Creative stagnation in the fanfiction community?

[Chirishman]

I meant ones where, a day, or less, after the acknowledged "end" of a series,
that makes more sense, yes i can definitely agree with you there.
Athalon, I'm saying that it doesn't matter if it has been done before in another medium, these people brought new elements to fanfiction.
in mentioning fukus and tuxes and armor i meant that puting ranma in a fuku, having him replace Mamoru as tuxedo Kamen, and having him be a random moon kingdom person retroed in. I was asking, beyond the number of new story telling techiniques introduced, are there new plot devices being invented? People seem to be relying overmuch on tried and true ways to acomplish elements of the story that they wish to have happen, like begining a fic with ranma in transit to juuban via air akane. In talking about he exodus of authors i wasn't talking about lack of room to grow in terms of ideas but rather in terms of implementation. As I discussed previously I think that in the begining Fanfiction offered a proverbial blank slate. It represented an unspoiled new territory where authors had the freedom to trailblaze in whatever direction they chose. Continuing with this metaphore, they set up cities in areas that they found particularly apealling like Ranma/SM crossovers and left alone the swamps and deserts of Moby Dick Fanfiction (it actually exists god save my soul). Things like ffml were trading posts where people could share ideas with one another. I don't mean to in any way demean the fics that are being written today, I'm simply trying to raise the concern that the fanfiction commuinity has lost some of that pioneer spirit. I realize that there is less obvious new ground to cover and that the original gold rush is over, but I really feel that the strenght of the fanfiction community is lessened when authoring becomes more about building a better mousetrap (or Ranma/SM crossover) than inventing a flying lamp (Gold Digger/King of Fighters).
I also don't apreciate my attempt to bring up a topic that I feel is important to how we face the future being demeaned as 'whiny'. I'm not saying "we're all doomed oh woe is us, well I think I'm gonna have a snack". I'm simply trying to share what I have noticed with other concerned parties and get their opinions on the subject. I'm sorry if my attempt to start a conversation a little more serious than "I like these fics" and "does akane look better with short or long hair" has offended you, but I think that you are looking at this way too much through the lense of what you just mentioned about FFML. Again I'm not saying that everyone should stop writing becuse the mine has dried up, I'm trying to rationalize what, to me, seems to be the mass exodus of some of the better writers.

[Lord Aries Greymon]

Your last paragraph:

I also don't apreciate my attempt to bring up a topic that I feel is important to how we face the future being demeaned as 'whiny'. I'm not saying "we're all doomed oh woe is us, well I think I'm gonna have a snack". I'm simply trying to share what I have noticed with other concerned parties and get their opinions on the subject. I'm sorry if my attempt to start a conversation a little more serious than "I like these fics" and "does akane look better with short or long hair" has offended you, but I think that you are looking at this way too much through the lense of what you just mentioned about FFML. Again I'm not saying that everyone should stop writing becuse the mine has dried up, I'm trying to rationalize what, to me, seems to be the mass exodus of some of the better writers.

Was bloody FUNNY!!
Again, I'm sorry if I stated my arguments and counterpoints in such a way that they wound up as insulting/flamish.
But I saw a topic, that I'd never seen before, and actually agreed with several points.
Therefore, I posted on what (I thought) had been left out.

[Sunshine Temple]

I also don't apreciate my attempt to bring up a topic that I feel is important to how we face the future being demeaned as 'whiny'. I'm not saying "we're all doomed oh woe is us, well I think I'm gonna have a snack".

"Important to how we face the future" Can you hear yourself? This is just a hobby. These fics are limited in that they are using other people's ideas.
You are taking far, far much importance into this subject.
The fact that you are getting defensive at me is telling. This isn't the war-room, and what you're doing here won't "save" fanfiction.

I'm simply trying to share what I have noticed with other concerned parties and get their opinions on the subject. I'm sorry if my attempt to start a conversation a little more serious than "I like these fics" and "does akane look better with short or long hair" has offended you

Offended? You think I'm offended because you're "raising concerns"?

Again I'm not saying that everyone should stop writing becuse the mine has dried up, I'm trying to rationalize what, to me, seems to be the mass exodus of some of the better writers.

