Question on Robotech Logic. Soldier mode size?

[Spokavriel]

The only argument I can find for the designers of the Veritech making Soldier mode the height of the aliens is hand to hand potential.

What made them think they would ever be fighting the enemy that way?

Where is the logic in assuming someone who builds space ships would attack bare handed?

What if the enemies showed up and fought using their own scale jets only with more agility than a helicopter? Its not like someone can drop out of space in standard clothes and pick a fight.

Did anyone even think of the potential for fighting enemies in power armor like the Meltrans show up in before they actually end up fighting Quadlinrau forces?

[mondu_the_fat]

What made them think they would ever be fighting the enemy that way?

1) Zor's ship was built with Zentradi proportions in mind. This gave the humans an idea of just how big the Zentraidis would be, seeing how big the insides of the SDF-1.
2) The humans knew that the owners can come around and likely reclaim the SDF-1. They already decided that they aren't going to give it back willingly.
3) If the humans could have made smaller and better weapons, they probably would. Note that a veritech is already smaller than, say, a MAC or spartan.

Where is the logic in assuming someone who builds space ships would attack bare handed?

1) Even modern soldiers are trained in hand to hand, even if most warfare is done via guns. Infantry is still required for mop up and occupation.

2) Who said that humans assumed that the zentraidi would engage in hand to hand? Note that humans were already building giant mecha before the arrival of Zor's ship -- see the various non transforming mecha. Those mecha weren't designed with hand to hand in mind, either, but mecha to mecha. The veritechs had to be able to, at the very least, match that. That the zentraidi were of comparable size is a bonus.

Did anyone even think of the potential for fighting enemies in power armor like the Meltrans show up in before they actually end up fighting Quadlinrau forces?

I'm pretty sure lots of engineering nerds on the SDF-1 were salivating at the thought of power armor like we do, even before the meltrans arrived. But the veritechs already represented the pinnacle of technology of the time. The miniaturization necessary likely simply didn't exist yet.

[Spokavriel]

That last answer is the logic hole. The aliens are on the scale of what the Veritech ends up as. The Tech is clearly advanced. Just the level of technology included in the ship should have been a hint that they could make things compact enough even if it wasn't possible to make power armor all the way down on Human scale. Its almost as if no one who got to hear about anything discovered about the ship was a Sci-Fi otaku.

[mondu_the_fat]

That last answer is the logic hole. The aliens are on the scale of what the Veritech ends up as. The Tech is clearly advanced. Just the level of technology included in the ship should have been a hint that they could make things compact enough even if it wasn't possible to make power armor all the way down on Human scale. Its almost as if no one who got to hear about anything discovered about the ship was a Sci-Fi otaku.

They were available to the ZENTRAIDI, and even the zentraidi didn't know how to make them.

They weren't available to humans yet. By the events of Robotech, the technology was only being scratched at. If I brought a PSP in a time machine to Edison, it would take years and years for him to replicate it, probably not in his lifetime. At the most, he'll get ideas for a better light bulb, maybe a better battery. Yes, he sees the PSP. Yes, he knows that it is possible. But a working PSP even with an actual machine to copy? I doubt it. In the meantime, he'll be cashing in other the technologies he _can_ develop (better bulb, better battery). In the case of robotechnology, the humans are cashing in on better mecha (the veritechs).

Also: scale. You can build a jet engine, but scaling it down? If it were that simple we should have personal jetpacks by now. Just because the Zentraidi can make power armor at their size, doesn't mean we can at our size even if we had the their technology.

[Spokavriel]

1) They didn't know any more about the Aliens than size and that they had a way of the ship being created.

2) Zor's ship is the most advanced unless that's a fannon convention.

3) With the apparent size of aliens and the scale and complexity of technology in the ship how could there be no one to imagine the possibility?

[Lioconvoy]

1) They didn't know any more about the Aliens than size and that they had a way of the ship being created.

2) Zor's ship is the most advanced unless that's a fannon convention.

3) With the apparent size of aliens and the scale and complexity of technology in the ship how could there be no one to imagine the possibility?

Being a Robotech fan I can tell you #2 isn't fannon. That's why the Robotech Masters came after it.

[Knight of L-sama]

The only argument I can find for the designers of the Veritech making Soldier mode the height of the aliens is hand to hand potential.

Your arguement might hold more water if you could prove that they actually intended that. The VF-1's Battloid/Battroid mode was to counter Zentradi scale infantry but that doesn't necessarily equal hand to hand combat. The fact that its main weapon in that form was still its gunpod with the head mounted laser (or lasers depending on the exact model) as a secondary weapon with no sign of something like an upscaled combat knife suggests that they expected the Valkyrie would operate much like a regular modern soldier on a larger scale.

