A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:04 pm

Since when can Ranma use the Happo 50 yen satsu?!

Anyway, I also still say nothing Ranma can do can hurt Accellerator. He might surprise and confuse him a few times, but even the HSH won't work due to accelerator's insane defenses and redirection/vector hax, not to mention the difficulty of getting him to trigger it in the first place, since he isn't a ki user and doesn't produce that much heat or have any reason to follow Ranma in a spiral. Additionally, Accelerator would have a disturbingly easy time actually killing Ranma. The only technique of Ranma's I can think of that might work is one of the Umi-Sen-Ken attacks, which, depending on your interpretation, forces out their ki in a rather violent way with a special strike to the back, but even that might not work because of Accellerator's defense negating the pressure point aspect of it.

Really, only Touma or someone with a similar ability (maybe the main guy from Mx0 while he still has his initial spell-card, or Asuna from Mahou Sensei Negima once she learns how to control her ability) would have a chance against Accellerator... well, actually, now that I think about it, if she was willing to kill him, Biribiri's roommate/stalker could probably teleport pieces of him all over the place just by touching him. Accellerator's power is supposed to be broken, that is why it is so amazing that Touma beats him. Really, there isn't anything Ranma can pull of that would have a higher chance of harming Accellerator than what Biribiri can do, as far as I know. He can re-direct freakkin' lightning! Do you know how fast lightning moves? Ranma's speed doesn't even matter against that, the only way the Flash could beat Accellerator would be to run back in time and somehow prevent his power from developing or something ridiculous like that, given that he can redirect something that approaches light speed. Accelerator's defensive field is automatic, even slamming him into the ground or knocking him around he'll be protected, and he can, sort of, fly, if he wants to, or at least soften landings well. His automatic defenses protect his internals from G-forces anyway, so it doesn't really matter if he falls even at faster than terminal velocity or does stupidly fast turns. He probably can't even get dizzy under normal circumstances before his brain damage.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby ZeroForever » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:25 pm

the teleport trick wouldn't work as they already described how the teleport works with some puesdo science of aim moving/teleporting the material through the 5th dimension. Since aim is need at the point where the material is brought back into this dimension since his ability gets to the point that it can redirect and control even aim it would counter it.

Ranma could beat accelerator the same way the scientist did (not in the anime yet, 2nd season might get up to him though), by reversing the direction of his punch the moment it touches accelerators redirect field so instead of his punch getting redirected backwards it redirects it forward again (physically impossible in RL but in the series since a 'normal' human did it ranma could probably do it, and one punch from ranma would take initial accelerator out).
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby windstorm » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:33 pm

ZeroForever wrote:the teleport trick wouldn't work as they already described how the teleport works with some puesdo science of aim moving/teleporting the material through the 5th dimension. Since aim is need at the point where the material is brought back into this dimension since his ability gets to the point that it can redirect and control even aim it would counter it.

Ranma could beat accelerator the same way the scientist did (not in the anime yet, 2nd season might get up to him though), by reversing the direction of his punch the moment it touches accelerators redirect field so instead of his punch getting redirected backwards it redirects it forward again (physically impossible in RL but in the series since a 'normal' human did it ranma could probably do it, and one punch from ranma would take initial accelerator out).


Interesting, when in the series does that happen? Is it in the light novels because I'm pretty sure it hasn't been shown in the manga yet either.

========

Since when can Ranma use the Happo 50 yen satsu?!


Ranma can't use the Happo 50 yen satsu as far as we know, but given his history of being able to copy or reverse engineer techniques in the Ranma 1/2 series I don't think it is really a big issue. It actually is a good idea, I can't really think of a reason why Accelerator would be able to redirect a ki suction technique.

