Rate of Change in Sunshine Temple's Stories

[Konsaki]

The image above is a visual representation of the exponential rate of change I've seen in many of Sunshine's stories.

As you can see, for the first while, the rate of change grows but is still relatively close to the original state compared to the latter part of the graph. At some point in her stories, it seems Sunshine takes the rate of change and throws it full throttle. At that point, my interest in the story takes a dive as I start finding it hard to relate to the characters involved.
Now, don't jump to conclusions and think I hate change, since that's not the case. Change from the starting point over the course of a story is character growth and fanfiction's entire point is change from the original work to bring out a new story.

This issue really only raises its head in Generation Lost, And If That Don't Work and The Return as only these stories are the only one's long enough to hit this problem mark. All the rest are still short enough that each change is either small in scope or explained in story enough to 'make sense'. I would like to pinpoint a specific point in these stories but, due to the nature of the problem, it's almost impossible to do without fully rereading the entire story.

This post serves two purposes, to share my critique with Sunshine and to garner discussion with other reader's opinions on this matter.

[Sunshine Temple]

Hmm. That's a good model.

I will agree that the story has to start with a small amount of change and has a time to "settle" into the worldview.

And then once that settling happens events come out to change it.

I'm not so sure the sky high rate of change keeps going on in all my stories.

In Gen Lost, that has certainly happened. (Hell part of Gen lost is an asymptotic growth in Ranma's powers up and up)

I'd say that And if That Don't Work, and Return have actually reached a more stabilized point.
(That's not to say that changes aren't planned in the story. But Shinju and Ranma have had their bigger changes behind them).

AiTDW is also more front loaded. Shinji and Misato have major changes right after the start. But for the latter part I'd think the story slope has stabilized after Asuka was turned into Kiko.

Am I wrong? Or have there been major changes that have happened faster and faster after that? Is this just the characters or the setting and events too?

Similarly I'd think Return got a new-normal. At least when Ranma became the brood mother and got her two sisters. Her life kind of stabilized there. Right? I'd say that would almost have a stagnant status quo.

Or are the events with Usagi and the Senshi counting too? Usagi's been changing around with all the Minako armor and the like.

What do you guys think?

[Spica75]

AiTDW is also more front loaded. Shinji and Misato have major changes right after the start. But for the latter part I'd think the story slope has stabilized after Asuka was turned into Kiko.

Pretty much i think. And the changes there are also mostly traceable as consequences of earlier changes(or had obvious or good reasons for them to happen) so it works out somewhat decently anyway. Cant say i see a problem with it.

Similarly I'd think Return got a new-normal. At least when Ranma became the brood mother and got her two sisters. Her life kind of stabilized there. Right? I'd say that would almost have a stagnant status quo.

Or are the events with Usagi and the Senshi counting too? Usagi's been changing around with all the Minako armor and the like.

Everything in a story counts! Especially if you spend many thousands of words on them.
And The Return definitely felt like it went off the scales in some places.
It´s a fair while since i read it but i do recall that Ami´s activities totally threw me for a loop, and some of the senshi happenings went enough "far out" to start collecting interstellar travel bonuses. Well ok i´m joking a bit since i´m no good at giving constructive critique(so dont take offense and do note that i did read it and i dont read stuff that sucks)...
But in this story i think Konsaki probably at least has a point to some degree. The story developed and then seemed to occasionally have randomising dierolls affecting either characters or events and background.

Havent read Generation lost so can´t comment on it.

[Sunshine Temple]

Pretty much i think. And the changes there are also mostly traceable as consequences of earlier changes(or had obvious or good reasons for them to happen) so it works out somewhat decently anyway. Cant say i see a problem with it.

What is nice is that story is at it's core a "For want of a nail." Where all the changes come from the whole "Russians Nuke the Third Angel". That's not to say that there aren't more changes... just not as much for the Anayami and Kiko.

Everything in a story counts! Especially if you spend many thousands of words on them.
And The Return definitely felt like it went off the scales in some places.
It´s a fair while since i read it but i do recall that Ami´s activities totally threw me for a loop, and some of the senshi happenings went enough "far out" to start collecting interstellar travel bonuses. Well ok i´m joking a bit since i´m no good at giving constructive critique(so dont take offense and do note that i did read it and i dont read stuff that
sucks)...

Heh, no offense. I will say that the Senshi are more... eldritch than the demons. There is a plan for how the Senshi have fragmented and their changes. Not sure I'll be able to pull it off, but there is a culmination with Usagi in the works.

But in this story i think Konsaki probably at least has a point to some degree. The story developed and then seemed to occasionally have randomising dierolls affecting either characters or events and background.

But does it keep going with a faster and faster pace of changes? That's a part of Konsaki's chart.

I'm not so sure on that.

[PCHeintz72]

I've been busy these last few days so have not commented much (marathon session of resetting from scratch 2 computers with Win7 and IE10 and updating two RAID 5 NAS devices), and I miss this unfolding...

