How valid is Ukyo's engagement?

[MageOhki]

As for this stuff with Gaijin, it seems he is seeing this from a Japanese point of view. He's not talking about how an American society does it - he's saying Japanese society handles it differently. The Japanese consider verbal contracts to be binding just as we consider written ones to.
> He Is. Very much so.
In this situation Ukyo and Ranma's fathers would be forced by society, since it is established that they did have such a contract, to discuss it and come to a satisfactory agreement. Ukyo and Ranma have nothing to do with it legally (though they can do what they like themselves), since the contract is between their fathers. Because it's not being fulfilled, they should be bound to sorting it out themselves in a peaceful fashion. Unless they want to take it to court - which as Gaijin mentioned is a Bad Thing in Japan.
> I do so love understatement.
On a somewhat related note, am I the only person who despises the word "claim" in this context?[/quote]
>*snerk*
Isn't _quite_ right, anyways.
Basically, I'll take the "three" primary "fiancees" in order
Shan Pu: She's a chinese. You're kidding, right? She's got NO claim in Japanese eyes. To be cold, she HAS no claim.
Ukyo: I get the impression that the agreement was between FATHERS.
not clan heads, nor families, nor schools.
She's got some possible giri in Ranma's eyes (with or without the dowry)
but... that's wiped becasue SHE REFUSED THE ENGAGEMENT.
It's dead, chums. When she stated (Viz, NPR, orginal sorce all have the same vaule meaning) that she was NOT there for the engagement and attacked Genma FIRST (as was right), she negated the engagment.
No engagement there, boyos.
Which, leaves the Tendos.
EOS.
(ANY Tendo. Ranma has NOT by WORDS chosen a fiancee.)
Andrew

[MageOhki]

[quote="Drawde"]Although I haven't confirmed ALL this information, this is what I've picked up in my various readings. LEGALLY, the engagement is invalid. The UN declared arranged marriages illegal (all marriages have to be agreed upon by BOTH parties, comfirmed). Although it wouldn't stop families from applying pressure, arranged marriages can't be enforced legally. And the Japanese legal system doesn't recognize honor.
> Sheayh RIGHT. Keep dreaming. This is the MOST common MISCONCEPTION I've seen.
Japanese written law != what the courts RULE.
Second: UN rulings are only if the nation chooses to enforce them.
Third: Sure, they might not have any written LEGAL standing...
And would never see court... (which that part's true. Courts would run away screaming from a honor bound situation)
BUT... they ARE enforced... by the SOICEITY.
A

[Greybara]

i think you missed the point the engagements are invalid, because aranged marrages are invalid,
just like slavery is illegal but it still occurs, does this stop it from being any less illegal? of course not

[MageOhki]

Ranma is very, very unlikely to take the Tendo name for a few reasons.
Reason 1. Ranma is the only son and if he were to take Akane's name it would kill off his clan. Where as Akane has two sisters to pass the family name on as well as the fact that Akane is the youngest of them. In Japan if their are no sons to pass on the family name it would generally be the eldest daughter who marries a man to take on the family name.
>This is the big reason, yes.
Reason 2. If Ranma were to take the tendo's name (called mukoyoshi in Japan, practice of being adopted into wifes clan and taking their family name) it is considered by most Japanese to be a very unmanly thing to do and that would definately go against Ranma's mom's views on manliness.
> *blinks* Umm... WHERE do you get this from? It's not unmanly, in >fact, in several cases I know if, it's QUITE "honorable" which is the >typcial defintion of manly. In fact, it's not uncommon... though it's >changing somewhat.
Reason 3. It is not uncommon for men to be ridiculde by the community for taking the wifes name (it isn't all that uncommon over here in the US either).
> *blink* Depends why, there. "Uncommon" is _not_ saying
> "common", and I've known of several cases where the man was not
> and can't think of one where he was. See below.
If Ranma was going to be adopted into the Tendo clan and take the tendo name it could of even should of happened sometime during the manga since the adoption into the clan can happen before the marriage.
Can, and acutally is SUPPOSED to, 6 weeks to 6 months depending
on the clan invovled.
Okay: Reasons why names are taken
1. Soical standing is top. (I think you're thinking of the case where a lower class wife's name is taken, and yes, there would be some ridcuing of the man in that case.) Given Soun's standing in the community (Manga)... edge: Tendos.
2. How many people on each side to contuine the clan name.
Edge clearly to the Satomes, here. (this would also include the 'rank' in birth order of the couple, too)
3. Wealth/what each brings to the marriage. Edge? Toss up with a SLIGHT edge to the Tendos...
4. Several other factors, too many to list here... all comes down to a lot of things...
While, yes, I belive that Akane would become a Satome, not Ranma a tendo, and the manga's words tend to bear that out, it's certanity NOT out of the relams of possiblity that Ranma would take the Tendo name.
Ukyou? Most certainty to take Ranma's name. Status differences there.
Kodachi... lean towards her taking the same route, as well.
Shan Pu, pretty much the same, in Japanese soiceity (assuming Ranma was... rude enough to marry such a woman, that is)