========

A few other thoughts on Accelerator. We know he can be taken down if too focused on one task, given how he was shot when removing the programming in Last Order (the youngest Misaka clone), so you could actually make a case that double teaming him with one person using a relatively constant series of attacks and the other hitting him with a projectile, fist or whatever would work. There is always an option to use poisons, potions etc in food or drink. Lastly we don't know how Accelerator is affected by illusions.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby ZeroForever » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 pm

it's in novels, don't remember which volume but the guy pummels accelerator to death, then accelerator awakens to his winged 5.5 form and smears the guy across the night sky.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:56 am

I've been catching up on the currently translated anime/manga and just read a bunch of the wikipedia article, giving away stuff from the novels not yet translated into English, and I now think I have a much better understanding of the two 'To Aru' series.

After looking at it, I've come to the conclusion that ki abilities can't be categorized into either esper powers or magic. However, I don't think Crowley and other high up people would just not know about ki users. Instead, I see, in the To Aru universe, ki would best fit as a 'primitive' early 'key' to developing magic. Unlike esper powers, it can be learned by 'nearly' anyone with enough training (especially compared to early esper powers), and consistently develops in certain ways, rather than the 'random' ways of various different espers' individual powers. However, it wasn't enough, as the levels of training required to even develop small amounts of ki ability for most people, or even talented ones, were too high in order for those who desired powers to match the espers to consider viable. Research into the differences between ki and esper abilities however was linked to some early magical developments. Also, some people don't have the potential to use ki, or at least show no signs of development, even after reaching blackbelt master type or higher levels in martial arts, and this is as mysterious, although not as well researched.

Just as espers and mages can't use the other types of powers once they start learning one, ki users can't use either of those powers without side effects, and the same for espers and mages attempting to use ki.

Some martial artists are also seeking the 'right seat of god' type position, some forms of ascension through martial arts. Saffron is actually the result of an early attempt to fuse martial arts, ki, and esper abilities, his auto-reincarnation and high level regeneration are magically induced abilities, his original incarnation was a powerful ki user, and his flame powers are an esper ability he possessed, as a high level pyrokineticist. The magical regeneration, induced via artifacts related to Jusendo, was used to counteract the damage he took from the use of ki abilities as an esper, however after his first reincarnation, he lost his martial arts abilities along with his memories, although became bound with the artifacts and Jusendo, and later side effects created Jyuusenko and the Jusendo waters that transformed the phoenix people, who came to worship him. Saffron's wings are 'fake', a part of a mystical attempt to 'force' an angel awakening, which was poorly understood at the time, which is why they were able to be passed on to the phoenix people. The Musk and Amazons' special breeding programs (with the kiss of marrige and the use of the Nyanniichuuan and chiisuiton) are also partly related to developing ki abilities to the point of awakening individuals as ki type 'angels', and developing stronger and stronger ki users each generation. Various old martial arts families in Japan have interbred their greatest heirs and such with talented martial artists who pop up from time to time in order to breed stronger ki users. Inbreeding and other issues of such lines have created such people as the Kunos, who hardly need any training to develop ki abilities but have hereditary insanity. Not all ki user groups are aware of 'angel' awakening potential, but they still have other reasons to develop stronger ki users, mostly for martial reasons in order to have power.

Not all ki use is related to martial arts, some types of shaolin monks and buddist types can develop ki abilities with pure meditation, and tai-chi was specifically developed to help train ki potential (akikido as well to a lesser degree focused in certain areas, and less balanced, being more focused on the defensive aspects), as well as reiki-healers who through special meditation and ki theory training higher level ki talents, particularly ki adepts, can use ki to heal other people. Advanced accupuncture, shiatsu, moxibition, and such are also more related to ki than magic, although they have links to psionics and magic as well, things like the full body cat's tongue and ultimate strength moxibition can only be applied by ki users.

Not all the Ranmaverse characters are ki users. Konatsu, with his ninjutsu, is a magic user, and strengthens his body via ninja magical arts. Cologne and Happosai both know bits of magic, but use it sparingly or as indirectly as possible (through use of potions and such) due to the effects magic use can have on ki users. While he usually holds back and doesn't know how to fully control it anyway, Happosai is actually 'awakened' and can take a ki-type artificial angel form. His development of this level ability in the past is the only reason the Amazons stopped hunting him to get back their various artifacts and scrolls he stole, they realize he is so far out of their league it isn't funny, and want their own 'winged-master' before they consider taking him on.

