What are the benefits?

Discuss the Ranma series in this forum.

Postby Trimatter » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:24 am

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:
First of all... snip


Your first point:

While they may be aware of the problems with inbreeding and the Kiss of Marriage does insure that whoever joins the Amazons (willingly or not) are strong, but it also does a major thing to to enhance that problem: It severely limits the number of people that can join the tribe through marriage.

As isolated as the Amazons are supposedly are, they would have very few outsiders coming to their village and even fewer of those outsiders that can defeat a well-trained amazon martial artist - unless it is by accident like Ranma did.

Let's break this down:

First, let's be generous and say over the course of one hundred years the Amazons see about one hundred outsiders passing through their village; outsiders being defined as people totally new to the area. Second, we will be generous again and say seventy percent of those outsiders are male so that means that the village sees seventy outsider males. Let's further be generous and say that one in ten of those outsiders has any martial art skill of merit, that leave seven potential mates. Now, we will extend that generosity to say that one one out of ten of that remaining seven are skilled enough to challenged and defeat a trained Amazon for her hand.

This would mean about once every one hundred thirty to one hundred forty years an outsider would able to marry into the Amazons; or about twenty two to twenty three men over the course of the entire three thousand years of Amazonian history. This is not enough of a genetic diversity introduced to belay inbreeding.

However, I do agree that there must be other factors involved in the dispensing of their marriage laws or the Amazons and the Musk would have assimilated into one peoples by the time the Soatomes crossed their path. From what I've seen the in the manga, a Musk is more than a match for an Amazon warrior and if they follow their marriage laws to the letter, the Amazons would be no more.

Since this didn't happen, some other factors must had come into play. There is no doubt other villages (other villages are mentioned in the manga - just not what relationship they have to the Amazons) must be involved, but how those mates are judged, selected and paired up is up to great conjecture.

So on that, we can retire this argument of Amazonian genetics due to lack of evidence one way or another.

Your second point:

You proposed the possibility of Ranma staying in Japan after he married Shampoo (or in the case of the manga, recognized the marriage). However this is contradicted by the manga where there is little doubt that Cologne and Shampoo would insist that Ranma return with them to China and they have stated that fact several times throughout the series. It would be highly unlikely that the Amazons would allow Ranma to remain behind, even if Shampoo stayed with him, because Ranma cannot benefit the village if he stayed in Japan.

The scenario you proposed, as interesting as it is (and maybe a good fanfic could come out of it), does not fit the events laid out in canon and therefore irrelevant to this argument.

The problem that you seem to be missing and that I tried to stress in my last posting is: In an arranged marriage, the agreement generally must be mutually beneficial for both families. Mutually beneficial - as in it is: Good for both participants.

In light of that definition, there is absolutely no benefit to the Saotomes in an arrangement between Ranma and Shampoo. None. Zip. Na-dah. Zilch.

In fact, it would deal the Soatomes a great blow. They would loose their only son, heir, and everything that they invested into their him and their future as well. It doesn't make sense from the Soatomes point of view to accept such a disadvantaged agreement.

Since you seem to have the most problems dealing with the fact that the Amazons are not the most with the benefits and instead are the ones with the least, I'll lay it out for you:

Amazons: Let Ranma and Shampoo marry! If you do we will teach Ranma all of our ancient and powerful martial arts techniques! He'll become a martial arts god... or goddess... depending on the water temperature!

Soatomes: Okay, that sounds good. It would benefit him and our martial arts, but what about the long-term benefits? What would they be?

Amazons: Isn't it enough that he be taught three thousand years of Amazon martial arts?

Soatomes: No, not really. You see, it is our custom that the children look after us in our old age. How will our son support us when we get too old to work?

Amazons: Well... you could come back with us to China. We can arrange something there.

Soatomes: Wait, wait, wait. You mean to tell us that you want our son to leave Japan and live with you in China?

Amazons: Yes, of course. Where else would they live?

Soatomes: Why here, of course. That way they can try and find a place to teach martial arts and start making a living.

Amazons: Impossible. How can Shampoo and Ranma benefit the tribe if they stay here?