I don't know _where_ you get the idea a man who marries INTO a family is laughed at. It's _very_ rare for this to happen, and usually invovles a _major_ disparity of soical status, those don't happen often, in fact. In fact, if _you_ do laugh at that, he'd be not arrested for killing you. Unless you have _real_ pull, chum.
Andrew

[MageOhki]

i think you missed the point the engagements are invalid, because aranged marrages are invalid,
just like slavery is illegal but it still occurs, does this stop it from being any less illegal? of course not

>>
<<
It's not illegal, is the point I'm making, here. it's EXTRAlegal, or to be more presice soical law, not written law.
A court would not hear ethier side (unless really convinced), period.
Assuming it'd be even TAKEN there.
Issues like this are sovled by the SOCIETY. Not the courts.
If Ranma DID _NOT_ marry Akane, he'd NOT be allowed in any dojo, for example.
Would not be allowed to test for his dogi, etc, etc... It's not "written" law. It's tradtion. Which is incredibly hard to break.
A.

[TerraEpon]

Of course, there ALSO the fact that...well...this IS a world where people can lead buildings and have water curses that work.
Who's to say the laws aren't different?
-Joshua

[antimatterenergy]

MageOhki- my wording was wrong when I said unmanly I meant to say unmasculine. It is considered unmasculine by many Japanese because traditionally the woman is adopted into the clan and not the guy. This is changing though, it no longer is seen as unmasculine as it once was but many Japanese still see it to be an unmasculine thing to do. If I implied that it wasn't honorable I'm sorry because it is honorable. Now Nodoka's view on manliness may not allow him to do that because traditionally the woman is adopted into a clan.
I did not mean to say that the community at large would make fun of him or laugh at him. I meant when a man takes the woman's name many times there is some ridicule mostly by other guys. This isn't condemation and doesn't really effect anyones life. People will say things like doesn't the wife take the guy's name. etc... usually only joking around but Ranma is likely to take those kind of thing personally because of his curse. So Ranma is a little less likely to take the tendo name to avoid people saying things like that.
As I had already said there are other reasons as well as to why Ranma wouldn't take the Tendo's name but I don't know all of them off the top of my head and I don't feel like listing all of them at the moment. I also didn't say that Ranma wouldn't take the Tendo's name because there are a few reasons that he would be better off becoming a Tendo instead of staying a Soatome but it very unlikely that he would do so.

