Sailor Pluto

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Sailor Pluto

Postby WG_Writer » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:54 am

Ok here is a long problem.

First of all we have Sailor Pluto being blamed for forcing CT often in fan fics. I want to propose the idea (as I am sure others have else where) for disucssion that Pluto is doing it, but unintentionally.

We have two confirmed "deaths" by Pluto in the Manga

The first was due to a Time Stop, after that she reincarnated. The original was sent from the future (CT) to guard the Time Gates.

The Second incarnation had a brief death but was resurected at the end of the Galaxia saga. Thus we are still technically still on the same second Pluto incarnation.

My theory is that the Pluto that was sent back in time was this second Pluto so the first and second Pluto's were the same. Because cause and effect are in play Pluto presence in the past starts the path to CT because she was there before. by being her own reincarnation it reinforces this fact thus the decisions she makes were the same ones that put the path to CT in place to start with.

Thus the real guilty party could be said to be Neo Queen Serenity, the one that sent her.

Thoughts?
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:03 am

Um what is CT? And what about Pluto in the Silver Millennium? Are you proposing a scenario where she really hadn't been a Senshi back then if CT is for Crystal Tokyo that is? I might be looking at this too early in the day, I'm just not following your proposal.
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:42 pm

I'm not really following either. Exactly how is she making a decision or taking an action that leads to Crystal Tokyo?

According to manga canon, first she is guarding the Door of Time from Silver Millennium to Crystal Tokyo in the second story arc. Third story arc says she died at the end of the Silver Millennium along with Neptune and Uranus (because Saturn was summoned for whatever reason), and when she reincarnated from that is unknown because it's also said that the Pluto that reincarnates in the present is the one that died in the future. And in the fifth story arc it seems like everyone's reborn in the thirtieth century rather than the twentieth.

Which, where and when Pluto existed is confusing enough without having to figure out how she could have affected the direction that history takes. XD;;
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Noy Telinú » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:11 pm

...

Yep, this stuff is way too confusing.

No wonder no one can get her done right.

So, you're saying its a time loop or something?
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Me? Well, no paradox seems to have happened, and the unaccounted for reincarnation in addition to the retconning might mean that there's some alternate universe thing going on. However, since the "no two objects can be in the same place at the same time" paradox is still a real fear, that makes me wonder about that. But since I'm no expert at spatio-temporal matters, well... Yeah.
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby WG_Writer » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:35 pm

OK, let me re-explain since some people are not following, the cannon I am familiar with says that Pluto had died at the fall of the Moon Kingdom. This Sailor Pluto had not reincarnated with the others because she already existed in the same time as the others since Neo-Queen Serenity in Crystal Tokyo had sent her back to that era to guard the Gates of Time during this period. She had died during the fight with Mistress 9 doing a time stop and her reincarnation had appeared (It was not explained if she had come back in time from the future or just already existed and her powers manifested when the future Sailor Pluto had died.

It is not also explained if this reincarnated Sailor Pluto is the same one as the one that came back, since the other Sailor Senshi we know of in the future are current era Sailor Senshi it is not an unreasonable possibility.

Thus we are left with a paradox. Since The Sailor Pluto from the future existed in current era any decisions or actions she would have taken would be actions that would lead towards Crystal Tokyo.

Case in point. Her DUTY is to kill anyone who tries to use the gates to alter the past, the very thing that Chibi-Moon set out to do. If she had killed Chibi-Usa upon seeing her. But she didn't and as such she didn't when the other Sailor Senshi went to the future.

My point is that because Neo-Queen Serenity in the future sent Pluto back specifically to reinforce a Crystal Tokyo future. If a past Pluto didn't have a connection to Chibi-Usa she might have done her Duty instead of betraying it, thus setting in motion a chain of events which form a paradox, essentially she did send Pluto back because she had done so previously... (Yeah time travel and paradoxes... fun)

Thus the Fanon theory that make Pluto seem like a master manipulator trying to create Crystal Tokyo is incorrect as the real... Manipulator is Neo-Queen Serenity and Sailor Pluto is an unwitting puppet.

