Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

[Spokavriel]

But would Ranma have that point of view? Think about it. Did he have any Girl Problems that he knew about before Jusenkyo to give him a fear reaction of them? Far as I can see all those experiences started in the Amazon village. Being hunted for a month or so constantly by an armed female is a major contributing factor in the creation of that attitude.

[Wyrd]

Anyway, I happened across something else that I'd like to explore, that's relevant to the whole ki and mana discussion between the two universes: the chakras. I was reading that "mark of the battling god" story again, where the old man says that one's power comes from one's abdomen, and that it's important for martial artists to focus their chi/ki there. That's where one of the chakra points is, I believe. So, I thought, what if the linker core was the heart chakra? Perhaps the source of energy is all the same, but the output is different depending on the filter? And that's why they may have both similar and different uses and effects? Kind of like being light, except being a different color.

I like the idea of them not being different energies, but different frequencies of the same energy. Focusing through a different chakra produces a different frequency of energy which needs different techniques to make use of it. This could also explain why nobody noticed that he was a mage--people did notice and it looked like he was being trained to use his powers, just in a different style.

An idea I had last night: Ranma does not have to be female to use magic, but thinks that he does. Using the 'spells from Gosunkugi' idea from earlier, he might discover that he can only use some/most/all of those spells while female. It is not a limitation in his linker core, but a flaw in the design of those spells that requires a female balance of energies to make them stable. Near the end of the story, Ranma could rant to Nanoha about how unfair it is that he can only use magic while female, and she replies with something along the lines of, "Um, you don't. I just thought you preferred being a girl, or liked winding your dad up." Followed by an exploration of what led him to that conclusion and Nanoha pointing out the flaws in the spells and how they could be fixed.

I'm just fond of stories where Ranma screws himself over unintentionally, which is a common theme of the original source as well.

edit:

But would Ranma have that point of view? Think about it. Did he have any Girl Problems that he knew about before Jusenkyo to give him a fear reaction of them? Far as I can see all those experiences started in the Amazon village. Being hunted for a month or so constantly by an armed female is a major contributing factor in the creation of that attitude.

I was under the impression this was being written from a point into the series, that the lack of linker core while male was just to explain it not being noticed while, as a child, he was travelling all over the place and studying at so many temples that the odds are high of his running across an actual mage who could have noticed his core. I could be misinterpreting Crescent's plan, though.

[Spokavriel]

I was bringing it up more as a counter to the whole locking at the springs idea.

[Makoto]

But would Ranma have that point of view? Think about it. Did he have any Girl Problems that he knew about before Jusenkyo to give him a fear reaction of them? Far as I can see all those experiences started in the Amazon village. Being hunted for a month or so constantly by an armed female is a major contributing factor in the creation of that attitude.

It was just an example, you know. Besides, Pale Wolf primarily meant it as a joke.

[frice2000]

B5: it's common for Ranma to, of his own free will, use his female form to accomplish something, such as trickery for fun, spite or battle, or charm to get free/extra food/treats (Ranma 1/2 fact) = magic has many more potential new uses, so I don't see why he wouldn't mind being a girl to take advantage of it; especially if he can incorporate it into a fighting form

While all of this is true you don't think the cannon Ranma is going to jump at the chance for a cure if one is dangled in front of him? Sure his cursed form will be able to use magic in this scenario you've created however if he came across people who can use magic like he now can in his cursed form he's not going to ask them to at least attempt to cure the curse? This could be easily dealt with by them just saying they need to research it or something but still that should be present. Regardless of the other problems I might or might not have with this concept don't just go running into complete acceptance of his cursed form regardless of story.

You've brought up Ozz and that's a relatively good example. He likes his Ranma-chan fics and so do you and likely most of this board and that is fine. I like Ranma-chan fics too. The problem that a lot of Ranma-chan fics have, and yes including some of Ozz's and a lot of other good R-chan authors, is that Ranma the character needs to change to get to the point of accepting his female form. Using it because he is stuck with it does not mean he likes it regardless of Ozz's points to the contrary. Yes, he's proud of it, yes he uses it for free food, yes he mildly accepts it in the end of cannon, yes he'll be offended if the form isn't considered beautiful, but none of that means he wouldn't get rid of it if he could. And in this scenario you crafted he'll likely be more proud of it and want to learn magic but that doesn't mean he won't still detest it because it's not the form he was born in. This attitude can change but that changing needs to be explored for it to be a good example of the sub-genre in my mind and far more importantly a good realistic journey for the character in general. You can't just go: "Oh he likes being a girl because he got a cool power-up deal with it!". That is lazy writing and in the end is never as fulfilling as a good exploration of how a very male and proud character gets to the point where he'll either accept his new form with open arms, or in extreme cases reject his original male form. This is not an easy thing to accomplish really but it can and has been done in the past. The problem is you seemingly think it can be done as a matter of course for the story and while it can the story won't be as sophisticated as it could be without some dramatic beats over the change. That doesn't have to dominate your story concept but it needs to be there as it's a huge character change and that is something far too many Ranma-chan writers forget to their stories detriment.

