Creative stagnation in the fanfiction community?

[Chirishman]

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with fanfiction today is the lack of innovation. recently a pic of a poster was put up. this poster was endorsing the first ranma/SM fic ever. It made me wonder about landmarks in fanfiction history. There haven't been many breakthroughs or innovations lately. sure there are still good fics but there is nothing really new, nothing completely out there and amazing is being brought to the table. There hasn't been another revolution in fanfiction theory in years. First there was the crossover, then people invented different ways to cross over fics and invented alternate universe fics. then came self insertions which most people do not enjoy now but were a novelty at their inception. Then came the Bet. Gregg Sharp's idea revolutionized fanfiction as we know it. He introduced the idea of creating a desired change with the smallest alterations possible. Using the butterfly effect and taking cues from 'For want of a nail'. Fire was also one of the early innovators with his fukufics. Jared Ornstead was another innovator, he and Gregg Sharp were among the first to use dimensional travel and travel to other fic like universes instead of simply creating a desired element with a big change and then having ranma just wander into Juban. Also the way that they started their fics was unique, they didn't simply start their fics like the show did with a peaceful day broken by something weird. No, Jared's hapless self insert was simply jogging along and fell was thrust summarily into the role of a superspy that he had no memory of being. That element of the storytelling, the evidence of things that have gone before which the reader has to piece together over time is indicitive of a more advanced form of narrative and sadly seems to be nearly completely limited to their work. Even within the realm of Ranma/SM crosses there hasn't been any real innovation. Sure fuku fics are amazing but what's the next step? after fukus and tuxes and suits of ancient armor? is there still room for growth? I think that conciously or subconciously authors are one by one leaving the fanfiction world becuse of the lack of room for growth which was the original reason for most people's interest in the first place.
Honestly, everyone complains that people like Gregg stop writing, but no one is creating anything really new or inspiring. It's this kind of creative stagnation that is responsible for the narutards who's greatest streches of imagination include "what if they were gay", "what if this character died but didn't actually die", and "what if this character was a girl". the only Naruto fic that i find any redeeming qualities in is Bound to Eternity.
I would really like to hear back from you guys about this and hear what you all think.

[Waruiko]

I think this is in the wrong section.

[Chirishman]

you think that "other fanfiction" is the wrong place to discuss fanfiction theory and where the future of fanfiction is going?

[Lord Aries Greymon]

I think this is in the wrong section.

Whilst somewhat true Waruiko, where should it go?
[[Back to topic]]
Hmmmm, while a lot of authors are leaving, some just move to the Addventure, or another series.
As for Creativity? Tell me, how easy is it to be creative?
I know it was hard for me. For years I didn't have an imagination.
Then I found Legos. Later, I found Star Wars. Now? Now I have Dreams that inspire me now and then. And, despite how hard I try, I still have difficulty describing a picture with Written words. (and I think most authors "see" the scenes in their heads like a mini-movie. I know I do.)
Part of the problem with what fanfiction is being made today is likely this:
None of the old authors are there, or willing, to help these hapless morons do something great.
That and a lot of the new authors are just interested in writing sex-scenes between their favorite characters. And I doubt most of the "new" writers are over 15. (I have no idea how old the "old" writers were when they started, but I doubt they were younger than 17 or 18.)
As for the "memories you shouldn't have". I've seen a few that weren't by either of those authors. True, the complexity of those fics were lacking, and I can't recall what they were about. (cause they weren't that memorable)
Another thing, (and one that I've noticed more than anything else) Relative disregard for keeping the Characters "In-Character". With an alternate universe? Understandable. Half the point is to have a somewhat different character.
But with a "continuation" fic? Nuh uh. Not even remotely understandable.
And yet, I've seen a few dozen that do that.
Another thing, and possibly a signifigant reason why most "new" fanfiction is crap.
Hollywood, The Anime Companies, and Network Television keep feeding us crap. Therefore, the "new stuff" that comes out is generally retarded in some way, or otherwise difficult to succesfully crossover with Ranma. (or any-other anime/tv show/movie)
And thus what does get written is crap, because part of it is based on Crap. (I don't mean to be rude, therefore I'll not list what I think of as Crap.)
Two more possibilities. This one applies to any author.
Sudden ideas that you get when you're nowhere near a computer, or writing implements. They're a pain to remember long ewnough to get to something to write them down with, and a bigger pain to remember the tail of the idea as you're writing down the first part. (I've had so many ideas killed because of that.)
Then there's things you haven't seen or read in years, but you suddenly recall part of it while reading or watching something else.
Those are particularly hard to write down, in part because you're generally recalling it all from memory.
Gahhh, I'd better stop now.

