Rise of the Phoenix Ch 1 (New Fukufic)

[Emerald Kigo]

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[frice2000]

You've hit a lot of cliches here even in what is a pretty cliched sub-genre. I find the premise very familiar on the Ranma side but it could be made into something interesting as it develops. On the SM side though I found the treatment of Usagi quite out of character there and wish you had gone about her exiting Juuban in a slightly more plausible fashion. All in all I don't know how good this will be need to see your upcoming chapters. As it is right now though it is very average.

[JustinD]

Seems like an interesting idea and I look forward to updates.

I want to involve Saturn also but I don't see a way of doing that without involving the Deathbusters which I don't want to in the R arc this story takes place in.

With involving Saturn, I reckon if you really want to include her you could just say in the authors notes that you're going to mess with the time lines and if people don't like it, it is too bad cause its your story.
Or write up an alternate way of introducing her. It could be something simple like her meeting Ranma(Starfire) and that triggering memories of her past life (maybe of them being practical inseparable in the past pulling pranks on the Royal Court) leading to an early rebirth.
And yes I know my idea seems cliche.

[Pusakuronu]

You've hit a lot of cliches here even in what is a pretty cliched sub-genre. I find the premise very familiar on the Ranma side but it could be made into something interesting as it develops. On the SM side though I found the treatment of Usagi quite out of character there and wish you had gone about her exiting Juuban in a slightly more plausible fashion. All in all I don't know how good this will be need to see your upcoming chapters. As it is right now though it is very average.

I got to agree with this. Sailor Moon taking a hit like that and none of the others hurrying over to make sure she was all right? Tuxedo Mask being accusing, rather than encouraging? Rei SHOVING Usagi after seeing the hit she just took? MINAKO talking about being more responsible? Makoto accusing her of selfishness, when they know she isn't a selfish person? Nobody noticing her tears and asking what was wrong? These girls are all so loyal they *died* for Usagi. The OOC-ness is grating.

[Emerald Kigo]

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[Pusakuronu]

In fact, I see no offers of help at all or any C&C other than being whiny because they seem OOC to you.

That would be the "Criticism" part of C&C. I did helpfully point out every instance of the characters not acting like themselves so you have the opportunity to fix it.

It's grating that they are acting OOC? That's your whole point? Guess what genius? This is fanfiction, not cannon, which means there will be OOC.

OOC is the cardinal sin of fanfiction. You are using characters from canon, hence your readers will expect them to behave like they do in canon, unless the writer provides character development that shows why they are different from the baseline. Make characters too OOC, and all you have is original characters with the same name.

There will be alternate events. There will be differences.

Naturally. Otherwise the story would be boring. However, the fun part in reading fanfiction is seeing how the canon characters react to the altered situation.

If all you want to do is bitch about it then go to Barnes & Noble or Best Buy or wherever and buy the cannon and don't even bother with fanfiction because there is already a very high chance that someone will be OOC being what it is.

You are coming here for comments and criticism, and then you are annoyed when you actually get *gasp* criticism? To elaborate: Just because OOC-ness happens often in fanfiction doesn't mean that it's not bad writing. If there's OOC, it had better be justified.

Fanfiction is something made by fans for fans filled with what-ifs and if you can't understand that then you really need to stop bothering reading fanfiction.

Of course it is. "What if X happened to character Y?" Note that this is still about character Y, not about "original character with character Y's name". To summarise: OOC is bad. When familiar characters act differently from how the reader expects them to without explanation, readers notice. Especially when it's blatantly used as a plot device.

[Emerald Kigo]

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[Sunshine Temple]

Emerald Kigo. You've been warned. All Pusakuronu said in his first post that could even be taken as "bad" was: "The OOC-ness is grating."

Then you replied that it was whinny and bitchy and repeatedly insulted his intelligence.

Pusakuronu then responded in an entirely civil and proper way (Good work Pusakuronu. It's nice to see someone not raising to the flame bait).

And then you, Kigo, went to outright flaming.

This rule is pretty clear:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=351

E) There is a difference between flames and critical commentary. Reviewers remember not to flame, and writers remember that you are asking for C&C and not all of it will be positive.

I was actually writing this response before your latest Kigo. Hence the temporary thread-lock.


Pusakuronu's problem is that, in his view, you have not provided sufficient explanation or character development to justify the deviation of the charter in question.

This is an entirely reasonable critique. You may not agree with the critique but you should not become insulting when you receive it.

Not only is it against the rules, but your reaction to C&C will dramatically affect how much you will get in the future. People will be much less inclined to take time out of their day to contribute commentary on your work, if they don't like how you respond to it.

For more details on how to get and keep C&C, please consult this page
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1302

As for you Emerald Kigo, you get a final warning. Stick a toe out of line and you'll get a temp ban, really screw up and it'll be perma. I suggest reading the rules, and if you're confused on whether and action is appropriate or not, please contact an admin or mod.

[Emerald Kigo]

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[Pale Wolf]

Okay then. Now, for the record, I haven't read your idea myself - I've just read the commentary on it. So whether people actually are acting OOC, I don't know - I'll simply be speaking in generalities.

The thing is, simply... this is fanfiction. People are here to read about the characters who actually exist - not the characters with the same name you replace them with. And it's not just that these are the characters they're interested in.

Fanfiction builds on canon - you're taking everything that happened in canon and using it as a base for your story. The thing is, if you suddenly change it and leap into the deep end, your readers have no clue what's what. You've suddenly obviated a large portion of that canon, which means your story has a very different base. The readers don't know what that is. You're building on sand - the basic knowledge every fanfic reader comes in with is no longer valid, which means you need to replace it, as if you're doing an original story.

