuno was able to tell that Nanoha had magical capability. Though, obviously, he wasn't quite clear on how much she had.

Though he may have only known because she was the one that heard his voice, instead of sensing it. But it's probably not such a big deal to say that a mage can sense/feel mana or magic in the environment or in a person. It shouldn't kill anyone, anyway. I think.

Well, just because the TSA don't specially seek out Earthlings doesn't mean if one doesn't interest them they won't pick 'em up. Though 'transported' is also an option, if you've got some scientist loon picking up Earthlings for human experimentation, which would get him conveniently 'away' enough that he's on Midchilda. Or, alternately, just have him watch a Nanoha battle (or hell, even training) and decide 'okay, that looks awesome, I wanna learn' and sign up with the TSA that way.

Hey, just because they can do magic doesn't mean that they'll either A: be there, or B: be members of the TSA. It's not like they can travel between worlds without getting someone else to lift them, and Ranma would be smart enough to say 'okay, these loons stay behind, if I'm getting shot at by criminals I don't want these idiots out for my blood too'.

(And conversely, even if they couldn't use magic, it's not like they wouldn't inherently be there - Midchilda is hardly off-limits to non-mages)

Well, it's mainly because I won't be able to handle too many more characters being added to the StrikerS storyline. That, and Nanoha's obligations would probably make a multiple-person pickup too unrealistic. In part because my knowledge of how the TSAB operates is limited. I'd rather single Ranma out, so he's not a ki user among ki users (whether that ki is mana or not), by making him distinguished as both a ki user and being one of those rare mages from Earth. I find that to be more convenient and natural (like those short stories in the manga where Ranma ends up being by himself) than having to explain why such and such is or isn't there, or why this or that isn't happening. HAVE MERCY UPON MY MEAGER GREY MATTER! I IMPLORE THEE! X_X