Soatomes: How can we benefit by having our only son marry Shampoo and made to live in a foreign country, far from where we are, with no visible means of supporting us in our old age?

Amazons: Er... like I said, you could come with us.

Soatomes: To live in a foreign land? In a village that is more or less isolated from the rest of the world? Live amongst and having to embrace a foreign culture and laws? Away from our country, people and the life we know? All for YOUR advantage?

Amazons: Er...

Soatomes: Why should we agree to this when there are others interested in our son that won't insist that we uproot ourselves and adapt to your lifestyle?

Amazons: Er... let me get back to you on that.

See? Having martial arts as the main benefit doesn't work unless it can be backed by something else; something that the Soatome family can gain from in the long-term. In the manga, the Amazons don't have much else to offer beyond isolation and martial arts and thought I wrote the above very tongue-in-cheek it does show the some of the core issues involved.

Bottom line: While on the surface the Amazon martial arts may look like a good deal, without something more - in the way of long-term benefits for the Soatomes - it really isn't as great a deal as you think it is. Ranma can learn all the Amazonian martial arts they have, but without any real means of transferring that knowledge into something tangible - like income - it is meaningless to the Soatome family or their retirement. Once back among the Amazons, I cannot see how Ranma would be able to profit from this knowledge; while he would be a boon for the Amazons because they have acquired an excellent fighter to help defend themselves and to train future fighters.

With no compelling counter-argument to mine (your stance is mainly based on a "what if" scenario and nothing from the manga), my conclusion of "there would be no benefit to be gained in an arrangement with the Amazons" stands.

Third point:

As far as how much Akane has improved, read the first and last few volumes of the manga. Akane has definitely improved over the course of the manga while, in comparison, Shampoo has pretty much remained stagnate or improved very little.

Since canon supports this, it stands.

Your fourth point:

The Tendo dojo having no students is leans more toward fandom - what is known is that Soun does support the household somehow and the most logical way for him to do so would be to run the dojo. As I stated in my last posting, this is not supported directly by the manga, but Soun making some type of income is - the evidence being that he mentions going on business trips. However this being tied in with the dojo is all circumstantial, but it is not outside the realm of possibility or probability.

The problem with your argument is that you are trying to prove a negative. Any scientist and lawyer will tell you that it is impossible - you cannot rule out any possibility until the correct one is proven or concrete evidence is offered. The best that you can hope for is to propose a line of argument that says "There is a high probability that the Tendos have no students" but the fact is that "probability" is in there leaves the chance of them having students in the equation.

The only way you - or anyone else for that matter - can prove that the Tendos have no students is to find the definitive proof - the smoking gun. You need to find where in the manga that shows one of the Tendos saying "We have no students". That is the only way you can win this argument. Anything else is a guess on your part and given what I have read, your guesses are based on evidence that is more nonexistent than my argument that the possibility exists.

So basically, we have two theories here. The positive one that can be somewhat supported by highly circumstantial evidence and conjecture and the other, negative theory, that is not really supported by anything.

Seeing that my theory makes the most sense of the two, my educated guess that the "possibility that the dojo is still functioning on some level with the added possibility of some students" stands - but only marginally because for all we know Rumiko Takahashi, the creator of Ranma 1/2, might have intended for Soun to work a gigolo or something.

Your final points:

This really killed me:
First of all, Ranma has not been taught to teach- he has been brought up as a powerful martial artist, but it seems to me that Genma was intending for Soun's daughter to do the actual teaching and Ranma would defend the dojo and know the powerful techniques.


That made me shake my head in wonder...

In the manga, there was no provision for any of Soun's daughters to teach. There isn't any provision for any of the daughters to even KNOW martial arts.

Though the term "joining of the schools" is widely used, this is doubtful the only intent and fairly obvious that it extends to joining the families.

Concider: If there was a intent to "join the schools" then Akane, as well as her other sisters, would have been trained more rigorously to filled their future role - or, alternatively, one would have been selected as the official heir and trained and would have been automatically assigned as Ranma's fiancée from the very beginning.

But that is not how it played out in the manga.

Instead, Ranma was given the choice of "picking one" among the Tendo sisters to be his bride.

