Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:41 am

I don't know. Generally, in the end, I would suspect that it comes down to mind over matter, whether it's ki or mana. In part because they both require training of the mind, even if for different reasons. But I don't think that they're too dissimilar that it would greatly affect one's ability to control one or the other, where the mind is concerned.


Sure, controlling them will be fairly similar. Making them actually do anything won't be.

What's wrong with there being more than one thing?

I mean, it's normal to have two things, at least. Such as good and bad, left and right, here and there, mental and physical, your treasure and my trash, et cetera. And magnetism. Don't forget about magnetism, which I do believe makes the existence of ki and mana together in a person both simple and sane.

Besides, mixing them should be fun!


... I think I'm about as confused as you are right now. And to be sure, you can work with a mix, but you'd have to establish precisely what the nature of each of them is, and what you can do with one but can't with the other and how well, and frankly it's a massive, massive headache, just to get to say 'yeah, this one mysterious force that allows me to pull awesome feats is, in fact, a completely different force than the one that allows you to'. Especially since the feats are, themselves, fairly similar.

(Though I should note, your examples are matters of relative judgement. There is here to someone who's there, left and right swap depending on which way you're facing... So that's not quite what you were trying to get at if you're talking about two distinct types of energy - you should be looking more at the difference between heat and motion and electricity.)

Well, it's mainly because I won't be able to handle too many more characters being added to the StrikerS storyline. That, and Nanoha's obligations would probably make a multiple-person pickup too unrealistic. In part because my knowledge of how the TSAB operates is limited. I'd rather single Ranma out, so he's not a ki user among ki users (whether that ki is mana or not), by making him distinguished as both a ki user and being one of those rare mages from Earth. I find that to be more convenient and natural (like those short stories in the manga where Ranma ends up being by himself) than having to explain why such and such is or isn't there, or why this or that isn't happening. HAVE MERCY UPON MY MEAGER GREY MATTER! I IMPLORE THEE! X_X


*Blinks*

... Um, how's it hard? If Ranma is, himself, kidnapped or willingly signing up, that's plenty of reason right there to say 'this is why he's the only one the TSA is interested in'. And if he politely requests 'please don't take the rest of these loons along, they kind of want to kill me and while that's entertaining on its own, I'd rather not have to deal with it while engaging in combat', that's plenty of reason for Ranma rather than everyone.

Ah well, if you find something else more interesting, go for it. Just pointing out that it's not as hard as all that :P
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Fitzgerald » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:46 am

A few points to make, a few suggestions, then another possible story start.

1] In the Triangle Hearts/MSL Nanoha world Ki Users Already Exist. One example of which would be Nanoha's own family who among other things have an instant movement technique.

Shiro, Nanoha's father, in particular was noted as having great potential as mage in contrast to Kyouya, Nanoha's brother.

This suggests that Ki and Magic are not the same thing at all.

2] Ranma 1/2 Martial Artists are stupidly tough. As in shatter their bodies and they are up bouncing around a week or two later tough. Not to mention Ranma's endurance, he and Genma swam to China, strength, and pure speed.

A good example of this is that while Fate in Sonic Drive sacrifices everything for speed and offensive abilities aka a Glass Knife, Ranma is a strong example of a Lighting Bruiser; eg He's really fast (hundreds of punches in a second), really strong, and really tough.

3] Ki is very much an internal system that eventually leads to external techniques at the highest level, eg Ki blasts, Happi's giant form technique, Herb's flight.

Magic starts out very much as an external system that seems to hardly never go internal.

Not to mention Ranma's abilities are always on ie passive in nature, while magic is activated.

Suggestions

If Ki is not Magic, then AMF's and other such things should do nothing against Ki. Partially for story reasons, ie it gives Ranma a chance to shine, and partially to showcase the differences between the two.

Crazy old Sensei exists on Mid, and promptly seeks Ranma out. "Why that lazy pupil of mine got his brain put in tube just so he could avoid me!"

Story Plot.

Ranma actually comes by the Takamachi's some point in Nanoha's early teen years, that is Post A's but before she leaves Earth for Mid. Why Ranma is visiting the Takamachi's could range from Dojo Challenge, something Genma / Soun / Happosai did, Nodoka being acquaintances with Momoko [s]Ranma and Nanoha are Cousins![/s], to something completely off the wall.

Ranma happens, leaves a real impression on the Nanoha cast [s]Graf Eisen left its own on Ranma ~ Uncute Tomboy![/s].