In terms of this story Nanoha/Fate interactions with Ranma could lead to grounds for this acceptance. But you don't seem to be wanting to go that route. I'd read the story because I've enjoyed your other works but if you really want to grow as an author moving beyond the simple idea that Ranma wants to be a girl and into the more cannon, he doesn't want to be a girl but he enjoys aspects of the curse mindset would make your stories a lot more enjoyable. You've got a LOT of possible built in drama here. A Ranma that is immensely more strong in his new cursed form. She can wipe the floor with his male side. How is that going to affect the guys ego? How will he feel about all of his training in the end being useless thanks to the new discovery of magic? Can he take what he knows of physical training and convert parts of it to his new magical vocation and talent? Can he deal with wanting to be stuck in his female form so that he can use the magic more offensively successfully? What about his new friends they only know him as a girl that can use magic strongly not about his weak male form? How will he deal with not being at the top of the heap of magical users? Etcetera etcetera. There is a lot of drama and story ground you create by not having him blindly accept the new form.

[Wyrd]

Another option: A recent Ranma x Naruto cross I read had chakra be a mix of ki and magic. In that story, whenever he gets exposed to large amounts of magic, his curse activates, turning him into a girl. The water trigger still works, but he can't go five minutes standing near Naruto without all of the demonic energy in the boy turning him into a girl. What if you took this idea and said that whenever he uses magic, it causes him to change into a girl? When he learns to master the power he will be able to switch back and forth at will, but until he gains that mastery he will be forced to spend a lot of time as a girl, around powerful female warriors who aren't fiancees(unless you want to go with a romantic cross as well) and in a society where people capable of changing shape is completely accepted. This could lead to him accepting his female side as being sufficiently desirable that he willingly spends time in it after he finally has the option of changing only when he wants to.

[Pale Wolf]

Ranma being a mage from the start is vanilla, a one-way street, a cloudless sky, expected, typical, done. Ranma ends up being a mage because he assumes Nanoha's role has been done. Ranma's curse being a mage (Fate) has been done. I haven't encountered Ranma becoming a mage because his cursed body happened to get lucky. (Get your head out of the gutter!) The way that I see it, it starts as a Ranma story where he's one of the many people on Earth who doesn't happen to be a mage. He'd have to be very lucky for that not to have been the case, so I'm actually meeting this MSLN truth halfway, as a sort of nod-and-I-know-you're-there, by giving him another chance with unknown odds and coming out a mage. And, hey, it matches: not only would he be a boy and a girl, he'd also be a mage and a non-mage. Really, I don't know what else to say except I simply don't understand what the problem is. Seems like one of those something-from-nothing issues, to me.

Well... how do I put this... as a serious writer, one limits the amount of zany coincidences. Fiction has the demand of being more realistic than reality, because fiction, we have to suspend disbelief. Wierd quirks of probability are not to be entirely avoided, but you have to think what you're getting from them. Limit them, because every one puts a higher burden of suspense of disbelief on the reader, and sooner or later, you're going to break them.

For instance, the quirk of probability of 'Ranma being a mage'. Low probability, but acceptable. There wouldn't be a story without that. You leap from the fantastical and follow pretty much pure in-story logic after that - people do this particular action for reasons of their own, this particular thing happens because it's not just a wierd quirk or a strange new thing being introduced, but because it's a natural outgrowth of prior events in the story.

Option B, the 'Jusenkyo makes ye a mage' theory, has zero quirks of probability, and thus no suspension-of-disbelief burden, and does make Ranma have to be female for various purposes in your story... but as has been pointed out, creates a rather massive glaring plot device that is gonna twitch a lot of people when not used.

Now, your option... it basically has all the low probability of 'Ranma being born a mage'. So you are putting a burden on SoD. Now, is it worth it? What are you getting out of it? A five-minute reference to 'yay, I've done something other fics haven't yet, because I went to arcane and wierd places'?