Pay attention! This is a very important plot point! Why? Because to shows in canon that knowing martial arts or knowing how to teach martial arts on the part of the Tendos sisters had absolutely NOTHING to do with and was not a factor in the decision on who was going to be Ranma's wife. It wasn't even brought up by Genma or Soun - who arranged the marriage in the first place!

Reread the above again just incase you missed it.

Ranma's decision as to whom he was to marry was taken away from him by combined efforts of Nabiki and Kasumi, but the fact remains that knowing martial arts was not a determining factor in what would have been Ranma's decision. This also demonstrates that, as far as the Soatomes and Tendos are concerned, "joining of the schools" means the same thing as joining the families.

If Ranma were quicker, he might have picked Kasumi or Nabiki, two people with no real martial arts experience, and Soun and Genma would have been just as happy and fine with that decision. Conclusion: Based on the events of the manga, passing on Tendo's School of Martial Arts was not and is not a factor in the Soatome/Tendo agreement.

A good example in canon of how irreverent martial arts was in the agreement on the Tendo side was the time that Nabiki was engaged to Ranma. The fathers didn't care as long as it was a Tendo and Nabiki didn't sell the dojo.

As far as Ranma teaching goes, before you can teach, you must learn. Ranma is still learning and it would probably be years before he is ready and has acquired the maturity to teach. Ranma not knowing how to teach is irrelevant at this point in his life and the assumption that Ranma's sole role is to defend the dojo from challengers is just simply absurd and laughable.

Akane's lack of control on her temper and Soun's broken, emotional state are based mostly on fandom and not canon. When arguing about canon, please keep your points solely to the canon. I'm not arguing fanon.

Your "strikes" at the end:

First: I have already successfully argued - as much as the scant evidence allows - that the probability exists that the Tendo's dojo is functioning on some level. Though I admit the evidence is highly circumstantial, it is far more than than exists to show it does not operate in any capacity at all. Soun's emotional state is more overly done in fanfiction than how he is shown in the manga (I do admit guilt in partaking in that - it is just so much fun to do!); he is far from the emotion wreck that is commonly portrayed. To clarify: Soun is a emotional man, but not an emotional wreak.

Second: As far as Ranma and Akane relationship goes, I can see them settling down - really I can. I'm forty-four years old and I've seen all kinds of relationships work out and what they have isn't too bad to begin with. The only problem I really see between Ranma and Akane is that their personalities are too much alike however, once they "wear some of the edges off each other" as I call it, they would most likely get along just fine.

On a personal note: In spite of Akane being the best match amongst Ranma's suitors, I will probably never write a Akane/Ranma matchup. I have my reasons and I won't detail them here.

Your "third strike" is based completely on a very early or fandom version of Akane's character and not how she is shown through the majority of the manga. Which is only relevant if one were to do a very early divergence fic.

It seems that your preference for Shampoo has caused you to overlook the way the situation is in the canon.

For arguments sake, let's say that Ranma has no commitments to any families and is free. No Kiss of Marriage, no pervious deals with the Tendos or Uyko - no nothing. Let us have the four interested parties visit the Soatomes to arrange a marriage agreement. This way we can look at the benefits and disadvantages on an even level. Please keep this in mind: For the Japanese, they decide such things based on what is best for the family, not the individual.

For briefness sake, I'll summarize though others could probably add onto what is here:

Ukyo:
Since running a resturant is not in the Soatomes plan, Ukyo has really nothing to offer them. Since martial arts are more of a side line for her (she trained herself) to the running of a restaurant, the Soatomes really don't have much to offer her in return - unless Ukyo wishes to expand further or go exclusively into martial arts. If that is the case, then the Soatomes have more to offer than Ukyo does and the only thing Ukyo has to offer would be a steady income from her business.

So this is more likely a lose/lose deal for both or, in the case of the latter proposal, a marginal gain on Ukyo's part and a marginal gain for the Soatomes.

Tendos:
They have an established dojo for Ranma to teach in when he is ready to do so. This dovetails with the Soatomes desire to keep their family art alive and pass it on, and the Tendos would acquire a teacher to carry on their dojo into the next generation.

This would be a comfortable win/win situation for both parties.

