Likely Progression of Events

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I was watching the final episode of the Ranma 1/2 anime's third season a short while ago, and I started wondering. For those of you who don't know, the basis of this episode (which turns out to be a dream) is that Ranma, Genma and Happosai use the busted Nanban Mirror to travel to the past in China, attempting to prevent the past-Ranma and past-Genma from falling into the springs at Jusenkyo. Long story short, they fail.

The vague idea I have is for a oneshot that uses the core concept: what if Ranma tried again, and this time succeeded? Told from the perspective of the past-versions, this time future-Ranma and future-Genma decide upon a more direct approach: putting on masks and perhaps thematical costumes, the two time-travellers intercept their past-selves on the road to Jusenkyo and, basically, end up fighting. During the fight, cold water ends up splashed on future-Genma, and the shock of seeing a man turn into an animal gives the two Saotomes pause long enough for future-Ranma to spill the beans and reveal the true nature of Jusenkyo- complete with a demonstration of his own curse.

Of course, the two future-Saotomes don't *admit* that they're the future selves of Ranma & Genma; I was thinking that future-Ranma would basically spin a tale along the lines of claiming to be martial artists who, like the past-Saotomes, came to Jusenkyo after hearing about it, and decided to stay and act as "guardians" for similarly misguided martial artists. The past-Saotomes, naturally, decide to forget about Jusenkyo and go elsewhere- and here is the reason I came forth in this topic...

Just what do you think would happen from this point? Once the past-Saotomes have moved on from their meeting point with their future-selves, where would they go and what would happen to them? I had the vague idea that they'd probably head to Jokestuzoku, due to Future-Ranma unthinkingly starting to boast about where he learned his skills and having to change it in mid-sentence to "the masters of Joketsuzoku", so as to avoid revealing his identity, but how would them walking into Shampoo's hometown male and without the (admittedly poor) translator of the Jusenkyo Guide to help them change things and what would happen from that point?

[jasonjkay]

I think this post belongs in the ideas section. As for the idea, I think I've read something like this befor but I cant remember where. Whilst the idea is ok, I cant see why it would be interesting if you take the curses away, and Ive definately read a few no curse stories which arent as good, due to less chaos from the curse. In my mind, curses are an essential part of Ranma stories.

[Penguin-sa]

A lot depends on your take on time travel. Larry Niven (SF writer) wrote a splendid essay in the late 70's on the logical implications of changing the past via time travel (re-printed in a collection All the Myriad Ways). Niven postulates four types of universes:
1) Time travel is impossible (so who cares?)
2) Time travel is possible but but physical interaction is impossible (ghost observer)
3) Time travel is possible, physical interaction is possible, but the past is impossible to change, except for details.
4) Time travel and physical interaction is possible and the past is mutable.

In the first two types of Universes, there is no paradox possible. In the third, the universe guards against paradox by "healing the time line". In the fourth, Niven thinks the changes will continue until those changes convert the Universe into one of the first three. I am not doing the essay justice, and if you can find it, I highly recommend it.

In any case, the scenario you lay out is clearly set in either the third or fourth Universe types. In Universe-3, The two Saotomes would get cursed anyway, but in a (slightly) different manner, thus restoring the time line and cause and effect. I.e. If the Saotomes are not cursed, they will not go nack in time to stop themselves, so they become cursed, repeat loop. In Universe-3, the paradox is avoided by them getting cursed anyway so they will go back to prevent that curse.

In Universe-4, the pair would be successful, but would radically alter the time line, resulting in all sorts of paradox issues. For example, the time traveling (TT) Ranma could return to his present still cursed, only to find an uncursed Ranma already in existance (eliminates paradox to a degree). TT Ranma could be locked and find an uncursed duplicate avoiding the doppleganger issue.

Just my opinion, but any such story as the one you lay should address the paradox issue, even if said paradox is a minor issue, rather than what drives the story.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

It's hard to explain my personal take on time-travel, but suffice to say it's *not* one of those four systems. In essence, the TT Saotomes have created a divergent timestream and, in the process, essentially sacrificed themselves to fuel it- they simply "unravel" as they are at that point and will be replaced by the new timestream's versions of them at the point in time from which they originally came.

