On, Gimu, Giri, Ninjo and Ranma1/2

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On, Gimu, Giri, Ninjo and Ranma1/2

Postby Zwzn » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:23 pm

http://www.furinkan.com/takahashi/takahashi2.html wrote: Question: Are there any characters whose personality came to differ from what you originally conceived?

Takahashi: The lead character Ranma. I originally intended for him to be a clean-cut, incredibly energetic kid who was into fighting. But, he became somewhat indecisive and picky. I think everyone has those kinds of sentiments. So I think my own feelings of that nature went right through my pen and were reflected in my drawings of Ranma. Originally, Ranma was a neater, tidier, and energetic young man. However, by the time I realized it, he became indecisive and stingy. Even so, I like the more normal Ranma too.
Could someone please explain the Bolded part of the quote to me? How is Ranma indecisive and stingy? Ranma can't choose one of the girls, and he knows it. Ranma also doesn't want to get married yet.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PillarsOfMoralCharacter wrote: As it so happens, Westerners and Japanese both find Ranma's Love Dodecahedron in Ranma 1/2 funny, but for different reasons. Part of why the Japanese find it funny is the impossible web of overlapping and mutually-exclusive promises and debts of honor that Ranma has inherited or had pushed upon him. He's caught in a trap of giri of such scope that it's a case of having to laugh or else you'd cry. One likely reason that the manga and the anime both end on an inconclusive note is that Ranma almost certainly cannot choose any one girl without incurring massive dishonor to himself and at least one other girl (and her whole clan, as well). An additional tragicomic element is added by the fact that Ranma is one of the more honorable persons in the series (not that that's saying much), which his less-honorable foes, friends and fiancees exploit ruthlessly.
For example, Ranma feels he owes a debt of honor to Ryoga for accidentally pushing him into the Spring of Drowned Piglet at Jusenkyo. Gimu leads him to swear an oath not to reveal Ryoga's "weakness" to anyone. Ryoga then takes advantage of this promise to use his piglet form to pretend to be Akane's pet, "P-Chan", and sleep in her bed. And because of giri, Ranma cannot cannot break his word to Ryoga to reveal his deception without incurring a stain on his own honor. (Even though Ranma didn't actually make the promise to Ryoga, but to the neighbors' dog, which he thought was Ryoga's cursed form...)
I mean I have heard many people at this site say Ranma is leading the girls on, but what does he actually do to lead them, and why.

How could he get rid of the girls, and when could he have done it.

How could he get rid of the girls without them trying to kill him after wards?

Edit: I realized this question is very relevant. Which chacters follow On, Gimu, Giri, and Ninjo the best in Ranma1/2?
Last edited by Zwzn on Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby FriendlyEL » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:16 pm

Zwzn wrote:I mean I have heard many people at this site say Ranma is leading the girls on, but what does he actually do to lead them, and why.

While I agree that they would be very difficult to get off his case, I think Ranma does lead them on some with complacence. As people have stated before, during the Contrary Jewel story, if Ranma was really wanting to get rid of Shampoo he could have easily done it then and there by just letting her go on that way. That story there in my opinion is one of the biggest contradictions to the whole "Ranma just never tells any of them because he is worried of what they will do.

There's also the accepting free food from them, which may not seem like much but does still in its own way egg them on by making them feel like he wants them around.
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Re: On, Gimu, Giri, Ninjo and Ranma1/2

Postby Daniel Jess Gibson » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:31 pm

Zwzn wrote:I mean I have heard many people at this site say Ranma is leading the girls on, but what does he actually do to lead them, and why.

He continues to accept the status quo, that is none of them are going to definitely get him, yet all of them have a chance. He lets that stand. And consciously or subconsciously encourages the ambiguity.

Personally, I don't think he's capable of standing up and disappointing any of them, for a host of cultural, social and psychological reasons. That doesn't mean he isn't enjoying all the attention. Just because you're stuck in a situation doesn't mean you aren't enjoying the side-effects. Giri and honor might have gotten him into this situation, but he leads the girls on to keep it stable, with him as the center of attention.

Zwzn wrote:How could he get rid of the girls, and when could he have done it.