What made them think they would ever be fighting the enemy that way?

They knew they would be facing giants and assumed that there would be some form of infantry component.

Where is the logic in assuming someone who builds space ships would attack bare handed?

There's no evidence that they did. You are once again building a false equivalence. While infantry combat can involve hand to hand combat, it doesn't always mean hand to hand combat.

What if the enemies showed up and fought using their own scale jets only with more agility than a helicopter? Its not like someone can drop out of space in standard clothes and pick a fight.

Its contingency planning that proved to be well founded. The RDF/Un Spacy didn't know the nature of the future battleground or even if they would be able to choose where to engage the enemy.

[camk4evr]

The only argument I can find for the designers of the Veritech making Soldier mode the height of the aliens is hand to hand potential.

What made them think they would ever be fighting the enemy that way?

Where is the logic in assuming someone who builds space ships would attack bare handed?

As was mentioned before, they didn't but that was a possibility. The Valkyrie was designed built to such a scale so that it could engage in infantry combat with Zentraedi infantry (which includes the possibility of hand-to-hand combat). Also, they figured that the aliens would attempt to reclaim the ship and not destroy it from orbit (which is what Breetai originally intended, in Macross, and only changed his mind when the UN Spacey used nuclear missiles on his ships) and, and you can't do that without landing an infantry force.

It should be pointed out, however, that it wasn't meant for long infantry battles but as a fast reaction unit wherein they'd deploy where needed and hold the line until their tougher, heavier armed, and slower brethren (the destroids) could arrive.

What if the enemies showed up and fought using their own scale jets only with more agility than a helicopter? Its not like someone can drop out of space in standard clothes and pick a fight.

They did (the Gnerl fighter pod) it just turned out not to be that maneuverable. And yes they did take that into account that's would be one of the reasons that the valkyrie can fly (in Earth's atmosphere) in all three of its forms.

Did anyone even think of the potential for fighting enemies in power armor like the Meltrans show up in before they actually end up fighting Quadlinrau forces?

I don't think so. Primarily because I'm unsure if they had any examples of zentraedi mecha. At least I don't know of any source which said that they had anything other than the ship's fixtures to indicate the size of the zentraedi. If they had then it's likely that the destroids would have been lighter and faster than they were to keep up with the zentraedi mecha.

2) Who said that humans assumed that the zentraidi would engage in hand to hand? Note that humans were already building giant mecha before the arrival of Zor's ship -- see the various non transforming mecha. Those mecha weren't designed with hand to hand in mind, either, but mecha to mecha. The veritechs had to be able to, at the very least, match that. That the zentraidi were of comparable size is a bonus.

Actually, Mondu, none of the giant mecha of Macross/Robotech were developed nor in developement until after the Macross/SDF-1 crashed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shinji: Well suppose some mysterious entities were attacking, and
Asuka:Oh please, Baka Shinji, that sounds like some cheap, pseudo-profound T.V. show. Low budget. Ambiguous ending.
-Asuka and Shinji discussing why you would build a giant robot. NGE: Shinji Ikari Raising Project Vol.6

[Knight of L-sama]

I don't think so. Primarily because I'm unsure if they had any examples of zentraedi mecha. At least I don't know of any source which said that they had anything other than the ship's fixtures to indicate the size of the zentraedi. If they had then it's likely that the destroids would have been lighter and faster than they were to keep up with the zentraedi mecha.

One of the novelisations mentions them discovering at least one Zentradi corpse and I think there was a brief shot of it shown in Macross (might have been cut from Robotech for ratings issues) but it was only wearing a pilot suit/infantry armour.

[Spokavriel]

Considering the whole scale issue. Doesn't presenting a same scale target just make it easier for the enemy to shoot at you?

Why didn't they try working out alternative combat platforms which could have the maximum possible agility? I know that the Veritech is tops among the mecha for agility but I'm still not sold on the idea that they couldn't have come up with other options.

[Knight of L-sama]

Very little screen time is given to the specific tactical doctrines and whether or not Battloid/Battroid mode was supposed to be a primary combat mode or a specialist fast response force to secure a landing zone long enough for the assorted Destroids to arrive and secure a foot hold in which case they would return to their primary purpose as an aerospace fighter. For one thing Guardian/Gerwalk mode wasn't even part of the original tactical doctrine it was just something that Roy Fokker and his fellow test pilots cooked up in the early tests that proved to be useful enough to include as standard.