Amazons:
As noted extensively in my arguments: They have nothing beyond martial art techniques to offer and combined with their insistence that Ranma return to China with them makes the Amazons a poor choice for long-term benefits. The Amazons would have everything to gain (a husband, breeding stock, an excellent fighter for the tribe, etc.) and the Soatomes nothing.

However, depending on how realistically you want the situation to be, there can be other factors that would come into play that work against the Amazons. These are more "real world" issues that never showed up in the manga, so I discounted them for this argument.

The conclusion is that such an arrangement would be a huge gain for the Amazons and a huge loss for the Soatomes.

Kodachi:
If wealth with the probability of power that goes along with it are determining factors, then an arrangement with the Kunos would be a sure thing. They have sizable property and wealth and most likely political and social connections as well.

A big plus that the Kunos also have is a supposedly long Samurai heritage that would fit lovely into the Saotomes mindset and, in turn, enhance their social standing. Unless the Kunos are interested in enhancing their own family's martial arts with that of the Soatomes, the Soatomes have really nothing or much to offer them beyond that.

This would be a loss or slight gain on the part of the Kunos while the Soatomes would gain outrageously big time.

Final conclusions: An arrangement with the Kunos would benefit the Soatomes the most, followed by the Tendos, which would benefit both families. Ukyo has only a marginal offering and the Amazons have really nothing tangible in the long-term. In my opinion, these are what the benefits and losses would be from each of Ranma's suitors. As stated before, these conclusions are based on the traditional Japanese mindset toward marriage as applied to these characters and events.
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Postby antimatterenergy » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:03 am

First Trimatter did you by any chance read my posts in this thread? I did mention possible benefits that Shampoo could have. If were going to list possibilities of what the Tendo's might have to offer we also have to take into account that a lot about the Amazons is unknown and they may have more benefits. I also listed in my posts that Kuno's seem to have the most to offer, followed by the Tendo's, but I listed the Amazons as unknown because we don't have enough knowledge (though her not being Japanese is a strike against her by itself).

with no visible means of supporting us in our old age?


The Amazons are not poor. We have seen that they have quite a bit of income. They could just pay people to support the Soatome's in their old ages buy paying there way. (They have magical toys and Jewels a plenty)

In a village that is more or less isolated from the rest of the world?


They have telephones and know of modern technology Shampoo even has a game system they aren't that isolated. I explained this in an earlier post of this thread in greater detail.

don't have much else to offer beyond isolation and martial arts


What about magic, faster forms of plant growth, mind controlling people, and jewels. We do see they have all of that in the manga. Again explained in earlier post in this thread.
As far as how much Akane has improved, read the first and last few volumes of the manga. Akane has definitely improved over the course of the manga while, in comparison, Shampoo has pretty much remained stagnate or improved very little.

Since canon supports this, it stands.


No proof we can not in anyway determine how much if any Shampoo has or hasn't improved. We rarely see her fight. I explained this in further detail in the Shampoo vs Akane thread.

The problem with your argument is that you are trying to prove a negative. Any scientist and lawyer will tell you that it is impossible - you cannot rule out any possibility until the correct one is proven or concrete evidence is offered. The best that you can hope for is to propose a line of argument that says "There is a high probability that the Tendos have no students" but the fact is that "probability" is in there leaves the chance of them having students in the equation.

The only way you - or anyone else for that matter - can prove that the Tendos have no students is to find the definitive proof - the smoking gun. You need to find where in the manga that shows one of the Tendos saying "We have no students". That is the only way you can win this argument. Anything else is a guess on your part and given what I have read, your guesses are based on evidence that is more nonexistent than my argument that the possibility exists.