The first and simplest way that comes to mind is during the Herb Story, go ahead and marry Soun. Admittedly, getting hit by Galactus is a more likely event, but that would have gotten rid of them. Letting his mom know about the curse the moment he found out she was alive was another way. Yes, she would have killed him, but he would have kept the family honor.

The third is renouncing his identity and going ronin. This would require a type of courage Ranma rarely shows, and it would effectively mean he would have to leave the country. I don't think this technique would work on Shampoo, but moving to the U.S. or Peru would weaken that bond.

Zwzn wrote:How could he get rid of the girls without them trying to kill him after wards?
Now you're getting picky. I don't think any resolution to his problems could avoid massive bloodshed, or a life lived looking over one's shoulder.

Frankly, this is the best reason to leave things unresolved, he enjoys the attention, can deal with the friction and hazards, and resolution is a quick descent into Hell.

That doesn't mean he isn't secretly enjoying the mess.
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Postby Zwzn » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:25 pm

Zwzn wrote:I mean I have heard many people at this site say Ranma is leading the girls on, but what does he actually do to lead them, and why.

FriendlyEL wrote:While I agree that they would be very difficult to get off his case, I think Ranma does lead them on some with complacence. As people have stated before, during the Contrary Jewel story, if Ranma was really wanting to get rid of Shampoo he could have easily done it then and there by just letting her go on that way. That story there in my opinion is one of the biggest contradictions to the whole "Ranma just never tells any of them because he is worried of what they will do.

There's also the accepting free food from them, which may not seem like much but does still in its own way egg them on by making them feel like he wants them around.
Ranma had many reasons for what he did in the Contrary Jewel story, but wanting Shampoo around I don't was one of them. We also know Ranma does not like the status quo, but hides it from the girls in the Valintine's day arc.

How often does Ranma get free food?

Giri is one of the four Ranma follows.
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Re: On, Gimu, Giri, Ninjo and Ranma1/2

Postby Zwzn » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:46 pm

Zwzn wrote:I mean I have heard many people at this site say Ranma is leading the girls on, but what does he actually do to lead them, and why.

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:He continues to accept the status quo, that is none of them are going to definitely get him, yet all of them have a chance. He lets that stand. And consciously or subconsciously encourages the ambiguity.

Personally, I don't think he's capable of standing up and disappointing any of them, for a host of cultural, social and psychological reasons. That doesn't mean he isn't enjoying all the attention. Just because you're stuck in a situation doesn't mean you aren't enjoying the side-effects. Giri and honor might have gotten him into this situation, but he leads the girls on to keep it stable, with him as the center of attention.
Look at the begining of the Valintine's day arc. Ranma clearly is not happy about the attention he is getting. Ranma is not enjoying the side-effects.

Zwzn wrote:How could he get rid of the girls, and when could he have done it.

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:The first and simplest way that comes to mind is during the Herb Story, go ahead and marry Soun.
Admittedly, getting hit by Galactus is a more likely event, but that would have gotten rid of them. Letting his mom know about the curse the moment he found out she was alive was another way. Yes, she would have killed him, but he would have kept the family honor.
Let us try to keep these ideas ones that will Ranma would approve of.

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:The third is renouncing his identity and going ronin. This would require a type of courage Ranma rarely shows, and it would effectively mean he would have to leave the country. I don't think this technique would work on Shampoo, but moving to the U.S. or Peru would weaken that bond..
Shampoo won't care about his name, and he wou;d lose any protection from her.

Zwzn wrote:How could he get rid of the girls without them trying to kill him after wards?

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:Now you're getting picky. I don't think any resolution to his problems could avoid massive bloodshed, or a life lived looking over one's shoulder.
If they are trying to kill him, he has not gotten rid of them if they are trying to kill him.


Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:Frankly, this is the best reason to leave things unresolved, he enjoys the attention, can deal with the friction and hazards, and resolution is a quick descent into Hell.
Yes, he really likes being beaten-up.

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:That doesn't mean he isn't secretly enjoying the mess.
There are arcs that say other wise.
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Postby FriendlyEL » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:30 pm

Ranma had many reasons for what he did in the Contrary Jewel story, but wanting Shampoo around I don't was one of them.