[ChasTaro]

When In dought, post it under Miscelaneous

[lwf58]

you think that "other fanfiction" is the wrong place to discuss fanfiction theory and where the future of fanfiction is going?

He is correct. This should be placed in "miscellaneous", which is defined as "Where stuff about fanfiction that doesn't fit into any other category goes." "Other Fanfiction" is for "Talk about all other fanfictions in this forum", which is to say, conversations about fan fiction stories that do not have specific category folders in this forum.
I'm moving this to miscellaneous now.

[Alathon]

I guess I don't really see this as being "the" problem, or even much of a problem. I've never seen things like dimensional travel or the butterfly affect as having any value in and of themselves. They're cool ideas, like any other... but ideas are a dime a dozen. These ideas didn't make metroanime's stories worth reading, it was the storytelling.
What's lacking in modern fanfiction is implementation... and that's largely a function of demographic changes, of the accessibility of blogs, myspace, ff.net, and the like, making fanfiction something that children can do. And naturally with the large number of anime fans who are exposed through child-targeted shows like Naruto, a large percentage of the fans are gonna be kids. I'd go so far as to say that there are probably more good pieces of fanfiction out there, but the genre has exploded in volume and the percentage of good fanfiction has decreased.
That the current teenage generation can't write for shit, and beats the English language like a red-headed stepchild, is a problem in and of itself. And if it seems like they're uncreative and can't actually do anything with the ideas they use, that's another. On that count, I blame today's parents for using television as a babysitter. After all, what greater bastion of stupid, banal, uncohesive plots is there than TV?

[Drawde]

The longer something goes on, the harder it is to be innovative with it. After all, when something's new, ALL differences would be innovative.
As for the older fics, it was a bit harder to get the fics out and read back when it started. Although I didn't start reading fanfics until around 2003, from what I understand, things like mailing lists and chat rooms were where the fics were. You had to actively participate in them to be accepted. The groups were small, and would work with you make a story better (Fukufics and others do, but it's not as common now). Of course, some groups might have a narrow focus on what was allowable, so you had to search for one that would help. It wouldn't work to post a Ranma/Ukyo fic on a Ranma/Akane site.
Now, with sites like FanFiction.net and MediaMiner.org, all you have to do is sign up, wait whatever length of time the site requires, and post your fic. It's easier to get the fics up, but no time is required anymore on c&c. How many of the writers might not have thought of anyone wanting to do so for them. And the older groups kick anyone out who either refused to listen to them, or refused to take their writing at least somewhat seriously.
As for the older authors quitting, there are SO many reasons, all of which add up:
After going through Rakhal's site, I looked up many of the author's webpages. Some of the sites were posted on university servers. The authors obviously left (graduated or dropped out), and the servers were wiped of the old sites. And the authors that graduated probably had a rough few years getting used to living on their own, and getting their career started. That probably cut down on their writing time
On many of the older sites that are still up, the author just got tired of writting. When the time between updates gets longer and longer, eventually becoming years, the author obviously lost interest. The most annoying part with these ones, is the last update you see often says the author plans on starting up again, but was dated two or more years ago.
Some of them, real life caught up with them. Whether it's family problems, military being deployed, or hurricanes destroying your city, the author has no time or way to even write new fics. And if it takes a year or more to get back up, it's really hard to get back into the swing of things.
And then there's the ones that got spammed to death. This is the reason I try to never ask for updates. I've noticed this happening to sites that have nothing to do with fanfics also. The author posted an e-mail address on his/her site, and gets swamped by spam RELATING to their fics. Constant nagging for updates on fics, demands that the author use the spammer's ideas, death threats when the author doesn't, and insults on the author's ideas, the list goes on. The author just gets sick of it all, and quits writting. Or if the author simply removes their e-mail and switches to a new one, they get personal attacks everywhere the spammers can post about it. The problem with these ones, is that the author probably still enjoys writting, but can't stand the readers. Many of these people still write, but mostly on places like Anime Addventure, where grammer cops don't patrol constantly, fics aren't expected to be finished, and if you complain about the way a story's going, you're told to write a branch the way you want it to. I think this one happens a lot, since it can also lead to loosing interest in writting.