I mean... 'It's been done?' Not to put too fine a point on it, but the word 'the' has been 'done' too. We don't cast off 'the' because it's been done. It works.

There is nothing new under the sun. Only different ways to do the same basic thing. Don't look at whether it's 'been done', look at whether it works.

'course, I'm arguing from the same position Muramasa is, so I suppose it's no surprise we're more or less in agreement. I'm assuming a serious fic, rather than a Ranma-style romp of randomness.

I guess. XD I was considering that, since it seems like the idea where he's a mage, but with more aptitude as a girl, has been better received than the idea that I prefer. But I wondered if people would really buy that. He's usually not that insightful about such things, and making him a bit more mature seems like a bit of a cop out, even if that'd better suit him in a MSLN setting. I was hoping to make his behavior as IC as possible... even though people have a lot of varying ideas of what is IC for him. *Sighs*

Well, sure, he's not the most insightful bunny around, but it's not like after a year or more of this, he can't get the idea to try something new, like being a girl around the vast amount of girls.

... The vast amount of girls who fanon claims are lesbians... (Is it truly Ranma if it doesn't backfire? )

[Wyrd]

The vast amount of girls who fanon claims are lesbians

Not just fanon on Nanoha x Fate. They were never allowed to put it in the actual show, but the creators have admitted to it in interviews. I don't know about the rest of the cast, I've only heard about that particular pairing, but I agree: if Ranma tries being a girl specifically to keep girls from going after him, it has to backfire in some way or it just isn't true to Ranma 1/2. Especially if some of the girls notice that 'her' eyes occasionally wander a bit when 'she' thinks they aren't looking. Ranma is a superhuman martial artist with a high degree of incentive to learn some massive self-control in that area, but he is also human, and there are limits on how far that self-control can go...

[Fitzgerald]

"CrescentPulsar"B2: Ranma was not shown to be a mage (Ranma 1/2 fact) = we now have a definite explanation for why he has never encountered anyone on his training trip that could have recognized and thus told him of his magical aptitude for most of his life (prior to being cursed), which ties into the result of B1.

Requisite counterpoint: He has demonstrated all the abilities of C/B-rank close-combat Nanoha mages. End-of-series Ranma is pretty close to equivalent to end-of-series Subaru - high-speed, high-strength physical combat, some limited 'shooting' abilities, small bag of oddball tricks, limited but existent flight capability.

I partially disagree with you here Pale Wolf.
End-of-series Ranma is stronger, faster, and with a much bigger bag of tricks than Subaru. Ranma end-of-series should be capable of fighting Signum equally, if flight isn't possible.

Another potential means of making Ranma go girl as a mage is simple. 'Oh my god, I'm surrounded by powerful women, powerful women have bad habit of falling in love with me, I need to hide my masculine charms, it's the only way I'll be safe!'

Now this actually is funny and plausible for Ranma to pull off.

Ciao

[Fitzgerald]

Been thinking on the whole issue here and had a few questions and answers they provoked I wanted to share, and I would enjoy hearing everyones elses answers as well.

1) Ranma's role in MSLN: Is it important for Ranma to be a Mage (Strong or Not) in the Nanoha verse, or that he's a top teir Ki master and Martial Artist in the Nanoha verse?

2) Ranma-chan, why, when, where, and how?

My answers are:

1) Ranma's role really should focus in on his strengths, which is to say Martial Arts and Ki. Against all those spiffy Anti-Magic opponents popping up in MSLN Ranma really has a spot to shine espacially if Ki is not Magic. Ranma's really into martial arts, it forms a corner stone of his identity, magic on the other hand doesn't, except in the cursed sense.

Even if Ranma is an A rank mage (Chan or otherwise) it just means he yet another mage in the ranks of the TSAB, powerful but not unusual. It's a nifty powerup but I think in the end detracts from having real story potential.

Which isn't to say Ranma can't have magic but I'd limit it to say C/D rank where Ranma uses magic for well extra's in his life. Like say having a whole bunch of thermo's, costumes, clothing, etc sealed away.

Or illusions to get away from annoyances, as distractions, flashbangs etc.

Story wise it gives a different emphasis on Ranma's skills and abilities versus's MSLN's characters skills and abilities.

2) It's a bit of stretch for Ranma to go "Wow I'm really powerful as a mage as girl so I'll stay that way most of the time."