What would you say are the main reasons?

How often does Ranma get free food?

Seems to me that both Ukyo or Shampoo offer it when he comes by their restaurants.

How could he get rid of the girls without them trying to kill him after wards?

I suggested drugging spiking them with a love potion and then somehow getting them to look at Happosai before personally. You get them off your case and you make Happi happy. Unfortunately I have my doubts as to whether or not it would be effective.

But on a serious note otherwise no, I do agree that their's no easy way to get them off his back.
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Postby Southern Cross » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:31 pm

The wedding disaster proved THAT,if nothing else.
What Ranma needs is somebody who can not only solve his web of multiple engagements,but who is also willing and able to do so.Lets take a look at the various engagements in first name alphabetical order:
Akane:Is the only one approved of by both Ranma's parents.Also needs a powerful martial artist as a husband in order to train her up to master level and to help her teach others in the family dojo.Furthermore,since Ranma used the Tendo dojo as surety in a failed attempt to get Ukyo's dowry back,he has to marry one of the Tendo daughters or lose all his personal honor.Plus she happens to be Ranma's true love.
Kodachi:What that psycho needs is to be locked up in a psych ward until cured.Not only is there nothing between them but Kodachi's perverted lust,but Ranma can barely tolerate her.
Shampoo:She treats Ranma worse than Mousse does her,and yet she thinks that her stupid village law overrides all others.Has no honor (as shown by her actions at Phoenix Mountain),plus is cursed to turn into the one thing Ranma fears.
Ukyo:Because of the Gambling King and Soun's actions,no longer has a valid marriage claim on Ranma (if she ever did) plus Ranma considers her a friend and nothing more.
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Postby Goldarmy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:56 pm

Southern Cross wrote:The wedding disaster proved THAT,if nothing else.
What Ranma needs is somebody who can not only solve his web of multiple engagements, but who is also willing and able to do so.

Too bad Ranma hasn’t met such a person yet.


Akane:Is the only one approved of by both Ranma's parents.

Approved? What do you mean approved :x ? Those two don’t approve it, they passionately desire it, for selfish reasons. They have been pushing the marriage down the kids throats with the least concern about happiness of the children and most concern about their sweet retirement, for the whole series.

Also needs a powerful martial artist as a husband in order to train her up to master level and to help her teach others in the family dojo.

Nonsense. Pure simple nonsense. If Soun had wanted Akane reach master level he would have taught her himself, there is also the fact that he also offered Nabiki and Kasumi to Ranma at first.


Furthermore, since Ranma used the Tendo dojo as surety in a failed attempt to get Ukyo's dowry back,he has to marry one of the Tendo daughters or lose all his personal honor.

He also has to marry Ukyo thanks to Genma taking yattai.

Plus she happens to be Ranma's true love.

No she happens to be Ranma’s (who has zero experience on relationships) first sweetheart.

Kodachi:What that psycho needs is to be locked up in a psych ward until cured.
Kodachi is nota psycho, and more of a spoilt rich girl who has used to getting her way since forever. She also has no real role model, a brother who lives in his dream world and a father who makes Genma look pleasant. What she needs is friends to help her connect with normal life.

Not only is there nothing between them but Kodachi's perverted lust,but Ranma can barely tolerate her.

While it is true that realtionsihp is one sided it wasn’t just good looks that attracted Kodachi but also the chivalreous image that Ranma gave her.


Shampoo:She treats Ranma worse than Mousse does her,

Mousse is “Shampoo: 13 years later”, he has been stalking a girl who would rather jump into the arms of a stranger than be with him (in fact she jumped into the arms of a stranger than be with him) for more than a decade. So no she isn't worse

and yet she thinks that her stupid village law overrides all others.


A 16 year old who has lived her entire life in a remote village is showing basic human ethnocentrism, oh how dare she!

Has no honor (as shown by her actions at Phoenix Mountain),

What are you talking about?
plus is cursed to turn into the one thing Ranma fears.