Cue Ranma learning about a whole society of mages "Cure my Curse!" and somehow ends up joining / working with the TSAB developing among other things a real reputation as a close combat / anti AMF / [s]Criminal of the worst for Seducing my Daughter! - Colonel Gaiz[/s] / and trouble maker who uses two systems of magic, one of which is really unfamiliar.

Striker's S happens, and Ranma cheerfully causes chaos, including getting under the skin of say Tre.

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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Zwzn » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:57 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I'm sure that the subject is a bit odd, but it was the best I could come up with that would fit (space-wise, if barely) for what this is about. Mainly, this concerns crossing Ranma 1/2 over with Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.

For the first part, I'm a bit mystified by how magic works, exactly. It's been a while since I've watched the first two seasons of MSLN (I finally got around to watching StrikerS, now), but I don't recall it ever going into great detail. I more or less understand that devices handle shaping mana into magic, but does that mean that the mind normally finds that task difficult? Because I'm sure I've seen a mage or two using magic without a device. Or my memory could be faulty. Beyond that, if Ranma had what it took to be a mage (i.e. having a linker core), would it be possible for him to use mana like his does ki?

Alternatively, would it be possible to say that what they call ki is actually mana, and that's why there are only a few superhuman-seeming martial artists out of the millions of practitioners on Earth?

Finally, would the TSAB, or any other known organization, actively search for potential mages on Earth? Or would that strictly be conducted on planets where mages are common, where, rather than search for them, there are places for people with linker cores to approach themselves? In either case, how is it determined that someone is a mage/has a linker core? Can a mage sense it, or is technology required?

As one might suspect, these questions are geared toward crossing Ranma 1/2 over with MSLN without Ranma taking Nanoha's place, as I don't really know a good way of doing it any other way. Basically, I can't figure out how Ranma might get a mage's special attention, or how he might somehow get transported to Mid-Childa or some other world where mages are common.

Well the Hiryū Kōrin Dan and Starlight breaker are basically the same attack as i understand it. They both work by gathering energy released during battle, focusing it, and then sending it at the target.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:29 pm

Having the same operational theory has never once and never will make two different things be one and the same. Claiming them to be the same attack is like saying a windmill and a weathervane are the same because they both pivot into the wind and use the force of moving air to turn them. In both cases ignoring the purpose but they have the same Operational Theory.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:06 pm

There was something that just came to mind, while writing this post. Is becoming a mage/having a linker core a hereditary thing? Because I was wondering why it might be a rare development on Earth and not so elsewhere. Or is it dependent on cultivation, because every human has mana but it's a rare condition for someone to start out with their mana developed to the point where they have a linker core? I mean, where mages are common, is it/could it be because their society knows how to cultivate one's mana until they develop a linker core? Because that would explain why mages on Earth tend to be of higher grade, because the ones that are found naturally start out with a linker core.

Pale Wolf wrote:Sure, controlling them will be fairly similar. Making them actually do anything won't be.

I actually don't plan for Ranma to do anything flashy with mana. He might learn a simple spell or two (probably defensive), but he'll ultimately use it instead of the moko takabisha, in order to reserve his overall strength and stamina. That shouldn't be so difficult to do. I mean, I can see where you'd need a device to help conjure up multiple shots to attack targets spread out all over the place, but a single beam on a single target shouldn't be a problem.

... I think I'm about as confused as you are right now. And to be sure, you can work with a mix, but you'd have to establish precisely what the nature of each of them is, and what you can do with one but can't with the other and how well, and frankly it's a massive, massive headache, just to get to say 'yeah, this one mysterious force that allows me to pull awesome feats is, in fact, a completely different force than the one that allows you to'. Especially since the feats are, themselves, fairly similar.

(Though I should note, your examples are matters of relative judgement. There is here to someone who's there, left and right swap depending on which way you're facing... So that's not quite what you were trying to get at if you're talking about two distinct types of energy - you should be looking more at the difference between heat and motion and electricity.)

As if I'd ignore how they differ from one another. ;p Actually, Fitzgerald's idea of how they could operate is what I've been considering. I've seen ki used more internally and passively than anything, with only the strongest examples of fighters being able to project their ki. Likewise, I've seen mana used for more external applications than anything else. I was thinking of bringing the two concepts together in the same way as the yin and yang are in the Tao.

*Blinks*

... Um, how's it hard? If Ranma is, himself, kidnapped or willingly signing up, that's plenty of reason right there to say 'this is why he's the only one the TSA is interested in'. And if he politely requests 'please don't take the rest of these loons along, they kind of want to kill me and while that's entertaining on its own, I'd rather not have to deal with it while engaging in combat', that's plenty of reason for Ranma rather than everyone.