Why wouldn't Ranma go Chan when it's useful then immediatly switch back when he's done needing to use magic. It's a useful tool, maybe even a powerful tool, but one Ranma isn't limited to.

So why Ranma-chan then. Apart from author-appeal, a few reason's come to mind.

A) Ranma-kun is insanely Infamous: Through completely no fault of his own, *cough* ya right *cough*, whenever Ranma-kun shows up people start screaming. From fame, fear, or just the sheer fortune attached to his head, throughout the multi-verse including Earth and all of the TSAB, Ranma-kun provokes a pretty extreme response. To get away from the adoring masses/massive mob scenes/scheming fiances he pretty much hides as Ranma-chan.

For fun Ranma-kun could well provoke extreme responses of all types; from women trying to bed him, governments trying to kill him, and disgruntled fathers attempting to force a wedding at Battleship-point.

B) Training to control the curse: We catch Ranma in the time period where he's learning to control the magic of the curse, thus requiring him to spend tons of time as Ranma-chan. "It's training" is a perfectly legitimate excuse of insane stunts in the Ranma verse.

C) Character development, either onscreen or off, with perhaps some fairly potent side benefits. Perhaps Ranma's acceptance of the curse has unlocked another teir of Ki abilities playing around with Yin/Yang.

Ciao

[rma12]

i would like to point out , that if this is post wedding, ranma could fake being a mage, with out magic,
hidden weapons + iron cloth + chestnut fist could fake a henshi / barrier jacket
he already HAS RANGED ENERGY ATTACKS
his strength speed and damage resist are already comparable, although i don't know where he'd rank
seotome school is aerial school so he can dodge mid air and get great hang time, he can jump 6 to 20 floors up depending on who you ask,
and then there his wind manipulation , so he can fake that too
now thats out of the system, this would make a good story but isn't where you seem to be going. a mage who worries about amf's would be useful
if you use the chakras, there are 7 of them would ranma stop at 2,
1. Root Chakra
2. Sacral Chakra
3. Solar Plexus Chakra ki use
4. Heart Chakra nanoka magic
5. Throat Chakra
6. Brow (Third-Eye) Chakra
7. Crown Chakra

what's ranma going to do with the rest, super ranma this way comes

[Wyrd]

what's ranma going to do with the rest, super ranma this way comes

Not necessarily. If the techniques for using each chakra are significantly different from each other, then he would essentially be starting from scratch as he learned the powers connected to each one as far as actual usage goes. I would write this as his having enormous energy reserves that he can drain from one focus(such as his ki focus) into his chakra network and push it back into his magic focus to give him more energy to use for magical effects, but it wouldn't give him any skill in wielding it until he trained in it. Without an intelligent device of his own, this will be slow going. With one, he would gain access to higher level magic faster, which would aid in his learning to control it, but that wouldn't help him with any of the other chakra abilities. He would need to find teachers who specialized in each of them in order to learn enough to be able to figure out more on his own.

Some thoughts on the other chakras:

The 1st chakra deals with stamina and instinct. It is also the chakra most connected to sexual stamina, ability, and attraction/desire(not attractiveness, how much you are interested in others). Some versions of Nodoka would love to see him trained to use this.

The 5th chakra is the sound chakra, and deals with truth and lies. Maybe he would have to learn how to sing to use powers based on it, though part of the Yamasenken seems to utilize it to a small extent.

The 6th chakra would have to be powers based on divination and perception, or possibly on telepathy.

[rma12]

what's ranma going to do with the rest, super ranma this way comes

Not necessarily. If the techniques for using each chakra are significantly different from each other, then he would essentially be starting from scratch as he learned the powers connected to each one as far as actual usage goes.

sorry, what i meant was longer term ranma's uchiha-ish learning curve plus the time skips and the in universe time each session takes, would lead to ranma powering up faster than the other cast and having less glass ceilings than them.

1. Root Chakra danger sense, gut feelings?
2. Sacral Chakra controlling attraction/desire/lust, sex magic
3. Solar Plexus Chakra- ki use
4. Heart Chakra- nanoka magic
5. Throat Chakra -gifts of tongue, supernatural ablity to understand language, suggestion or singing magic like from loaed of the rings
6. Brow (Third-Eye) Chakra -esp ?, aura sight, second sight, precog
7. Crown Chakra telekinesis, other mind powers not esp
unless i'm using a different interpretation
bad juju ranma already adapts to others skills real quick, if he got precof....

correction
[quotemage who doesn't worry about amf][/quote]