We have Genma to thank for that

Ukyo:Because of the Gambling King and Soun's actions,no longer has a valid marriage claim on Ranma (if she ever did)

Why should Soun Tendo’s actions (who want Ukyo remove from his way of ambitions) matter to anyone beside himself?
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Postby Southern Cross » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:29 pm

O.K. here's an answer to your points:
Akane:While it's true that she may be Ranma's first love,that doesn't mean that she's Ranma's only love-if you ignore the "binding leaves" storyline.If what little I know about Japanese customs is correct,a couple who complete the ceremony (which Ranma and Akane eventually did) are supposed to be eternally in love.
As to the parents approving of the engagement,I didn't just mean the fathers,I also meant Nodoka.She is obssessed with honor,and genuinely loves her son.If Ranma genuinely wanted to get out of the Tendo engagement,she could probably figure out a honorable way of doing so.
As to why I consider her the only true engagement:Ukyo lost her family yatai to the Gambling King.Since that was the dowry and the whole reason for the engagement,that should have invalidated the whole engagement,especially as the Tendo engagement was still unbroken.
Furthermore,Ranma bet the Tendo dojo in a futile attempt to get the yatai back.Since he could only get the dojo if he married one of the Tendo daughters,he would lose all personal honor if he broke the engagement-and Soun knew this.That's the real reason why he let the Gambling King take the dojo,as he thought that Ranma could win it back.
Kodachi:Anyone who throws bombs at innocent people (as Kodachi did in the White Lilly storyline) without remorse doesn't DESERVE friendship.She (and the rest of her psycho family) should be locked up.
Mousse:When he had the opportunity to make Shampoo his willing slave (during the Jusendo saga) he didn't do so,and in fact helped free her.Not the actions of a stalker.
Shampoo:Not only were she and Genma the only two martial artists to be hit by those mind-controlling eggs,she blackmailed Ranma,stealing Akane's dehydrated form,and saying that she would give Akane the Jusenkyo water Akane needed if he would subject himself to one of the eggs.And she threw exploding pork buns at Akane!
Furthermore she has shown no respect for non-Amazons (including Ranma,her obssession),so why should we show any respect for her stupid and barbaric customs?
And while it was Genma who gave Ranma his fear of cats,it was Cologne who pushed Shampoo into the spring of drowned cat.
Ukyo:As I pointed out before,her engagement isn't valid.Besides,she threw exploding oknomoyaki at Akane.Besides,she doesn't really care about Ranma.She wants him but on her own terms.
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Postby lwf58 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:38 am

Southern Cross wrote:And while it was Genma who gave Ranma his fear of cats,it was Cologne who pushed Shampoo into the spring of drowned cat.


Not deliberately. Her punishment for failing to kill female Ranma as she swore to do was a duel over the cursed springs with her family's matriarch. The one she landed in was entirely due to chance -- and the sense of humor of Rumiko Takahashi, of course. Presumably, if she had managed to knock Cologne into a spring instead, that would have also wiped the slate clean. (Fat chance of that happening!)
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Postby Tovath » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:54 pm

Southern Cross wrote:As to the parents approving of the engagement,I didn't just mean the fathers,I also meant Nodoka.She is obssessed with honor,and genuinely loves her son.If Ranma genuinely wanted to get out of the Tendo engagement,she could probably figure out a honorable way of doing so.


We are talking the same person right, you know the woman that was willing to cut off her own son's head.

Southern Cross wrote:Ukyo lost her family yatai to the Gambling King.Since that was the dowry and the whole reason for the engagement,that should have invalidated the whole engagement,especially as the Tendo engagement was still unbroken.


A little kid betting something that isn't theirs in the first place, in a crooked game, is not the same thing as a legely binding contract. The Gambling King never had any rights to the yatai

Southern Cross wrote:Ukyo:As I pointed out before,her engagement isn't valid.Besides,she threw exploding oknomoyaki at Akane.Besides,she doesn't really care about Ranma.She wants him but on her own terms.


and how is that any different then the others
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Postby three headed dog » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:51 pm

Ukyo lost her family yatai to the Gambling King


What does this matter in the least? A dowry is not a requirement to an engagement. People are engaged and get married without dowries all the time. The point of a dowry is not to seal a deal. A dowry is Ukyo's inheritance and is her wedding gift from her family to provide for herself and her children. Also in the event that Ukyo dies without having children the dowry (or something of equal value) is supposed to be refunded to her family.