Going on probability/possibility to support the Tendo's but not the Amazons is kind of hypocritical. A lot of the point you mention are unknown about the amazons as well.
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Postby Southern Cross » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:17 am

Another point against the Amazons is that Shampoo is cursed to turn into Ranma's greatest fear.(And is very catlike even in human form).
A point in Akane's favor is that she's the only person in Nerima who can control Ranma to any degree when he's in the neko-ken.
Also what everybody in this thread seems to be ignoring about the Kunos is their complete insanity.
If anything the whole Neriman portion of their clan needs major psychiatric help before they can be allowed freedom.
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Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:38 am

Firstly, Shampoo can get cured of her curse simply by going back to China- precisely why she hasn't done this already, knowing how much it hinders her efforts, is part of the "dumbness" needed to keep the story going the way it does (for example, Ranma being unwilling to simply walk back to the coast and swim to China like he did when he got the curse in the first place). What I'm trying to say is, it is a blow against her, but one she can fix with the greatest ease of all the cursed characters (bar Mousse, as it's simply his refusal to leave Shampoo alone that keeps him from flying back to China and getting cured). The fact that she can also offer Ranma an easy cure, by having one of her tribal sisters ship her a cask of drowned man water for example, could be considered a point in her advantage.

Secondly, Akane is the only one we've ever seen calm Ranma down, but that's perhaps because she's the one who has established the closest bond with him out of the characters who've been present when he's gone neko. Ukyo has never seen Ranma enter the cat-fist and may not even know he has it, while in the anime version of the battle for the phoenix pill, Shampoo is in cat form when Ranma-chan-neko stops fighting. I don't think the cat-fist actually gets used other than in those two occasions (introduction & final battle for the phoenix pill).
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Postby antimatterenergy » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:15 am

Another point against the Amazons is that Shampoo is cursed to turn into Ranma's greatest fear.(And is very catlike even in human form).


First the topic is how the various engagements could benefit the soatome family not individual faults/benefits to Ranma specific. Shampoo turning into a cat does not benefit the Soatome family but it also doesn't matter to the Ranma's family. To Ranma himself yes but not to his family.

A point in Akane's favor is that she's the only person in Nerima who can control Ranma to any degree when he's in the neko-ken.


We've never seen anyone else (discounting Genma) even try to control Ranma while in neko-ken and he doesn't really need anyone to control him. If he's in Neko-ken just leave him alone and eventually he'll come out of it on his own. His cat form doesn't want to hurt people it wants to play and like Ranma when not in cat doesn't inflict massive wounds on people without extremely good cause. Also Ranma does not go into Neko-ken easily required a room full of cats and a tiger showing up one time, another time he actively wanted to go cat and had one clinging to him, and another time he had a giant ghost cat licking him (and wanting to marry him).

Also what everybody in this thread seems to be ignoring about the Kunos is their complete insanity.


Yeah that is a down side but not much of one for increased social status and raw monetary gain.

Firstly, Shampoo can get cured of her curse simply by going back to China- precisely why she hasn't done this already, knowing how much it hinders her efforts, is part of the "dumbness" needed to keep the story going the way it does


In the manga Shampoo does return to her village a couple times. During the time Ranma is learning the Hiryu Shoten Ha, she is back in her village visiting friends, she later comes back with the ghost cat bell. The reason she doesn't cure her curse has nothing to do with keeping the story going, it is explained in the story. She is not allowed to cure her curse because it is punishment (temporarily suppressing it seems to be ok though). Her curing her curse or not really wouldn't make that much difference to the story since people could still pull out cats like Nabiki did (Tokyo is full of them, its even a problem that their are so many of them now).

The fact that she can also offer Ranma an easy cure, by having one of her tribal sisters ship her a cask of drownedman water for example, could be considered a point in her advantage.


That she hasn't done so implies that the Amazons have some type of law governing the usage of it, isn't allowed, or actually sees Ranma as being female as a benefit worth keeping.
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Postby FriendlyEL » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:54 pm

One thing with the game system Shampoo has, couldn't it just be something she bought after moving to Tokyo?

I would have stated my own thoughts on this subject more but it seems alot of other people have explained them much better than I could. :wink:
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Postby PCHeintz72 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:02 pm

Ehhh... why does everyone assume that a cure to the curse is easy to be had form the Amazons or Amazon village, or Jusyenkyo itself.

There is nothing in manga or anime or OAV canon I can recall to suggest such a thing. If there is, kindly point to the page/scene.

In fact, the curses mixing in the case of Taro would seem to preclude Jusenkyo itself providing a cure.

Besides, if a jusyenkyo affliction is to be considered a 'curse', I find it highly unlikely a cure would be readily available on site.