Say they travelled in time from August 1993 to April 1992 and did what I just described; this would cause time to split so that there are two timelines- in one, Ranma & Genma never met the mysterious "Guardians of Jusenkyo" and were cursed, in the other they did and thus weren't cursed. Once Ranma & Genma bypassed Jusenkyo, TT Ranma & Genma would cease to exist as the timestreams realigned themselves, simply being "glossed over" as a fine detail by reality.

[KonokoHasano]

But if a divergence was created, TT Ranma and Genma would still exist because they AREN'T rewriting themselves and have created a different timeline while still having their own to go back to. The timeline would just branch off at that point.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I may not have made it clear enough: TT Ranma & Genma are burning their own chronal energy to *create* the time divergence. They essentially exist in a smaller tertiary timeline that is written out of existence as reality rewrites itself. The original and divergent timelines are two parts of a brick, and the TTs exist in the part shattered to split the brick into parts.

To conclude, the fate of the TTs is of no interest or concern to me at this point. What I came her asking for advice on is what happens to the *real* Saotomes- what happens to Ranma & Genma once they are warned off Jusenkyo and head to Jokestuzoku as males but without a translator?

[Heaven's Deamon]

Think of it this way: When they first go back in time, it causes a slight divergence, but the events that would allow them to go back in time are, at that point, still possible. When they get their counterparts to avoid jusenkyo the timelines diverge to a point where reality tries to pull them back into their original one. Whether it succeeds or not we wouldn't know, but they still vanish from the current one regardless.

[claymade]

It's kinda funny; in terms of what would happen were the Saotomes to show up at the Amazon's uncursed, I once speculated much the same chain of events in another old thread. In my case, it was Ryouga doing the same thing as the time-travelers are here for--showing up and stalling the Saotomes with a fight before they hit Jusenkyo.

Yours is a slightly different setup, of course. But even there you've still got Ryouga wandering around that exact same area at the exact same time, specifically hunting for Ranma, and this time Ranma isn't going to be in the mood to be knocking him off cliffs to get at Genma. As such, much the same thing could happen, so for what it's worth, here it is:

http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114045#114045

However, there's a key problem with it, as jasonkjay has already alluded to. The above was an exercise in fixing Ranma's life, done as the denouement of a fic. You're positing this as the start of a fic, but at the same time, you're removing some of the chaos and tribulation.

In my experience as well, fics that start out by making a plot less conflict-ridden also tend to make said plot correspondingly less interesting as well. The basic rule of thumb I try to follow is: "any change to the basic parameters of a world done in the first two-thirds of a multi-chapter work should quickly result in at least as much hell for the primary characters as it alleviates--and preferably much more."

Even more generally, I don't really see what the spirit behind this fic is. I mean, you say yourself that the time traveling is just a means to enact the what-if of the Saotomes not getting cursed--"of no interest or concern" to you beyond that.

(Incidentally, a plot element like time travel is a lot of baggage to take on for something so simple. You might want to consider just forcing the "what if" by authorial fiat, like most fics do.)

Anyway, the question you want to ask yourself is: is there anything more to this fic idea beyond "what if Ranma never got cursed"? To be frank, there's not really much intrinsic pull in just that. As I said above, it actually decreases the conflict, decreases the amount of interesting possibilities.

Thus, it's not enough just to work out "what would happen in such a situation?" You need to enact something that is impact-laden and conflict-ridden enough to form the core of a story, and given that the removal of the curses only removes conflict, it's likely going to have to be a change that's largely orthogonal to any of the changes that you've introduced so far. Most likely created, not extrapolated from anything so far.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Thank you for clearing that up Heaven. Besides, like I said before, the time-travellers are unimportant to this story- this is an examination of how things might have realistically changed if Ranma & Genma had somehow been warned off of Jusenkyo.

My vague idea of post-warning events is that the Saotomes would wander into the Joketsuzoku village sooner or later, and would most likely repeat their original mistakes of eating the prize for the yearly tournament. This time, however, they don't have the guide to translate, so they haven't the faintest clue what the angry blue-haired girl is saying.