Now... you say you want the Senshi to be a bit darker? The problem is, you can't do that.

Not 'can't' as in 'bad Kigo'. 'Can't' as in 'physics do not work that way'. If they were, on the whole, nastier people, then all the events of Sailor Moon would have turned out differently. You wouldn't even get to this scene because things would have been different all the way back in the past - and you should show at least key events of this, so that people have some idea of how they act in this world. As it is, they're not 'darker'. They just woke up one day and decided to have a different personality.

OOC is bad. If you want different characters, create different characters - either originals, or change the character's personality right back at the beginning and show how that changed things and how people react to it. If you want to do fan fiction, you need to take the existing character, and ask yourself 'How would they act in this situation?' You can alter events somewhat - drag them into different situations to provoke character development, or give 'em a real bad day (or, hell, have someone mind-controlling them).

But the 'fan' part of fan fiction means you're working with the characters everyone already knows, as a starting point. If you want that character to act differently, you're going to need to make it make sense, both to yourself and to everyone who knows that character, that they would do so. If you want that character to be different, then you're going to need to think of what series of events, revelations, etc would develop that character from your starting point - their existing, canonical personality - on to your target behaviour.

Unfortunately, this is the 'Criticism' part of Comments & Criticism. It's most assuredly the least fun part (even my hackles rise), but it's also the most necessary part. Your readers are seeing what seems to be an honest problem with your work, and instead of just shrugging and never reading you again, they're taking the time out to tell you just what they think is wrong.

Now, there is a limit to this, but as a general rule, it's the writer's job to get their story across - if someone sees a problem, chances are there's a problem.

Seeing that problem, you can do one of two things. Either you can try to fix the problem... or you can ignore all attempts to help you improve, and become this guy: http://www.fanfiction.net/~perfectlionheart

The most critical readers and reviewers are your best. Everyone else gives you praise, but the critics tell you how to be better, and worthy of that praise. When you recieve no criticism, that's when you know you did things right. But only if you don't shout down and ignore your critics.

It is not pleasant to go feeling around in the guts of your work to fix the problems. But I recommend you do it anyway. It's not a pleasant experience, but when you're done, you'll have a piece of work you can be proud of - something that really does have no flaws, that makes perfect sense to all readers.

That's better than a lot of published authors can do. And it's what your story deserves - to be as good as it can be.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

I might as well toss in my two cents, since I think that it'd be a disservice not to mention this. Aside from characters developing outside of what is expected of their behavior, another acceptable source of OOC is... Alternate Universe. Although it's mostly acceptable if the reader is aware that the story is AU before they begin to read it. Which also works if OOC is intended, by saying so before the story begins.

As a reader, I don't see OOC as "bad" or "wrong." People have different standards, after all: both as readers and as writers. A lot of fan-fiction, for instance, is written with the intent of coupling certain characters and, inevitably, some will take the easy path and change the character's personalities enough to make it possible, rather than explain how they got that way. But, plenty of people accept, and enjoy it, I'm sure.

So, ultimately, what I'd say is that, if you're writing with the intention of keeping the characters as IC as possible, and you're willing to go the distance to accomplish that, study the characters -- anime, manga, whatever; take your pick. And there's the Fic Research forum, where you can ask for superficial, general or in-depth information about a character's personality and background. If you feel that you haven't done enough to accomplish what you set out to do, I suggest doing those two things, at the very least.

[Emerald Kigo]

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[Emerald Kigo]

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[Pusakuronu]

I do apologize for the way I reacted to Pusakuronu's posts,

Apology accepted.

I honestly fail to see how Pusakuronu's post was even slightly criticism, I honestly see it more of an insult

Now this, I don't understand at all. Unless you are using a very different definition of OOC than me, there is nothing insulting in my first post. Not only did it point out several instances of OOC behaviour through the questions, the questions were phrased such that they already had an answer on how to fix this - that is, how the senshi would be much more likely to react given that situation.

As for the "grating" comment, that was meant as a statement of fact. I'm reading your story, and then suddenly that scene happens and I'm all "wait wait what this is all wrong they wouldn't do that!" It stands out like a sharp bump in the otherwise smooth flow of the story, piercing my suspension of disbelief.

Now I can argue points about the senshi verbally putting down Usagi as they truly did that to her in R though in a different setting. It got so bad she broke down crying in a phone booth over it and Mamo-baka.

You are misremembering episode 61 here. Usagi crying in the phone booth is completely about Mamoru breaking up with her. The senshi were all very supportive and tried to comfort her.

Edit: the only time I can remember the senshi being exceedingly nasty to one of their own was episode 80, and those senshi were illusions produced by Esmeraude's droid Giwaku. You could have Usagi run into that thing without realising it, as I can't see any other way aside from mind control to make the senshi and Tuxedo Mask act the way you need them to for that scene. Their personality just doesn't allow it. And of course, the reader must be aware that it is an illusion, or else there will be the perceived OOC problem again.

I think a story should be considered good or bad by the story and where it goes not by if someone likes how one of the charcters are acting.

Not to start another argument, but I'm honestly baffled as to how you can consider characters acting in a certain way as not part of the story. Do you mean plot?

[nodregah]

I have seen another fic in which the senshi are darker than their canon counterparts, even enough for them all to belittle Usagi. Enough to put Usagi on the path to suicide. BUT this is the first time I have seen the author criticized for it. Enough for him to respond and bring the wrath of the Administrator. That wrath which seems out of place.