The song of Obama's presidency

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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:50 am

I wouldn't say that it's the least imperfect. It's a mess, at the very least. For one, I think the United States was founded as a Republic, not a Democracy. It seems to be a bastardization of both these days. I wouldn't really know since this isn't my area of expertise, though.

And I think Venice (long before the American revolution), as far as I know, beat us to the part where the leader (Doge, in this case) had to give up power peacefully, and without bloodshed, if they lived long enough for a forced resignation by their peers. Heck, The U.S. didn't even impose the two-term limit until... several years after WW2, I think. So they're practically identical up until the last fifty-plus years. But I'd simply argue that there are other peaceful and bloodshedless ways that other governments practice with their leaders, and thus which one is better is relative. Britain's Prime Minister seems to work for them, and a president seems to work for us. I see nothing special about either one.

However, even if Obama managed to handle our current problems as well as could be expected, I still wouldn't consider it a good job. I've more a mind for this:

Declaration of Independence wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I'd prefer a revolution. ^^
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Postby Spokavriel » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:11 pm

Yeah America did well to avoid The Terror.

Crescent America's currently messed up by people in office who are being left in charge but out of touch in regards to their Constituency. I blame the schools not teaching people what the duties of the people in a democracy really are. Heck allot of people are making it to college without even once knowing that the Declaration of Independence called out the King of England on a laundry list of offenses. Sure they have a 60% chance of knowing Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. But surveys have been taken and there are painfully few who know more than that, much less any of the US Constitution beyond the freedoms in the First amendment. Many don't even know that the Miranda rights read off when someone is arrested are actually in two constitutional amendments.

With an uninformed populace the people cannot have power. Without a powerful people the government is left to it's own devices and makes the messes we now have.
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Postby runnerz » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:07 am

Crescent Pulsar wrote:I wouldn't say that it's the least imperfect. It's a mess, at the very least. For one, I think the United States was founded as a Republic, not a Democracy. It seems to be a bastardization of both these days. I wouldn't really know since this isn't my area of expertise, though.

And I think Venice (long before the American revolution), as far as I know, beat us to the part where the leader (Doge, in this case) had to give up power peacefully, and without bloodshed, if they lived long enough for a forced resignation by their peers. Heck, The U.S. didn't even impose the two-term limit until... several years after WW2, I think. So they're practically identical up until the last fifty-plus years. But I'd simply argue that there are other peaceful and bloodshedless ways that other governments practice with their leaders, and thus which one is better is relative. Britain's Prime Minister seems to work for them, and a president seems to work for us. I see nothing special about either one.

However, even if Obama managed to handle our current problems as well as could be expected, I still wouldn't consider it a good job. I've more a mind for this:


Declaration of Independence wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


I'd prefer a revolution. ^^




A Ron Paul revolution?
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Postby lwf58 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:18 am

Runnerz, you just ran afoul of one of the peculiarities of this forum. We have a rule about nested quotes, and that's to prohibit them. I edited your message this time, but please note that I've been known to delete posts if a user does it too often.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:24 pm

But the Declaration of Independence doesn't stop there. So few people have actually read the charges against the crown. Lots of things good and ill can be said about most of America's Presidents but so far we have not yet once had a single Commander in Chief to accrue such a list. So while there may be problems we at least still have allot of good points to work with. Why risk all the good with a Revolution that might not rekognize just what the good parts were when it's all over?

So I'm adding what I think of as the Laundry List or Riot Act and the remaining text after where the previous quote left off. Just some things to consider before you try to topple what still remains the most Free in World History without being an unjust anarchy.


The Declaration of Independence continued wrote:. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

. He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
. He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness of his invasions on the rights of the people.
. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
. He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
. For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
. For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
. For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
. For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
. For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
. For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
. For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
. For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
. For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
. He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
. He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

. In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

. Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

. We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

. * New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
. * Massachusetts: Samuel Adams, John Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry
. * Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
. * Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott
. * New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
. * New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark
. * Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:08 pm

I'm aware of all of those charges against the crown. But I believe the problem goes beyond what can be seen, and extends behind facades of what we believes to be true. I'm no conspiracy theorist, mind you, but I believe plenty of unconstitutional activities occur, that the public isn't aware of. Though that's not to say that there isn't anything evident that we should already know about. (I consider the IRS to be one of them.)