If Ranma genuinely wanted to get out of the Tendo engagement,she could probably figure out a honorable way of doing so.

There is no truly honorable way for Ranma to break the engagement to the Tendo's since both families appear to be more traditional. Akane can do so any times she wants simply because she can switch the engagement to any other Tendo, Ranma does not appear to have that option. Simply put Ranma is honor bound to marry a Tendo. If he doesn't he and his entire clan can have severe repercussions. Personal repercussions for this type of thing are to be kicked out of his clan, possibly seppuku, shunned by the community, etc... Blood feuds and clan wars have been started over these types of things in the past (clan wars have escalated to civil wars in the past).

Furthermore,Ranma bet the Tendo dojo in a futile attempt to get the yatai back.Since he could only get the dojo if he married one of the Tendo daughters,he would lose all personal honor if he broke the engagement-and Soun knew this.That's the real reason why he let the Gambling King take the dojo,as he thought that Ranma could win it back.


Ranma would lose all honor by breaking the engagement any ways the dojo has nothing to do with it at all. Soun agreed with it because he had previously said that what could a child possibly bet and that Ranma has to honor the bet. Soun had to agree with it or he'd lose face. Ukyo's claim is weaker than Akane's but the Dowry really doesn't matter it still is valid. The reason it is weaker is because 1. Ukyo's father knew Ranma was already engaged to another person. 2. Genma interpreted it to be a modern Omiai as opposed to traditional one (i.e. forced no choice) in which both sides are given a choice and Ranma chose okonomiyaki over Ukyo. 3. Ukyo had already declared blood feud on Ranma claiming that she had to kill him to restore her honor.

Besides,she threw exploding oknomoyaki at Akane.


How do you know she was throwing them at Akane? She could just as easily have been throwing them at Ranma. She did have very good reason to do so. She hasn't seen Ranma in a long while and the first thing she hears about him is that he's marrying some other girl. A normal girl would be very upset and likely to cause a scene at the other persons wedding by if nothing else slapping the guy.

The point of this topic I think is to show the Japanese view point (after all that is what On, Giri, and Gimu are). From a Japanese point of view whether Ranma loves Akane or not doesn't matter. The traditional view of love in Japan was volatile, unpredictable and unlikely to last. A marriage based on love called ren'ai were generally expected to fail (considering that the divorce rate in Japan is 27% for marriages based on love and 4% for arranged they maybe right). Arranged marriages were seen as a more practical solution supposedly based more on compatibility and ability to provide for one another with love not really being a factor. The reason I'm using past tense rather than present tense is because over the last 50 years or so Japanese culture has changed a lot with only very traditional families following the old ways (which Ranma's family appears to be). Nowadays modern arranged marriages can be broken without lose of honor by either side except for very traditional families (because the final say is given to the couple and not the head of clan). I do mean a lot 50 years ago polygamy was allowed, marriage age for girls was 13 until 1995, 50 years ago 82% of marriages were arranged, woman rights have improved drastically, etc...

Mousse:When he had the opportunity to make Shampoo his willing slave (during the Jusendo saga) he didn't do so,and in fact helped free her.Not the actions of a stalker.


That wouldn't make him any less of a stalker. All that means is he doesn't want her to be enslaved to him, rather wants her to want him on her own. He's still a stalker.

Furthermore she has shown no respect for non-Amazons (including Ranma,her obssession),so why should we show any respect for her stupid and barbaric customs?