I will say I have not had the time to read all the reviews in the Generation Lost thread or here but get the overall situation I think. Here are some thoughts... take them for what you will.

I both agree and disagree with the premise of this thread. And I'll say I think I disagree with how this is being handled, not by the author, but the readers.

What some seem to fail to see is that while authors may or may not at their discretion take advice and allow for corrections from readers... it is their story, not the readers story, to be told their way... They know where they want to go, and it may or may not be where readers are expecting it to go.

I think a lot of this simply boils to tolerance level of change. When and how fast does a character change too much given the circumstances so you no longer like them, and as follows the story built around them.

I generally do not like to leave too bad of a review in regards to plot or changes brought by an author. Not just because it not only sits wrong with me, but by the time a story drifts so far off the norm from what I like, I'd rather simply stop reading.

Of the stories by Sunshine Temple I have read (no particular order)...

Generation Lost
- I liked this up until a little after Ranma was remolding her whole core personality due to the hack... At the time I had thought that this was ingenious on both the part of the author and on the part of Ranma considering the situation... It was only after that point though it when directions I did not overly care for, I've had to struggle to generate the interest to read the chapters after that.

And If That Don't Work
- I'll state from the start I stopped reading that one fairly early on due to it not really catching my interest, not out of any lack of quality in the writing. But I disagree with the thought of that Graph applying to that story. It started out with a fairly large number of changes then flattened out, at least of what I did manage to read.

The Return
- I've been following this clear since the introduction of chapter 2... I had seen the 1st chapter but felt there was too little to determine whether to follow or like or not. I've commented many times on it in update threads. This is definately one of the longer Ranma sagas out there. I call this type of sage or story an Extreme AU, as the backdrop is so changed as nothing of canon occurs even if it uses canon characters. The Return has clearly had its ups and downs in regards to that graph... it certainly is long enough. Overall I've liked the ride, even if some aspects never overly appealed. However I'll admit I've been losing interest the last few chapters, it is not the lock (Ranma has been locked for quite a long time now), or the attitude (I happen to like a more intelligent and vicious Ranma), or even the outrageousness of some of the antics and enemies, or even how some things Ranma puts up with I feel she simply would not...) The thing is the overall feel of the story seems different. If I had to trace it back to a specific even it was probably where Ranma started dating guys, not the event per se even if jarring, just the feel seems to have changed since that point for me.

Strained Harmony
- I actually do think it long enough to qualify for the grid. I liked this story... all the changes in character, personality, the way the scenes flowed, etc... all were fine with me up until about the time of the transformation and the images. I simply could not resolve my view of that Ranma with that transformation. After that the speed of the changes seemed to accelerate.

Sunshine Temple is free to take his stories anywhere he wants... the writing itself is good, the plots are pretty well thought out, attention to detail is great, and constructive input from readers is accepted to a pretty great degree... But if that direction takes it in a direction or faster than readers want, it is up to the reader not to interfere once the hammer has fallen, and then decide whether to keep reading or not.

To Sunshine if and when this is read... whether I continue reading some or all of your stories or not, whether I care for them or not due to changed plot, I do wish you luck with them nonetheless... And I thank you for the enjoyment that they have brought...

[Sunshine Temple]

Very good post PCHeintz72. Thanks again for the comments. I'd largely agree with where the scope is and the big changes are.

(Though one quibble is that Ranma in Return has had only one date with a male. And it was with Bruce Campbell.
(Yes, look at the alias of the guy she dated in that Interlude: Sam Axe ;p)


Unfortunately I have to head out the door, so the rest of reply will have to wait.

This is just a placeholder until I can get my response in.

Edit: And here's my thoughts on your comment. Sorry for the delay.



PCHeintz72. Thank you very much for the well thought out and detailed comments. I'm glad that you've gotten enjoyment from my stories and I verymuch like your comments.

And yeah, if the story doesn't catch your eye, or the story changes and is no longer your cup of tea, that happens. And you have a very healthy attitude about it.

Yeah, Gen Lost also has the whole issue of the years and years of hiatus/dead-fic. Which to be cold shows interest issues on my part as well.

I think you're very right, at it's core And if That Don't Work is a "For want of a Nail."
Every single change from cannon happens due to one event: The Russians killing Sachiel with a nuke.

From there the whole story is the fallout (both literal and the other kind) of that event. I suppose that some of the latter changes could be seen as further divergence. There's the whole Kiko thing, and the Angels themselves.

You know, about Return I was having some worries of the feel of the story. I think I spent a bit too much time with the Russian Cyborg plot arc before getting into the Beachhead plot arc.

Though that plot arc has started up in ch30 and will be seen in ch31 (Yes, I'm tossing a spoiler).

For Strained Harmony what do you mean about images in? "transformation and the images."?

[Spica75]

What some seem to fail to see is that while authors may or may not at their discretion take advice and allow for corrections from readers... it is their story, not the readers story, to be told their way

Always.