I never said or implied that you were going for that.
It's interesting that on a post that was much longer than mine that you did not mention the part of my post about direct action. The part that has suggestions on what to do about this problem are ignored.
What are your ideas to solve this problem? Other than the very critical task of getting the opinions of other concerned parties and finding the root causes.
And you use "mass exodus" twice. Real life seems to be the main reason the writers leave, and oh well. It happens. This is just a hobby.
I note that you are not giving much in the way of solutions and are simply raising issues.
There isn't much to rationalize.
But what do I know? It's not like my site has been specifically thanked in the authors notes of new fics, or that it serves as a place for people to get hopefully good quality C&C. And that's noting to say for the writers that I preread for.
I'm clearly offended by serious conversation about a big important issue, maybe the biggest problem fan-fiction faces today.

[lwf58]

This thread is getting a bit heated, it would seem. I remind people to be civil about your debating and keep your tempers in control.
Chirishman, please do not reply to Sunshine's last post. Just let it go and move on with replying to the others. He isn't having a good day either, something you should be able to sympathize with. ^_-

[Lord Aries Greymon]

Mi Lady, (or is is Mi Lord?) Temple.
As to your point of what to do about the possible problems raised, well, I honestly don't know of any solutions other than severe discipline and home-schooling of our (as in, each individual's) own children that isn't outright illegal.
I remember reading through Cloud Dreamer's site, and him stating that his own kids were getting into Fanfiction.
I don't know how he intends to teach them, but it must be helpfull having a parent who loves fanfiction.
As to Alathon's point of most teenagers butchering the English language?
Well, the only simple (#1) solution I can think of to that is to hire tutors, or bash the kid with a ruler every time they butcher the language. (NOTE: I'm not English [and thus find ENGLISH offensive], I'm American born and bred, and whilst I wasn't raised that way [mentioned method], I was raised by people who cared enough to teach me how to speak properly.)
Now for the not so simple methods. (NOTE: while legal, these are slow, difficult to implement, [because the slobs running the schools don't want any changes other than year round schooling] and have a much lower chance of success even if they are implemented.
Become an English Teacher. While technicaly simple, the pay generally sucks, it tends to be both boring and stupid after 6th grade, and the people in power don't want the teaching methods to change.
Appealing to a higher power: Whether this be a God or Goddess, or merely thine local Congressman, it is legal, and can work. It is allso much slower than the simple methods, because you can't strike a congressman/senator with a Ruler whenever they F%$^ up.
As for the Deities/Divine. This is usually very, very slow to work because, near as I know, they don't like interfering with Free Will. (as in, the will to royally screw-over our society for more money.)
Run for whatever office is neccesry to determine the disciplinry, and curriculum systems of your local school. Very, Very slow, because again, the fat slobs currently in power will spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to keep you out of the descision making proccess.
Overthrow the government in it's entirety.
I mean doing it the legal way, as defined in one of our two "Founding" documents. it's described in there that it is legal to do so, though it does not say how. So far as I know anyway.
Doing that will allow you to re-write all the laws. even removing all those retarded ones from the record books. (note: while it is legal, I've never heard of any attempt to do so. either because no-one wants to, or because the current government locks them up under TREASON charges.)
The illegal methods.
Blackmail the teachers, the school officials, and anyone else you can, untill such time as they reform the way the English lanuage is taught.
Beat (as in, with the whole damn UGLY TREE) the people in charge of Education untill they alter how the English language is taught.
I think I'm done ranting now.
NOTE: (#1) Simple, as in, can be started nearly overnight, and has the greatest chance of noticable success within a year.
Sorry 'bout having, kinda hijacked the thread. I think I hijacked it anyway.

[Sunshine Temple]

Yes, you, me, and just about everyone else in this forum cares about Fanfiction a great deal.

I do care. I still keep perspective in that this is just a hobby.

As to your point of what to do about the possible problems raised, well, I honestly don't know of any solutions other than severe discipline and home-schooling of our (as in, each individual's) own children that isn't outright illegal.

Next generation? Home schooling? Large scale, long term.
What of simple things like trying to write better fics? Or helping others write better fics?
As for your advice to Alathon. Even larger, and tangentially related.
The convineint thing with such huge plans is that they can't be implemented by yourself. Makes it so one can keep posting on the subject and harping.
I'm just suggesting that instead of complaining about the state of fanfiction, one simply does something about it.