Whether Shampoo respects others or not does not mean we shouldn't respect her customs. Her customs are deserving of respect if for no other reason than having served her people for thousands of years. Whether she deserves respect or not is another thing entirely. From her point of view Japanese culture probably is seen as barbaric and stupid particularly if she has read about Japanese history with things like a guy was allowed to kill his wife for being lazy just 200 years ago. You should also take into account that being Chinese she would most likely have a bias against the Japanese. During world war 2 the Japanese performed many atrocities to the Chinese for example in Nanjing China during a 3 month period (December 1937-February 1938) the Japanese army massacred over 300,000 civilians and raped at least 20,000 women. That isn't even the worst they did. Germ and chemical warfare, human experimentation, intentional famine, forced labor camps, torture, babies crushed in mills, even canabilism (the Japanese soldiers ate some of the Chinese and allied forces prisoners). In all likelihood Shampoo was taught that the Japanese are incredibly evil barbarians. What the Nazi's did to the Jews is what the Japanese did to the Chinese but on a much grander scale (much higher death toll of civilians as well). There are still people trying to sue for reparations and apologies but as of 2005 the Japanese courts ruled that the statue of limitation has passed. There still is a lot of conflict between Japan and China (though not military other than the Japanese threatening the Chinese that if they attack Japan the Japanese are capable of using their huge supply of plutonium to build nuclear weapons really fast if pushed and quickly would have many times the Chinese amount - Also the Japanese do have an article in their law allowing the use and creation of nuclear weapons if "extraordinary events" had jeopardized its "supreme interests". Which some Japanese wanted to use to counter the threat North Korea represents).

Which chacters follow On, Gimu, Giri, and Ninjo the best in Ranma1/2?

I'd say Ranma follows them the most, though others do some times. He follows them more than the others but he also follows them loosely instead of strictly occasionally because he can't always follow them all since they can conflict with one another and had he been strictly following giri and ignoring the others he'd have had to kill himself to preserve maximum honor.

How could he get rid of the girls, and when could he have done it.


I should also point out that Ranma is a minor (20 is the age for legal adulthood in Japan), which further limits Ranma's options.

A few times. For Ukyo he could have straight up denied having been engaged to her as well as stating he still chooses to not marry her and let her continue her blood feud against him. Other than that he could have convinced her to break the engagement but that would stain his honor to some degree (which is already stained by other peoples actions anyways) and wreck hers even more likely making her go back to trying to kill him (10 year vendetta for not wanting her once much larger lose of face for happening again practically demands retaliation). He could become clan head and make a deal with Ukyo's family. Genma though would have a lot less trouble breaking this engagement than Ranma would.

Kodachi he can't do anything and she isn't technically engaged to him anyways, unless she convinced Genma at some point I didn't see or don't remember (probably wouldn't be that hard).

Shampoo isn't Japanese so really he could ignore it from the stand point of Japanese culture but it would still damage his own personal honor especially since he did challenge her fully knowing the consequences of his actions during the reversal jewel storyline.

The Tendo engagement is harder. Even if he got Akane to break the engagement that would only put it on another Tendo. Genma and Soun as clan heads could break the engagement though.
Last edited by three headed dog on Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Drawde » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:28 pm

One of the reasons so many arranged marriages "suceeded" in the past, is because there was usually no way out, and the woman was practically considered property anyway. It's kind of hard to say the marriage failed, if the woman has no choice in the matter, even if the husband is abusive.
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Postby three headed dog » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:36 pm

One of the reasons so many arranged marriages "suceeded" in the past


The quoted 27% and 4% divorce rate are for modern day love marriages and arranged marriages. Where they go through Omiai and have matchmakers nakōdo and have a choice in saying no.
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Postby three headed dog » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:40 am

If I understand these correctly:

Gimu leads him to swear an oath not to reveal Ryoga's "weakness" to anyone.


because of giri, Ranma cannot cannot break his word to Ryoga to reveal his deception without incurring a stain on his own honor.


There is one step farther Ninjo compels Ranma to give Akane clues that Ryoga is P-chan. Even though giving clues does stain his honor, Ranma is compelled by his feelings (ninjo) to give clues to Akane.

Giri is similar to honor/duty. Ninjo is similar to personal feelings/empathy with others/morals. Those aren't exactly what they are but are analogies. Giri and Ninjo sometimes compliment one another but sometimes they are in conflict with one another. Similarly in Western culture honor and morals can conflict. Honor may compel you to kill someone where as your morals may compel you to spare them. Have to balance giri with ninjo.
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