Were a cure available on site, the Guide would know, Herb would likely know, Cologne would probably know, but possibly not. Shampoo or Mousse might or might not know.
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Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:07 pm

True, it's likely she's not allowed to get cured until she wins Ranma (and she also takes trips to the village in the anime; the Ghost Cat starts with her returning, that's where she is in the Hiryu SHoten Ha trilogy, etc), but she could still change her curse to something that doesn't scare Ranma- that's one way to remove her handicap in the race without throwing off her punishment. Come to think of it, in the anime episode "Nihao, Jusenkyo Guide!", Cologne remarks to Shampoo that after the guide establishes the connection between Jusenkyo and the Tendo's koi pond and the men get cured, she should speak to him and see if he can hook it up to the drowned girl spring so she can get cured too, so maybe it isn't the law that's keeping her from getting cured.

Also, one possibility why she doesn't get a cask of drowned man water sent is simply because she and Cologne never think of the possibility of using it as a bribe or because they think it would be too much like the instant spring water debacle and hurt their chances.

Not very intelligent, I know, but frankly all of the other girls after Ranma are pretty dumb about their methods. If they smartened up, Akane -especially if she remained the way she does- would find her clutch on Ranma's heart steadily failing.

There are several times throughout both canons where it's made clear that spring of drowned boy/girl will overwrite existing Jusenkyo curses. The instant drowned man's ending makes that perfectly clear, as Ranma and Genma use it and are sitting in the koi pond, still their original species and gender. The guide delivers a cask of drowned man water to Ranma as a thank you for saving his daughter in the final story of the manga. In the anime, there are two episodes involving Japanese springs of drowned man; the first is part of the second season, and turns out to be out of order, and the second has Ryoga break the rope before the ritual is complete, so he ruins the whole thing.

The reason why nobody gets cured: first of all, it's likely that a month or two is needed for the curse to "stabilize", otherwise it will incorporate the cure-spring. Seocndly, none of the cursed characters are willing to leave Nerima to get cured for various reasons. Genma is afraid to take Ranma there because he's afraid of how it will impact on Ranma & Akane's relationship, not to mention he's lazy. Ranma has Genma and Soun holding him down, and seems to not want to have to repeat his trek (not that you can blame him- swimming to China and then hiking across maybe half the country and then turning around and going back is one hell of a distance to cross on foot). We don't know why Shampoo doesn't get cured or change curses, but Mousse isn't going to leave Nerima for such a period of time while Shampoo's there. As for Ryoga... direction sense firstly, his blind obsession with Ranma & Akane secondly.

On the subject of Taro adding octopus: Taro's curse was, frankly, a nightmarish mishmash of creatures to begin with. How do we know that his curse isn't inherently unstable and thus absorbs other curses instead of being overwritten?
Last edited by SpaceKnight of Chaos on Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Postby Jupiah » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:20 pm

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:Firstly, Shampoo can get cured of her curse simply by going back to China- precisely why she hasn't done this already, knowing how much it hinders her efforts, is part of the "dumbness" needed to keep the story going the way it does


I would say the reason Shampoo hasn't cured her curse is because she appears to actually like it. She has used it numerous times to sneak into Ranma's bed at night and to get into the bath with him. She also ENJOYS tormenting him with her cat form when he angers her, or even just for the hell of it. She can be very cruel and spiteful to Ranma.

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:(for example, Ranma being unwilling to simply walk back to the coast and swim to China like he did when he got the curse in the first place).


I imagine it would be a bit more daunting to swim to China than it was the first time when you consider he would have to do it in his girl form this time, and without his father's guidance. And Shampoo and Cologne would undoubtedly follow him and try to force him to stay. I don't think he wants to be on the same continent as the Amazon village without some backup.

The real question is: Why didn't Ranma and Genma use the spring of drowned man while they were still at Jusenkyo, immediately after getting cursed in the first place?

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:The fact that she can also offer Ranma an easy cure, by having one of her tribal sisters ship her a cask of drowned man water for example, could be considered a point in her advantage.