And then there's the fact that our three-branch government has mutated into something that America's forefathers didn't want. For one, the legislative branch is crippled by parties. If they thought it necessary, the American government would have been established with a party system; it was not. And then, if I remember correctly, the executive branch had a more equal standing with the other branches, but was later transformed as the figurehead of the government. Which is just falling back the concept of a ruler rather than just being self-governed. And the judicial branch fails simply because you can't trust anyone to not be biased and interpret the constitution as it should be interpreted. And I can't place any faith in something so dubious.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:16 pm

Of course Unconstitutional things are happening. Every city in the United States with restrictions on Guns against anyone who is not a convicted Felon or Clinically insane is violating the Second amendment. And some have a complete outright ban of handguns in civilian hands. Everything about Politically Correct speech goes against Freedom of Press and obvious interpretations of ways to petition for redress of grievances.

And you don't want to get me started on how many times the 9th amendment is violated in every way possible. Look it up and think about it. When reading the other Rights and really think about what the 9th says.
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Postby lwf58 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:24 pm

As stated earlier, it isn't perfect and everyone knows that. If you know of another system that's better than representative democracy that exists in the world today, then name it.

Please to note that parliamentary governments are just another form of representative democracy. While they differ in detail, they don't differ in substance. People elect representatives who then form the government, and the representatives have limits on time in office and what they can do.

Thus, the governments of England, Canada or Japan (among countless others) don't count. What I'm asking for is another system that's better, since that's what I was talking about to begin with.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:38 pm

Spokavriel:

I think I get the basic idea of what it says. An amendment for banning gay marriage should come into conflict with it. And, if I understand it correctly, it means that we probably didn't need to make amendments 13, 14, 15 and 19 (for example)?

lwf58:

Wikipedia lists the American government as a federal constitutional republic, though.

Anyway, while I generally don't know of any form of existing government that I'd consider to be great, I would say that Switzerland's is better. The system's similar, but it has enough differences to count. (With or without its practice of direct democracy.) It's a matter of performance and policy. Both systems may be water, but the difference lies in its state (liquid, solid and gas).

Aside from that, theoretically, I could come up with a better system; theoretical being the key word since culture, politics and the prospect of a major transition would require a very dire state of affairs to convince people to try it, if easier and/or more widely-accepted ideas aren't proposed first. Mostly, however, it's probably not going to be considered because it would seem to be an unbelievably simple system for it to work, and human greed will fight it tooth and nail.

If anyone's interested in the basic idea that I've thought up, I could start up a new topic, since it's not relevant to this one. XD
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:55 pm

Until the last 15-20 years didn't Switzerland had mandatory Military service for it's Citizens? And they were one of the best armed nations in Europe.

I think someone once said Fences make good neighbors. I think it would be better phrased as Defenses make good neighbors. Because when you and your neighbors can obviously defend yourself and your neighbors against petty crime there is less crime.

On the Constitution you got it right but went a little further than I would with it. Basically it comes down to a clear statement that the Constitution is not meant to restrict or block rights of the people. It is not all the rights they have and Laws in general should be there to canonize peoples rights to protect and make it clear that yes this is what everyone has the right to do but it isn't by any means all they are allowed.

Somewhere over the past 200 years State Constitutions have lost that and have become in part lists of restrictions. Occasionally including the penalties. And the whole idea of controlling by getting nit picky over what people can't do is what I think would make the founding fathers upset with the current nation. Obvious things like Rape Theft Murder sure those are even in the 10 commandments after a fashion. But laws about when it is illegal to make too much noise?

I don't think Obama will be particularly good for the country. But that's the system and he's still better than his VP.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:17 pm

I honestly wouldn't know if mandatory service is good or not, or the alternative, but I do think that having a good defense is good for discouraging military incursions from a foreign nation. And being neutral and practicing non-intervention is also good, to my mind.

That reminds me of a bunch of state laws that discriminated against the silliest things. For instance, not being able to wear a certain article of clothing (that wasn't scandalous), or not being able to wear a goatee, and stuff like that.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:20 pm

There's actually a State law out there that says it is illegal to have ice cream on apple pie.
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