Ah well, if you find something else more interesting, go for it. Just pointing out that it's not as hard as all that :P

It's just that being kidnapped isn't exactly how I operate, and being able to "sign up" sounds like I'd need to set up a lot of things that I likely don't know how to pull off. I mean, Nanoha and Fate are special cases, and I don't think that either went to mage schools, so I have no idea how someone like Ranma could be signed up. At best, all I've been able to think of, that I could actually pull off with what I'm sure I know, is Nanoha witnessing his skills and becoming interested enough in him to invite him back with her for unofficial reasons, perhaps to be made official later.

Fitzgerald wrote:1] In the Triangle Hearts/MSL Nanoha world Ki Users Already Exist. One example of which would be Nanoha's own family who among other things have an instant movement technique.

Shiro, Nanoha's father, in particular was noted as having great potential as mage in contrast to Kyouya, Nanoha's brother.

This suggests that Ki and Magic are not the same thing at all.

Is the OVA enough to go by? Because it seems like it's mainly a series of hentai games... X_X

2] Ranma 1/2 Martial Artists are stupidly tough. As in shatter their bodies and they are up bouncing around a week or two later tough. Not to mention Ranma's endurance, he and Genma swam to China, strength, and pure speed.

A good example of this is that while Fate in Sonic Drive sacrifices everything for speed and offensive abilities aka a Glass Knife, Ranma is a strong example of a Lighting Bruiser; eg He's really fast (hundreds of punches in a second), really strong, and really tough.

I'm wondering if ki could offset the physical problem that almost did Nanoha in, for pushing her limits with the use of mana. (Or whatever happened to her between A's and StrikerS.) That might be an interesting addition to the story, where Ranma finds his calling in teaching a culture that relies upon mana to use their ki, because it does have benefits for mages. Which could also explain why ki is more developed on Earth, because the rarity of mages means that they have to fall back on to something else, if not only technology. And advancement of the body usually precedes the great conveniences of science in human development, so...

If Ki is not Magic, then AMF's and other such things should do nothing against Ki. Partially for story reasons, ie it gives Ranma a chance to shine, and partially to showcase the differences between the two.

That's what inspired the idea that I had, but mostly to get Ranma into the StrikerS storyline. Figuring out what Ranma does with both ki and mana is going to be the key to his presence and involvement, though. An ongoing development, to be sure. I may not know what I'll do with it until I get around to writing the story.

Ranma actually comes by the Takamachi's some point in Nanoha's early teen years, that is Post A's but before she leaves Earth for Mid. Why Ranma is visiting the Takamachi's could range from Dojo Challenge, something Genma / Soun / Happosai did, Nodoka being acquaintances with Momoko [s]Ranma and Nanoha are Cousins![/s], to something completely off the wall.

Ranma happens, leaves a real impression on the Nanoha cast [s]Graf Eisen left its own on Ranma ~ Uncute Tomboy![/s].

Cue Ranma learning about a whole society of mages "Cure my Curse!" and somehow ends up joining / working with the TSAB developing among other things a real reputation as a close combat / anti AMF / [s]Criminal of the worst for Seducing my Daughter! - Colonel Gaiz[/s] / and trouble maker who uses two systems of magic, one of which is really unfamiliar.

Striker's S happens, and Ranma cheerfully causes chaos, including getting under the skin of say Tre.

That's a possibility. Nanoha could come into contact with him after A's, and then think of him when she begins to encounter the AMF. Although I'd have to consider Ranma's age, and what all happens in ten years, because Nanoha might not consider Ranma unless he was old enough to really show how strong a ki user could be -- especially if she also gets to see a ki blast.

And I certainly don't want his curse to be cured. XD
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:21 pm

It's just that being kidnapped isn't exactly how I operate, and being able to "sign up" sounds like I'd need to set up a lot of things that I likely don't know how to pull off. I mean, Nanoha and Fate are special cases, and I don't think that either went to mage schools, so I have no idea how someone like Ranma could be signed up.


Well, it normally works out by a dude walking out to a recruiting station (or in this case a local officer) and filling out some forms... Militaries tend to be quite happy to recieve recruits, as long as they pass the basic 'probably won't flip out and kill us all' screening. And the TSA doesn't have any real qualms about recruiting foreign nationals (see: Graham, Nanoha).

From there it'd be basic training easily enough - while prior magical instruction is preferred for TSA recruitment, it's not required, Subaru never went to magic school and had what could be best described as a vague idea of how magic works, as taught by someone who, herself, learned it as a ten-year-old. Special groups like Mobile Section 6 provide advanced individual training, which, well, you've seen plenty of.