And when writers try to use reader opinions it too often results in a much worse story.

[PCHeintz72]

Always.

And when writers try to use reader opinions it too often results in a much worse story.

I've seen this approach, in many but not all cases, if the writer him/herself does not feel strongly enough about the introduced changes or direction, it flops...

I saw one story, done by an author that has fairly good writing, but always favored Ranma/Akane matchups previous to it... he wrote a Ranma/Kasumi match (actually, it ended in multiple different endings), but all but the Ranma/Akane one were written worse than a Romeo/Juliet ending... Author should have simple stuck to what they was good at...

[Dumbledork]

I like constructive feedback from my readers. It really helped improve one scene in "A Wild Horse in Equestria".

In the original version I wrote Fluttershy as horrified when Ranma talked about killing and cooking the Ursa. Several readers very correctly told me that in the cartoon Fluttershy feeds fish to her pets and that Rarity eats eggs. Therefore I changed the change and everyone (me included) agrees that it's much better.

[PCHeintz72]

I like constructive feedback from my readers. It really helped improve one scene in "A Wild Horse in Equestria".

In the original version I wrote Fluttershy as horrified when Ranma talked about killing and cooking the Ursa. Several readers very correctly told me that in the cartoon Fluttershy feeds fish to her pets and that Rarity eats eggs. Therefore I changed the change and everyone (me included) agrees that it's much better.

Constructive feedback with no flaming is almost always fine unless an author has gone on record as not wanting it (WFRose for example was known for not wanting spelling and punctuation corrections). But once a outright statement by an author is made on something is where a lot of readers cause problems by refusing to listen or abide by author decision... it is almost always the decision of the author to determine story direction and plot... If an author says 'I want this'... and the readers insist on going against it... merely creates issues. Aout the only justification for readers going further is if it is categorically wrong for an author to do something... like constantly misspell a word (Nermia or Nadoka anyone?) or violate grammar rules or something.

It is rare indeed I will do something like that, I can think of only 2 such cases in the last couple years where I pushed... but they had extenuating circumstances. One was due to a author wanting a specific event to occur 'just because' that there was no way his AU main character was going to accept based on how it was presented to the readers (not so much that I was against what author wanted, but how author was setting it up was off for the presented characterization), and another case was a author misusing an aspect of the rules of grammar in his story to portray intangible voices audible only to the hero... myself and another were pointing out problems how it was handled (not a problem of what he wanted to do, but that he was breaking grammar rules doing so made reading it much tougher). Neither was an overall direction of the story or the quality of the author, but specific issues.

[Sunshine Temple]

Agreed.

Constructive feedback is great and can improve the story. But as PCHeintz says the writer is the arbiter. Since they're the one writing the story.

I recall some heartache I got on Strained Harmony when some folks here didn't like Ranma's hairdo (lop-rabbit with princess curls). Yes it's over the top, and yes it's very silly, but this is for a Sailor Moon fic. Over the top Rabbit themed hair is a part of it. But the ire was less about the hair and more that I said I wasn't going to argue the point anymore.

Still, the fact is that commentary does show the reader cares enough to put in effort to point out issues that they found.

The flip side is that they do have to convince the writer of the validity of their claims.

It's a shame Windborne never got very far. That's a story that would have fit onto the exponential curve nicely.

[PCHeintz72]

For Strained Harmony what do you mean about images in? "transformation and the images."?

I meant that after the transformation was written, there were a series of images or fanart for the story... that and the discussions on them are what I was referring to... I should have been more detailed, but was in a hurry... In any case, that Ranma was going to get a transformation in that story I pretty much assumed, how it came about, and how it reads and looks and the personality of Ranma at the time, was I thought a bit too much to take in at once given the prior scenes.


As for The Return, I'm still reading, I'm taking a wait and see approach to see if it will go more toward what it was or not... so I've not stopped reading it. While Generations Lost and Strained Harmony I'm teetering on the edge, yet I've not stopped there either, though it is coming close. But as I said not for the latest stuff done in them, just overall form the points in the stories I've mentioned.

And you are of course correct it was only one date with one guy, not multiple, though I never made the connection on the guys name... I did not mean the date per so much as the feel of the story from that point... Not that it jumped shark per se so much as took a curveball. Shrugs, just an opinion...


I take the approach that as much as I may like a story, I'm normally not attached enough to rage and rant if the author takes it somewhere I'm not willing to read. It is not worth it when ones entertainment makes one rage more than real life.

[Sunshine Temple]

Ah Okay I see what you mean for Strained Harmony.

So it's less one particular event and more of how those three stories have progressed that get you? I can see that tone and change wise.

Really Return should have had firmer "booking".

I should have written it so there was a point after Ranma truly became the brood mother ( and Eve too) and had the story "end" there. Or at least have that Book 1 of The Return.

Problem is that Usagi's character arc doesn't line up alongside Ranma's. Hers is going at a different pace. Alas.