Now for the real question, outside the paradox what could have made Neo-Queen Serenity send Sailor Pluto back that would have started this mess?
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:09 pm

There are a few problems with that before we get to any questions. The first is that it would have been pointless to kill Chibi-Usa. Not only would it have not led to or changed the present (the future present, not present present), but Neo Queen Serenity had made sure that it was okay with Pluto for her to visit her at her station. The other is that the enemy in the future bypassed Pluto to travel to the past, and they were actively trying to change it. (I'm only guessing that there's likely to be more paradoxical problems making changes to the past from the future than to the future from the past, which was what Chibi-Usa wanted to do.) Another problem is that we can't assume that Crystal Tokyo is being forced, as it may actually be a result of the natural course of events. I'm assuming (based on the manga) that Crystal Tokyo began about the time Usagi became queen, which was when she was twenty-two, and that could make its founding be at least as early as the year two-thousand. Yet another problem is between the canons, as Pluto dies in the future by stopping time in the manga while that happens in the present for the anime (before Galaxia, of course).

As for the question, I think we would be assuming too much to think that any kind of mess is created by sending a Pluto from the future to be reincarnated in the past. That, and what Neo-Queen Serenity's intent had been in doing so. However, if I had to make a guess, it could have been done to counter what the alien invasion had changed with their arrival, since there's usually some kind of warning in the future (the person affected by changes in the past going unconscious, disappearing, and/or there's something akin to stormy weather). There is a Pluto in the future who can sense these changes, at least in the manga, though which one is anyone's guess ( XD ). So, instead of causing a mess, it may be possible that the intent was to fix the mess caused by the enemy, or at least leave less of a mess behind when all was said and done.
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Moridin » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:58 am

You're assuming that the time gates and surrounding area are affected by the liner flow of time. the gates themselves are probably outside of normal time, unless there's evidence otherwise. I was always under the impression that Pluto had been guarding the gates since before the Fall of the Silver Millennium and did not die until she used the time-stop to save Neptune and Uranus. If as you say she had died at the Fall and a future Pluto took over defending the gates from then until the time-stop. this brings in the problem of there being a split timeline. one with the dark moon clan coming back in time, and one without. unless there is a time-loop where the future Senshi simply lost access to the power they got in later seasons.

There is also the En-tropic Cascade Failure which occurs when the same matter exists in two places at once within the same dimension. If there were two Plutos floating around with the same soul pre-time stop then the CT Pluto could not leave the gates for more than an hour or so or risk....whatever it is that En-tropic Cascade Failure dose. (never claimed to be an expert, but I imagine one of them would be destroyed). It would also be one way to explain the apparent quick reincarnation.

Another simpler theory is that Pluto found a way to clone herself and ensure that upon her death a new body would get her soul and memories. so moon kingdom fall she dies and is brought back as a clone, probably at the time gates to defend them. during this time she looks at various futures, possibly even going to them, and either finds the CT timeline and thinks she should try and drive it to that conclusion. Or someone from the CT future dose a magical brainwash on her to get her to try and direct the timeline to that end. she dose the time-stop dies and gets another clone body and appears again quickly, giving the impression of a quick reincarnation. As for not coming back immediately after getting killed in Galaxia arc is that her star-seed was removed. As I understand the star-seed is part or even whole of the soul, or a physical representation of it. As such she only comes back when Usagi uses her power to restore everyone.

This is just guess work, may even be complete rubbish.
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Re: Sailor Pluto

Postby Zwzn » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:07 am

WG_Writer wrote:Ok here is a long problem.

First of all we have Sailor Pluto being blamed for forcing CT often in fan fics. I want to propose the idea (as I am sure others have else where) for disucssion that Pluto is doing it, but unintentionally.

We have two confirmed "deaths" by Pluto in the Manga

The first was due to a Time Stop, after that she reincarnated. The original was sent from the future (CT) to guard the Time Gates.

The Second incarnation had a brief death but was resurected at the end of the Galaxia saga. Thus we are still technically still on the same second Pluto incarnation.

My theory is that the Pluto that was sent back in time was this second Pluto so the first and second Pluto's were the same. Because cause and effect are in play Pluto presence in the past starts the path to CT because she was there before. by being her own reincarnation it reinforces this fact thus the decisions she makes were the same ones that put the path to CT in place to start with.

Thus the real guilty party could be said to be Neo Queen Serenity, the one that sent her.

Thoughts?

It's more an anime thing. In the anime Pluto is sent back in time in season 3 by Neo Queen Serenity after being given an undefined orders that she states will lead to Crystal Tokyo, and in the season 2 Pluto pretended to not be expecting Sailor Moon and company in spite of Chibi-Usa telling Pluto what she was going to do, and let Neo King Edymond use to gates of tim to mind rape his past self.

In both the manga and anime the senshi are willfully perpetuating a predestine paradox.
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