When the villages realise these strangers don't speak a word of their language, they'll get someone who does speak Japanese -most likely Cologne- so she can interrogate them and find out what the hell they want. Most likely the conversation would reveal to them that they just ate the prize for a fighting tournament, and Cologne would learn they are travelling martial artists who came seeking to study there.

I don't know for sure whether or not Shampoo and Ranma would end up duelling to "pay" for the food Ranma & Genma ate, but if it did happen, Shampoo would definately not be able to hand out the Kiss of Death (Ranma being a guy and all) and it's likely that she mightn't be able to pass out the "Kiss of Marriage" either, though I can't explain why off the top of my head.

It seems likely to me that Ranma & Genma might stay in the village for a while, until something comes along that gives them reason to leave (for example, if Ranma & Shampoo had to duel for the tournament and Shampoo's feelings for Ranma after she lost became affection rather than envy/jealous hate, or Cologne suggesting that Genma marry his son to her great-granddaughter in order to "prove his worthiness" for training in more advanced techniques), but I don't entirely know what would develop from that (beyond Ryoga not getting pushed into Jusenkyo- though given the Lost Boy's luck he'd probably fall in on his own anyway). Or what'd happen once they got back to Japan and Genma brought Ranma to the Tendos.

[Penguin-sa]

Apologies, I did not catch the thrust of your question. Penguins can be very obtuse birds. I just like time travel stories when they deal with the logical ramfications.

As for the Saotome's fate when they go to Joketsuzoku without the guide, don't you think the most likely initial response would be the Amazons detaining the pair for at least questioning. After all, they do not have the sanction of the Guide accompanying them and two males are far mor troubling than one short girl and her panda. You could develop this conflict into a much more antagnonistic relationship between the Saotomes and the Amazon, maybe even a feud.

The ramifications of an uncursed Ranma extend through the whole series. Ryoga should be much less hostile. Nabiki is the most likely Tendo fiancee (given the interest she showed in the first volume). Claymade is correct when stating that a lot of the conflict in Ranma 1/2 is directly or indirectly caused by the curse. Redoubling the Amazon problem might be an adequate substitute.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Penguin-sa, why would they detain the Saotomes for simply being there? I already suggested that the whole "eating the prize" thing would earn them some trouble, but also they'd be kept there until they could find someone to find out just who these nuisances are. Not to mention Ranma & Genma will, at first, *want* to stay at Jokestuzoku in order to study its techniques.

In liue of claymade's well-written (if personally incomprehensible) post, some vague ideas on chaos and tribulations that could afflict Ranma if he was never cursed.

Well, Ranma can't become the simultaneous target of Tatewaki's affection and hatred, can't sub for Akane in Martial Arts Rythmic Gymnastics and can't be nominated as Picolet's bridal candidate. All loses. However, in the gain's column...

It's generally believed Akane would have been less hostile towards Ranma if he'd shown up uncursed, or at least in male form. However, what if she'd actually been *more* hostile? As a sex-changer, Ranma was a freak and a pervert. As a straight boy, however, he is, quite simply, Akane's natural enemy. His gender, coupled with the harrassment she receives, means she'd be wary/leery of him to begin with, but couple that with him being engaged to a Tendo girl *and* more powerful than Akane herself, and I think she'd trust him even less.

Speaking of the engagement, with no curse to make them balk, Kasumi and Nabiki won't be pushing Ranma onto Akane. With Kasumi being disinterested in younger men and Nabiki actually being somewhat enthusiastic about the idea, the engagement would thus default to her. Akane might have hit Ranma whenever he did something she disapproved of, but Nabiki -as proven by the appropriate storyline- will manipulate, use and essentially abuse him with equal readiness for both fun and profit.

What's more, what if Akane becomes even more aggressive/violent towards him due to a desire to "protect" her sister from Ranma? This means Ranma could very well be likely to get a beating whenever *Nabiki* gets him into some scrape or another.

Technically, Kuno has no reason to hate Ranma if he's not Akane's fiance... but what if the Black'n'Blue Blunder, seeing Akane's dislike of Ranma, decides to try and impress Akane (though he'd likely justify it to himself in a different way) by declaring a "crusade" upon Ranma- which makes him an even more dedicated enemy than he was before.