Cologne chose to teach Ranma, even before getting him properly accepting her command and accepting his 'marriage' to Shampoo partly because she has realized he might have the potential to 'awaken' like Happosai did, and she may be able to manipulate him into fighting, possibly even eliminating, Happosai for her, and he'd be much more manageable to deal with, since he is less of a thief, more honorable, less of a pervert, and has better self-control than Happosai. Teaching him the 'soul of ice' was key to ensuring he'd maintain the self-control even after awakening. Cologne also isn't pushing as hard once she realized Ranma's potential because she doesn't want him to become an enemy of the Amazons with such potential, and also doesn't want him to be controllable by her rivals if she used some means to more directly force him, such as a love potion or something that would weaken his reasoning and restrict his behavior. He is more useful as a wildcard who owes some of his best techniques to her than someone firmly under control of the Amazons in general as Shampoo's fully acknowledged husband, although she isn't opposed to him becoming Shampoo's husband willingly, particularly given how powerful their children would likely be.

Happosai was one of those Crowley consulted with a bit and got some information from that helped him in his initial development of the Academy City esper training program, along with the Heaven Canceler and other individuals, although Happosai wasn't as involved in the development of Academy City himself, and only helped in exchange for clearing up a lot of his legal issues, debt collectors, a few after him for revenge, and a large supply of wealth, booze, prostitutes, and tobacco, along with a few specific magical resources Happosai wanted, including the recipe for the rejuvenation potion he regularly uses to maintain his health and stay alive, and the research assistance that helped him improve his ability to deal with the problems he'd caused for himself over the years, which he drains female ki to compensate for. Crowley wasn't his ally by any means however, and was quite pleased when Happosai fell off the radar (after Soun and Genma sealed him in the cave), and had partly hoped him dead, as he could be a troublesome individual and interfere with Crowley's plans if he desired to.

Ranma stumbling into Academy City would likely go initially un-noticed. Crowley and the other individuals in power there are more set up to detect interference from high level espers or invading mages, of which Ranma is neither. His ki aura and personal activities would still draw attention to him however. Ranma's desire to get away from things in Nerima, particularly, including getting out from under the thumbs of some powerful martial arts figures in Nerima, the Amazons, and Happosai, and his potential to become a ki 'angel', and one far more controllable and potentially useful than Happosai would be appealing to Crowley, who would likely have his agents basically offer Ranma at least temporary sanctuary in Academy City, in exchange for a future favor, and this deal being a possible first step towards a long-term alliance. He'd also basically offer to Ranma to be the key representative of ki users to the powers behind the espers, in such a way as to appeal to Ranma's ego. Additionally, Ranma might be useful as a factor to call on to help keep key figures in Crowley's plans, such as Touma, from getting killed.

Ranma meanwhile would likely want access to potential curse related stuff from Index's knowledge, (if he doesn't get cured outright by Imagine Breaker, or if she becomes trapped as a girl by being touched by Imagine Breaker in the wrong form, depending on how you have Jyuusenkyo curses operate) and would be quick to jump into various conflicts if he stumbles across injustices. He'd also enjoy the high level security of Academy City helping him hide from being tracked down by the fiancee brigade, and the Amazons in particular. Not even Ryoga can get into Academy City, as apparently his ability to get lost involves a form of uncontrolled teleportation using the same nodes the Amaksusa (sp?) group use, but Crowley took specific measures to keep that Hibiki clan out of the city, due to their high level destructive potential, short-tempers, tendency to hold grudges, ki adept abilities, and the fact that if one got in, they might have a chance to break into his windowless room unauthorized due to their subconscious ability to jump along well used teleporation paths, and his fears of a Hibiki being used to slip through his defenses somehow. Although he doesn't give this info away to Ranma, as it is something he'd prefer to keep secret to avoid someone trying to smuggle in a Hibiki.