You wouldn't really need a 'super special unique' trait to pique Nanoha's interest for her to recommend you for recruitment, or for MS6. You just have to have potential, that was plenty enough for her to get Subaru and Teana on the team - remember, Teana was the one who had no special traits, but was considered by Nanoha the star pupil.

(Though, it's probably likely that if Ranma were normal in that sense, Teana might not have her inadequacy issues come to the fore as they did in StrikerS)
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:03 am

Well, I suppose it could be as easy as saying that Nanoha showed/took Ranma to where he'd need to go to get enlisted, or whatever. Maybe I've just been over-thinking things. Although adding Nanoha as the one that recommended him might ensure that things go that smoothly.

However, I do have two concerns. One being the amount of recruits for Mobile Section 6, since it seemed limited to two for each team. I haven't finished watching StrikerS yet, so I don't know if any more are added at a later point. The second concern is if there is a qualification beyond being hand-picked, since I know that both Subaru and Teana had experience with using and fighting with intelligent devices before being picked. Plus, I don't want to mess with the dynamics of either team, so I've been considering the possibility of making Ranma an auxiliary unit. In part because I want to avoid the whole, "Ranma enters the scene and steals the show," that's so common in crossover fan-fiction. He'll be the main focus, for sure, but his contribution to the overall plot will be relatively minor.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:17 am

Just make it so that even though he can work well with others any attempts at giving him a team assignment ends up untenable because his attitude makes people who stay in that constant contact always want to kill him.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:34 am

There can be that, I guess. XD

Although, I imagine that joining the TSA probably includes one of those tests that determines one's personality, and it'd either be recommended that he take a job where he works alone, or that he should go through training so he can operate in a team.

Oh, yeah. About his curse. Would a medical examination notice it? If so, can anything be done about it? I mean, I can't recall any magic being used to cast curses, in MSLN. Most of the magic I remember seeing was direct effect, and I'm not sure that healing magic can heal/reverse beyond physical damage. Actually, now that I think about it, don't people heal from injury the old-fashioned way? Hrm. ;/ I certainly don't plan to have Ranma's curse cured, but it's certainly a subject that will come up in the story, so I'd feel better if I knew what magic may or may not be able to do about it.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Wyrd » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:34 am

It's just that being kidnapped isn't exactly how I operate, and being able to "sign up" sounds like I'd need to set up a lot of things that I likely don't know how to pull off. I mean, Nanoha and Fate are special cases, and I don't think that either went to mage schools, so I have no idea how someone like Ranma could be signed up. At best, all I've been able to think of, that I could actually pull off with what I'm sure I know, is Nanoha witnessing his skills and becoming interested enough in him to invite him back with her for unofficial reasons, perhaps to be made official later.


There is a simple way to get Ranma involved with the TSA: Genma. Have Genma commit some crime against the TSA or one of their agents, blame it on Ranma, and have Ranma get 'volunteered' to work for the TSA for a few months to avoid his dad having to go to jail. This is an established pattern Nanoha. All of her strongest allies before the start of Strikers came from enemies who wound up working for the TSA as a form of community service.

Actually, now that I think about it, don't people heal from injury the old-fashioned way?


There is activated healing magic, but there are limits to what it can heal. The biggest limit seems to be that it can't heal a damaged linker core. If Ranma's training mages in using ki would allow their magical energies to refresh faster or allow injuries that magic can't heal to heal faster on their own, I could see the TSA encouraging its operatives to take training courses with him.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:36 pm

Depending on what I see in Triangle Heart, I might have Ranma working at Midoriya. Exactly how and why is still up in the air, but one of the possibilities is that one of Ranma's fights damages the cafe, and he ends up having to work there to pay it off. That way Nanoha meets him. Well, her, of course. And, inevitably, working around all of those girls, both employee and customer alike, doesn't sit well with a lot of the people in her life. And it just so happens that they're set off when Ranma seems to be acting too friendly with some girl (don't know who yet, if anyone in particular) while Nanoha is present. Perhaps with Nanoha herself. That's one of the ideas that have really solidified, anyway.

As for healing with ki, I'd like to make a Monty Python reference with it:

"...and I was crippled after that. I couldn't move anything below the neck!"

The person to whom Ranma was speaking to regarded him with a skeptical expression and asked, "really?"

Seeing the look on their face, Ranma, after a moment's consideration, lamely replied, "I got better."