Ryoga isn't going to get pushed into the springs by Ranma this time around... but that doesn't mean he couldn't end up cursed and mad at Ranma anyway. Remember, he blamed Ranma for his being cursed in the first place despite not knowing that it really was Ranma who had pushed him in- there's absolutely nothing stopping him from doing the same if Ranma truly is innocent. In fact, he might hate Ranma even more when it turns out Ranma wasn't anywhere near him. If Ryoga ends up leaving Jusenkyo after being cursed without running into the guide, he mightn't even know how to change back- which would make him even more furious. Imagine Ranma's problems if this Ryoga wanders into Nerima with a cat curse- or a girl curse (in which case he could probably be as expert with anger-based ki shots as the canon version is with the Shi Shi Hokodan). Ranma teaching him how to change back might help mollify him somewhat, but he'd probably be Ranma's most implacable enemy.

If, as I mentioned before, what makes Genma decide to head back to Nerima is the fact that Ranma & Shampoo seem to be getting too close, Shampoo could also be in a seriously ticked off mood when she tracks him there- Genma might have even caused Ranma to do something akin to leaving her at the altar. In which case, she might be as vengeance-crazed as the early canon Ryoga. In this scenario Mousse might be either seriously ticked at Ranma (for stealing Shampoo) or actually supportive of him (hoping to ensure that Shampoo will come to the arms of her fellow Chinese Amazon).

[Penguin-sa]

My thoughts on the Amazons detaining the two are more or less based on the notion that without the bonifides of the Guide, the Saotomes are just two itinerent males who wander into a semi-hidden village. It would be even worse if they were asking after new techniques. It all depends on how militeristic and paranoid you think the Amazons are. *shrug* No problem with the scenario you laid out, just my take on a possible outcome.

[claymade]

(if personally incomprehensible)

Sorry, it was a bit late when I wrote it. Basic gist is A) time travel seems an unnecessarily clunky plot device to use just to have Ranma not get cursed, and B) there's nothing that directly follows from the "likely progression of events" that makes a more interesting story. To make said story, you'd need extra stuff not directly implied by the change.

It's generally believed Akane would have been less hostile towards Ranma if he'd shown up uncursed, or at least in male form. However, what if she'd actually been *more* hostile? As a sex-changer, Ranma was a freak and a pervert. As a straight boy, however, he is, quite simply, Akane's natural enemy. His gender, coupled with the harrassment she receives, means she'd be wary/leery of him to begin with, but couple that with him being engaged to a Tendo girl *and* more powerful than Akane herself, and I think she'd trust him even less.

...you're asserting that Akane doesn't actually think of him as a boy in canon?

Speaking of the engagement, with no curse to make them balk, Kasumi and Nabiki won't be pushing Ranma onto Akane. With Kasumi being disinterested in younger men and Nabiki actually being somewhat enthusiastic about the idea, the engagement would thus default to her. Akane might have hit Ranma whenever he did something she disapproved of, but Nabiki -as proven by the appropriate storyline- will manipulate, use and essentially abuse him with equal readiness for both fun and profit.

Wouldn't last long, though. As also proven by the appropriate storyline, Nabiki has a distinct disinclination toward maintaining such a situation long-term, and will soon engineer a switch before he can get too close. (Which is also exactly how she treats all her other boyfriends.)

Remember, he blamed Ranma for his being cursed in the first place despite not knowing that it really was Ranma who had pushed him in- there's absolutely nothing stopping him from doing the same if Ranma truly is innocent. In fact, he might hate Ranma even more when it turns out Ranma wasn't anywhere near him.

He might hate Ranma even more when it turn out it was... exactly what he thought it was to begin with?

...or a girl curse (in which case he could probably be as expert with anger-based ki shots as the canon version is with the Shi Shi Hokodan).

Why?

Ranma teaching him how to change back might help mollify him somewhat, but he'd probably be Ranma's most implacable enemy.

If you say so. Personally, I think if he could eventually forgive Ranma actually cursing him, I think he could forgive Ranma not cursing him... but it's your fic.