[Chirishman]

Alathon, I'm not saying that the butterfly effect was what made Gregg Sharp's fics worth reading, I'm just saying that his use of that technique was an innovation, it hadn't been done before. Setting aside the "the authors are young" issue for the moment, what I'm trying to say is that while there are many well written stories out there and people are coming up with new ideas for stories, no one has come up with new ways to tell those stories. Also, when was the last time a community created a fic as a collective effort like EVA-R?
Greymon I do understand the issue of forgetting great ideas. I have that problem too sometimes so I carry paper and a pencil in my jacket pocket, but that's not the issue that I'm trying to address. Also, I don't think that you should lump all fics with different acting characters together. I can very easily see an "out of character" character in a continuation fic if the fic spans any great length of time. Fortunately, unlike in the manga series, the characters in most fanfiction grow and develop where as in the manga they remain static from story arc to story arc. While this may be disconcerting at first it is important to remember that a fic is not a weekly series but rather a narrative. Sure the current generation is being made progressivly stupider by 'reality' TV and all of that 'crap' but I feel that there are still isolated pockets of hope. Your post kind of sends the message that
A) people forget ideas now and somehow they didn't used to and so i should stop bitching or something like that and
B) Kids today are stupid and will never be able to write for shit so we should camp out the old authors' sites, ignore new fanfiction and not try our best to work together to create new great fics.
I flatly disagree with both of your points. I think you should stop bitching about forgetting like it's not your fault. If you really care that much about your fic ideas then PROBLEM SOLVE. Also, I think that I speak for myself and my friends when I say that not all highschool kids are dumb or poor writers.

[Battlekrome]

age has nothing to do with good writing...
but i think the reason that few authors write anything decent these days is
due to the tripe hollywood and such throw at them
anyone know a movie recently that wasn't plot wise a rip off of something older?
when they are fed stale old plot after plot...

[lwf58]

Chirishman, the last two paragraphs were uncalled for. You seem to be taking Greymon's comments personally, when he merely spoke about himself and mentioned that he thought most writers today are young and inexperienced. Your reply

Sure the current generation is being made progressivly stupider by 'reality' TV and all of that 'crap' but I feel that there are still isolated pockets of hope. Your post kind of sends the message that
A) people forget ideas now and somehow they didn't used to and so i should stop bitching or something like that and
B) Kids today are stupid and will never be able to write for shit so we should camp out the old authors' sites, ignore new fanfiction and not try our best to work together to create new great fics.
I flatly disagree with both of your points. I think you should stop bitching about forgetting like it's not your fault. If you really care that much about your fic ideas then PROBLEM SOLVE. Also, I think that I speak for myself and my friends when I say that not all highschool kids are dumb or poor writers.

does skirt perilously close to being a flame.
Think twice next time you're tempted to write something like this, and reexamine what the person wrote instead of flying off the handle. It's easy to misinterpret what someone has written and reply to it rashly.
If this happens again, you may earn a tempban. For now, I'm letting you off with only a warning because your behavior up until now has been quite good.

[Chirishman]

Sorry Larry and sorry Greymon. I'm in a really bad mood right now because of RL stuff. I also haven't eaten in 24 hours. I'm sorry that I let that slip into my post.