But, yeah, I think it'd be neat for Ranma to find a calling in teaching people how to utilize their ki. It'd eventually become a standard training regimen for all mages. At the very least because it'd provide a bit more stamina when a mage needs to cast a good deal of magic within a short period of time, and for recovering from injuries at least a bit better and faster than usual.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Pale Wolf » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:01 pm

Oh, yeah. About his curse. Would a medical examination notice it? If so, can anything be done about it? I mean, I can't recall any magic being used to cast curses, in MSLN. Most of the magic I remember seeing was direct effect, and I'm not sure that healing magic can heal/reverse beyond physical damage. Actually, now that I think about it, don't people heal from injury the old-fashioned way?


They usually have healing magic, though its capability certainly isn't perfect. It seems to aid natural healing, more than replace.

As far as a medical examination... yes, in all probability they'd notice the curse, it's a basic magical effect. Now, they haven't cast curses on people, but the curse's actual function is well within Nanoha purview. If a man can turn into a ferret at will, man to woman ain't all that hard.

I'd say in theory it should be easy to cure the curse, they've certainly sealed stronger things than a wild transformation spell. Since this is the outcome you don't want, we'd need to do some whackiness to prevent this.

Options that come to mind are Ranma wanting to keep the curse, being too used to it or enjoying its advantages. (Or preferring to take care of it himself) Alternately, if you go the 'community service to play off a crime' angle, there's the even simpler point: "It's just embarrassing, not dangerous or any real impediment. Why should we remove it? If he learns well enough he can handle it himself, or if he does well in his term, we can pull it off as a going-away present. Kid shouldn't benefit from having committed (whatever Genma did), not immediately."

You could posit incapability to seal or cure the curse, but it'd be difficult without pulling some very annoying wank (ie, saying a mere fragment of Jusenkyo magic is too powerful to contain, or the ever-present-and-eternally-annoying 'chaos' bit).
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:19 pm

How about making it so that they do seal Jusenkyo's magic but Ranma ends up randomly shifting male to female without control because both forms are real and only Jusenkyo was keeping them from both trying to be a constant reality. So they have to re-apply the magic to stabilize it and Let Ranma be only one at a time again.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Wyrd » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:27 pm

Other options include:
1)The magic is bonded to his linker core and can't be removed without possibly/probably damaging it and either killing him or permanently rendering him unable to do magic.
2)They can only lock him in his cursed form, thus why the locking ladle can only do the same.
3) One I particularly like: The curse actually wore off years ago. It taught his body how to change itself and he just does it reflexively when splashed now. Once he learns to control his magic he'll gain full control of the changes, like Yuuno. You could even go with the original purpose of Jusenkyo being to teach people how to shapeshift into various forms before something happened that destroyed the school that used to be there, or the device responsible got buried underground and has been tainting the water there ever since.
4) Ranma actually meant what he said after Jusendo and doesn't even see it as a curse anymore, though he would love to learn to control it. He sees the female aspect of himself as being integral to who he is now, and would miss its loss as much as the loss of an arm.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Fitzgerald » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:47 pm

Fitzgerald wrote:Triangle Hearts/MSL Nanoha world Ki Users Already Exist.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Is the OVA enough to go by? Because it seems like it's mainly a series of hentai games... X_X


I'd say yes, to the OVA and the fact that Nanoha came out of a series of hentai games.
It is the origin series for MSLN, and the only time we get to see the elder Takamachi's in action.
The only big change is that Shiro is alive in MSLN, and is dead is Triangle Hearts.

Fitzgerald wrote:Ki is not Magic.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:That's what inspired the idea that I had, but mostly to get Ranma into the StrikerS storyline. Figuring out what Ranma does with both ki and mana is going to be the key to his presence and involvement, though. An ongoing development, to be sure. I may not know what I'll do with it until I get around to writing the story.


Well for comedy's sake you could have Ranma use magic for making his life more comfortable. "I developed/researched a spell to do _______." Where said magic could be making food, summoning booze, etc.

Plus the whole flight thing.

Ranma actually comes by the Takamachi's some point in Nanoha's early teen years ~ cue Ranma hijinks

That's a possibility. Nanoha could come into contact with him after A's, and then think of him when she begins to encounter the AMF. Although I'd have to consider Ranma's age, and what all happens in ten years, because Nanoha might not consider Ranma unless he was old enough to really show how strong a ki user could be -- especially if she also gets to see a ki blast.

And I certainly don't want his curse to be cured. XD[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with an older Ranma, of which BlackDragon's Guardianhttp://www.fanfiction.net/s/720841/1/Guardian is a fun example.

Actually why not have Ranma be Nanoha's Sensei in martial arts. It gives a good excuse for Ranma to pop in and out of Strikers S without upsetting that bit of the story line.

Not to mention giving Ranma the excuse to casually mess around with the kids.

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