While Ranma isn't an esper, some aspects of esper training are closely related enough to ki training that going to esper classes and performing related meditation and some of the training and studying can help him, so long as he doesn't go through the proper 'curriculum' and try to activate any potential esper abilities, which would ruin his ki abilities, making them dangerous for him to use. This means he can even go to school in Academy City, likely under an assumed name in order to avoid any records shared with the outside from being used to track him down.

Also, Komoe doesn't know it, but she ate one of the mushrooms from that one forest that Ryoga got them from when she was younger, which is the reason she got stuck as a child. She became fully adult while her body was trapped that way, so even though she has since been freed of the mushroom's 'curse' without awareness of it by contact with the Imagine Breaker of Touma's (without either of them realizing anything happened, as Touma wasn't aware of magick at that point) she was already 'adult' so no longer had the hormones and such telling her to grow. She was friends with Hinako in College (due to sympathizing about each-other's conditions), and knows about ki abilities from Hinako. She'll get info about Ranma from Hinako, as well as use her friendship with Hinako to convince Hinako to send over Ranma's school records discreetly and not give away Ranma's location.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:57 am

Um, the above post is just ideas I had about how Ranma and ki stuff and such could interact with the 'To Aru' setting. Feel free to use them, or not, at your leisure. Sorry if it is a bit long.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Knight of L-sama » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:44 am

Nekomata-sensei wrote:Just as espers and mages can't use the other types of powers once they start learning one, ki users can't use either of those powers without side effects, and the same for espers and mages attempting to use ki.


This part I'm not so sure of. Mainly because its not so much that espers can't use magic but that when they try to there's a backlash that causes injury, something along the lines of their Personal Reality interfering with how magic works (if I understood Index correctly). You'd need a decent explanation for why such a case would be for ki which is supposed to be innate to all living things. After all why should learning how to shatter concrete with a single finger interfere with something like Konori Mii's X-Ray vision or Uiharu's ability to set deltaS = 0 indefinitely.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Zwzn » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:48 am

Nekomata-sensei wrote:The Imagine Breaker will break even the most powerful of curses, at the cost of Touma's luck, just by touching the victim, regardless of Touma's will. Touma would likely suffer a lot if he broke Ranma's curse, both because Jyuusenkyo curses would have to be pretty powerful to be permanent and high class shape-shifting that can happen a lot, without feeding off the power of the victim in any noticeable way. Depending on how you have the Jyuusenkyo curse work, there could be issues though. For instance, if it is a 'true' change each time, rather than a false form imposed on the natural form, and Touma were to touch Ranma with his imagine breaker hand while Ranma is in female form, Ranma would become stuck as a real girl without the curse able to change her back (which could allow for an onna-Ranma story or a plot point while Ranma tries to find a way to turn back male, possibly getting his/her hands on some spring of drowned man water, then having Touma touch him while in male form with the Imagine Breaker. Either way, it should cure Ranma's curse, or at the very least, depending on your interpretation of things, prevent Ranma from changing while Touma's hand is touching him/her. I like the idea of an onna-Ranma fic of sorts, where Ranma was planning a short training trip, but due to Touma's imagine breaker, gets stuck female, and doesn't want to return to Nerima until she is male, or at least able to be male again. It could give motivation for Ranma to stick around in Academy city, particularly if Index's knowledge becomes the best hope of becoming a man again.

Considering both Herb and Ranma are noticeably less capable in girl the the curses may feed off the victim's Ki.
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Re: A Certain Arrogant Horse (Ranma / Index / Railgun)

Postby Mitchell » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:33 pm

Are they? its been a while but I was fairly sure other than one or two story arcs that nobody ever really mentioned any lessening of capabilities.

However I guess it could happen.
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