[Lord Aries Greymon]

Sorry Larry and sorry Greymon. I'm in a really bad mood right now because of RL stuff. I also haven't eaten in 24 hours. I'm sorry that I let that slip into my post.

Ahh. No biggie Chirishman
I've gotten that way before. (usually after my computer multi-crashes)
And I didn't realise how poor my argument of "out of character" continuation fics sounded. I meant ones where, a day, or less, after the acknowledged "end" of a series, and a major character is acting vastly different. : I.E. ones where there is no reason for it. Like Kasumi being smarter than everyone else. (though I think I've seen one that did that well.)
Another thing I may be wrong about.
Didn't most of the "old-guard" authors take creative writing classes?, or get help (C&C) from those that did?
How many, if any, of the "legion-of-crackheads" (as in, half the new writers, the ones that are stupid) even get near a creative writing class?
Allso, (sorry if this is sounding like an attack, it isn't meant to) didn't most of the "old guard" read each-others work? wheather to actually help, to laugh at their pitifull efforts, or to steal ideas.
I think they did. (how else can I explain the dozens of "blame Mike Loader" fics? (speaking of, what happened to that guy?) Or even all of those fics based on "The Bet")
How many of the "new" writers do that? If at all?
[[Again, I'm sorry if this sounded like an attack/Flame. I never intend to attack someone in that manner.]]
[[Allso I wish you the best of luck in sorting out thine Real-life problems.
That way you can once again be the calm, collected Chirishman we all know and like.]]

[Alathon]

A) people forget ideas now and somehow they didn't used to and so i should stop bitching or something like that and
B) Kids today are stupid and will never be able to write for shit so we should camp out the old authors' sites, ignore new fanfiction and not try our best to work together to create new great fics.
I flatly disagree with both of your points. I think you should stop bitching about forgetting like it's not your fault. If you really care that much about your fic ideas then PROBLEM SOLVE. Also, I think that I speak for myself and my friends when I say that not all highschool kids are dumb or poor writers.

The point is that the ideas don't matter and never mattered, they never made stories what they were. All these "great, new" ideas that fanfic authors had three or four years ago were explored decades ago in original fiction. In greater depth, with superior characterization and writing, and just plain better across the board. Visit a library and hit up the sci-fi section for novels by authors such as Heinlein and Asimov, who are among the hundreds of published authors who have explored fantastic concepts in fiction.
As for kids today, they're no more stupid than they were ten years ago when I was a kid. They are, however, poorer writers than my highschool class was. Without going into details (you can google for the relevant statistics, and for the various policy and social changes that have likely caused this), the average level of competency when it comes to reading and writing among American teens has decreased. This translates directly into decreased ability when it comes to authoring any sort of fiction, original or otherwise.
As well, this article details some of the issues kids run into as authors better than I can.

[Sunshine Temple]

Even within the realm of Ranma/SM crosses there hasn't been any real innovation. Sure fuku fics are amazing but what's the next step? after fukus and tuxes and suits of ancient armor? is there still room for growth?

Says who? There is always a way to do a new apporach to a basic concept. Fukufics is an example. There are over a hundred of these things, which are narrowly defined, and yet people still occasionally come up with new fics.
As for the fuku to Tux to armor... it's not the uniform. It's the story. The costume is just window dressing.

I think that conciously or subconciously authors are one by one leaving the fanfiction world becuse of the lack of room for growth which was the original reason for most people's interest in the first place.

As Alathon says it was never about ideas. Implementation is everything.
'Lack of growth" is just an excuse.
This is the same weepy nonsene the FFML just went through.
If you see a problem with the comunity then do something about it.
Try to write something (something that is worth whatever new field or new growth or what-have-you), preread and help someone, maybe just give commentary to writers that you like, make fanart for stories you like, or you could even start your own community to try to facilitate all of these things.
However, these things all take effort, and are much harder than writing whiny posts about the problem.