[lwf58]

Yes, Greymon, you did hijack the thread. That part I'm willing to overlook since it was a reasonable reply to something brought up by another. However, I edited your post because the first part contained something I just told Chirishman not to do -- it dropped more fuel on heated feelings.
I don't particularly want to ride herd on this thread. If there is any further feeding of the flames, I'll delete the offending post and lock the thread. This is the final warning about this. You are all good people and should know better.

[Lord Aries Greymon]

Ah. How true.
Hmmm, helping others write better fics? (this is in a joking tone) I thought I was doing that, though very poorl, as I'm not a good writer myself.
(serious again) True, I only "help" through the review system on whatever archive the fic is posted in, though I have helped one person by providing links to various character bios, so she could get her characterizations better.
Again, sorry for having offended anyone.

[Sunshine Temple]

(serious again) True, I only "help" through the review system on whatever archive the fic is posted in, though I have helped one person by providing links to various character bios, so she could get her characterizations better.

Directly emailing the writer tends to get their attention more. Provided you have a longer review.
That's good any help you can have to improve the fic is good, and make sure your effort is on writers who apreciate your effort, even if they don't implement all of your ideas.

And I'll say this again, if only because it's my common reply to some of the shoddy fics I wind up liking. "The only thing that could make this fic better, In my opinon, is a decent description of the environment the characters are in."
I'll start giving examples of what I mean from now on.

That's good. Even if you jsut say a three point review
1) General imprersion
2) Something that was good
3) Something that was bad or needs improvement
That is helpful. Sure it's not a line by line C&C.
Giving examples is the best.
If possible you can give more detailed C&C, perhaps to a writer that you get a dialog with.
Little deeds to help the comunity will do more than any grand planing.

[Atlan]

About how teens write worse than they used to- well, I finished school last year. In my whole 13 years of school, from a primary school of 120, to a secondary school of 700, I was priviliged to ever share a class with about 4 people who could write well. Out of 70 people, that 5 people (I'd like to think i write well, and compared to the rest of my class i did).
Most teens, even the ones who are about to leave school, dont write very well. I had to go over about 7 classmates assignemts on a regular basis, showing them what needed work, before they handed work in. And that 7 were just my closer friends, not the worst writers.
Litrature just doent seem to hold much appeal to most teens nowadays. If it were otherwise years ago, i'm too young to know. But I read a book a week, or more. Most people I know would be lucky to read one a month, and more than half would be 1 a year.
Checking out FF.net, its iluminating to check the new fics, the ones where the first chapter came out during this year. Here are a coupple i should mention:
A Batman/Ranma/Superman crosover. It didnt even have speachamrks. It looked like a 10 year olds attempt.
A "Ranma stuck as a girl', but fell in love at first sight with akane, who was a lesbian, about 2000 words long after 2 chapters, and generally sucked.
And at the risk of offending, http://www.fanfiction.net/u/682607/ can show some of the worse writing examples. Just look.

[Sunshine Temple]

One problem with your examples is that they're just a handful.
Stinkingly bad fics existed in the "good old days too".
Were they in greater or lesser number (by percentage or raw numbers)?
I have no idea.
But... even if there is more dreck on FF.net, so what? FF.net is easy to get into and anyone can post whatever they want.
Should we care that its quality goes down?
What purpose does point to bad fics do? I suppose it helps with nostalgia. It's natural for people to feel that the "good old days were exactly that".
I'm not saying that they weren't. That's entirely your own choice, but we're not in that past.
The issue is what can each of us do to improve things.

[Valkyrie Ice]

Oh the things I could say. (But won't, Larry, I'm being good.)
There's really only one solution people. Write the kind of fanfiction you want to read. I've taken flak repeatedly for Ranma abuse or that's not canon! and even people who hate Zhu Shu to death, but for every one of those, I've also gotten emails thanking me for writing such a great story.
I hate reading bad fics, and I've read many. And like I've said a hundred times on ffml, constructive feedback is a must. If I read it, I say something, and at times, what I've had to say wasn't praise. But the most surefire way to ensure bad fic stays bad is to simply ignore it. Say something, and say something more than just "great fic!"
I've made more improvements from multi page flames than I ever have from "nice story"

[lwf58]

Something to bear in mind is that the "good old days" included Artemis's Lover by Oscar, as well as the other Oscarfics. Artemis's Lover was voted the worst fan fiction story of 1997, and still deserves to be in the top 10 worst of all time.