That is a possibility, but I doubt it would work. Some fanfiction authors have speculated that there is a 'spirit of Jusenkyo' that actively tries to prevent it's victims from being cured, by causing seemingly coincidental events to obstruct their efforts. It's impossible to prove, but there is some evidence to support this theory. First, Pantyhose Taro once brought Jusenkyo water to Japan with him in an effort to force Happosai to change his name. He thought he had 'spring of drowned good samaritan', but do to a mix-up, he actually had 'spring of drowned twins'. Only through the efforts of Ranma and company was disaster averted. Secondly, the Jusenkyo guide sent Ranma a barrel of drowned man water for his wedding gift, but a fight broke out over it between all the cursed men, and Happosai eventually drank it all, thinking it was sake. Cologne probably realizes that attempting to order some water would be pointless in the end. I think Ranma will have to actually go to Jusenkyo if he wants cured.

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:Secondly, Akane is the only one we've ever seen calm Ranma down, but that's perhaps because she's the one who has established the closest bond with him out of the characters who've been present when he's gone neko.


I seem to remember that activating Ranma's curse while he's in the Nekoken will snap him out of it. I can't find an example though; is that just fanon?
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Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:32 pm

I don't actually recall her doing either of those: she snuck into Ranma's bed and slept beside him during her introduction story, when she was purely human, and she chased him into the bath as a cat in Cologne's introductory story, and that's it. I recall her turning into a cat deliberately to punish Ranma when he insulted her during Mousse's return story, and a number of occasions where Ranma & Shampoo have been transformed together and she latches onto Ranma or remains latched onto him- and she may not have a choice about holding on, as letting go could prove fatal for a little cat.

For Taro and the drowned twins water, that could have been an honest mistake: as far as I know, there aren't any signs detailing the specific springs- it's the guide's job to memorize each spring, and considering Taro's first encounter with the guide, he may have mislead him deliberately.

As for the drowned man cask... frankly, intervention from a malevolent spirit wasn't needed in that situation. Once it became known that a cure was there, and considering their existing rivalry, a fight breaking out was more certain than the tides. As for Happosai drinking it... he's a disgusting little thief; as far as he knew, the only thing that young men could possibly be fighting over at a wedding, besides the girls, is the booze, so of course he drank it.

I don't know about the curse snapping Ranma out of it; it may have happened in the manga... wait, the anime episode "Kuno's House of Gadgets" comes to climax with Ranma-chan-neko getting washed through the house and landing in the hotsprings- a perfectly sane male Ranma promptly rises out of the water.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:30 pm

Jupiah wrote:I imagine it would be a bit more daunting to swim to China than it was the first time when you consider he would have to do it in his girl form this time, and without his father's guidance.

Akane notwithstanding, gals float better than guys. We got more, erm, buoyancy.
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Postby antimatterenergy » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:53 pm

I imagine it would be a bit more daunting to swim to China than it was the first time when you consider he would have to do it in his girl form this time


I don't really think so since it is implied he swam back from China as well. The real reason he doesn't go back is because his curse is important to the storyline.

The real question is: Why didn't Ranma and Genma use the spring of drowned man while they were still at Jusenkyo, immediately after getting cursed in the first place?


In my opinion, Takahashi hadn't thought of a cure at that point in writing. Her reason for the Guide taking Genma and Ranma to the Amazon village was probably to see if the Amazons knew of a cure or way to control it.

it's the guide's job to memorize each spring


He has a map which is stolen by the Phoenix people in volume 37 (VIZ 35).
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Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:20 pm

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of the manga at that point, so I had forgotten the guides have a map. Still, it and their memories are the only actual 'guides' to the various springs, so if the guide made a mistake or deliberately led Taro astray, Taro wouldn't have been able to tell until he actually saw it in action.

As I suggested before, the curses may need some time to stablise once received, otherwise they simply assimilate new Jusenkyo curses in the way Taro's curse does by default.

Also, though Ranma very well could repeat his trek to and from Jusenkyo, it is a rather spectacular distance to cross on foot, so you can understand why he'd be reluctant to go unless he has no choice. Not to mention, as I did before, that there is no way in hell Genma and Soun would risk him going; even beyond him perhaps deciding not to bother coming back, they wouldn't accept him being away from Akane for that long, so it's likely the only way they'd let him go would be if Akane went with him- and she'd never manage the trip.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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