[WarGiver]

I will agree with Antimatterenergy on the points for now about the dowery. But my point still stands. An engagement is still only as valid as both sides agree to keep it. anything else not withstanding.
My point with marrying into the Tendo Clan was over the Dojo, and reasons for backing it. Face it this way. At the end of the Manga the 'poor' Saotomes lost their home. While the 'decently doing' Tendos still had theirs. Ranma was set to inherit the Dojo and likely the Tendo home, Soun intended for Ranma to help carry on the TENDO family Legacy. If Ranma Stays a Saotome and gains the home, then it ends the family legacy of owning the Dojo. Thus either he never intended to give the Dojo itself to Ranma, and wait for Kasumi to marry someone and bring in a Tendo couple to carry on tendo family tradition, or He intended to give the Dojo and likely house to Ranma and have him marry in as a Tendo.
Thus it is likely that the parrents were all likely on different pages of what was going on. Ranma as the Saotome heir cannot be used here, if that is used here then the same arguement can be used that Akane cannot be the Tendo Heir since she will be marrying out of her family. Ranma is also recognized by Happosai as the 'True' Heir either way, so either arguement is equally invalid when bringing up who is whose heir.
Before anyone says that Nodoka likely has insurance on her home, if she were really that hurt for money then I doubt she would have any.

[MageOhki]

This is to Anti.
*sigh*
Again. WHERE do you get this idea?
I've LIVED in Tokyou. I have freinds in Osaka and Kyoto, and other parts of Honshu.
_I_ don't know of a single man who'd be laughed at.
Now, _mabye_ parts of Kyshu (espically around Nagasaki), possible.
Still...
Andrew
(who's done with this)

[antimatterenergy]

MageOhki: I got my views from several Japanese people I used to know as well as a few books on Japan. I maybe mislead as to how common it is but just because you don't know anyone who would ridicule a person for taking the wifes name doesn't mean that their aren't people who would, generally less mature people i.e. teens and old very traditional people who still see it as a womans place to change clans and not a guys.
Wargiver: There are several options. One like you say the parents haven't came to a decision. Two it could be changed to the Soatome-Tendo Dojo. Three it could stay the Tendo Dojo but teach the Saotome School. and Four Ranma can become a Tendo. Their are probably more ways as well.

[Greybara]

i think you missed the point the engagements are invalid, because aranged marrages are invalid,
just like slavery is illegal but it still occurs, does this stop it from being any less illegal? of course not

>>
<<
It's not illegal, is the point I'm making, here. it's EXTRAlegal, or to be more presice soical law, not written law.
A court would not hear ethier side (unless really convinced), period.
Assuming it'd be even TAKEN there.
Issues like this are sovled by the SOCIETY. Not the courts.
If Ranma DID _NOT_ marry Akane, he'd NOT be allowed in any dojo, for example.
Would not be allowed to test for his dogi, etc, etc... It's not "written" law. It's tradtion. Which is incredibly hard to break.
A.

why would you need to make a lawsuit out of it? once you get to the "i do's" you say your "i donts" and get on with your life, you dont need a court for that.
secondly what makes you think ranma wouldnt be allowed in any dojo? i dont recall dojos asking "have you dishonored any agreements in your personal life? have you refused arranged marrages before?"
ranma is the best martial artist ever if he refused there wouldnt be much of a dojo to come to, especialy with inheritence tax, soun and genmas lazyness, and akanes impatience and hate for boys. theyd probably just hand it over to akane or stoop to begging and pleading for ranma to accept the engagement.

[MageOhki]

This is my final word on this thread.
Look, Anti? I lived in Japan, for a lot. I _grew_ up there. At -least- 1 of my classmates married into a family (equal status, and the girl was a only child, he had a older brother)
Tradional familes ESPICALLY wouldn't laugh. it's NOT uncommon amoung those, since they're the most likey to GIVE a damm about the clan name cotiuning.
Now. Young immature? Sure. Quite possible. Brats are brats.
But it is NOT uncommon for younger sons to marry into a different clan for various reasons (now, usually to make sure a family stays alive)
Like I said, Nagasaki area, I could _MABYE_ see it. I dunno. I was only in Nagasaki for a few days. Honshu, not a chance.
Last post in reply to me.
Sure. Ranma's the most skilled martial artist. Doesn't mean diddly. If he dishonors his clan, his sensei and his father by not marrying a Tendo (not Akane, just -a- tendo) he's proven himself unworthy to be a martial artist.
You're thinking American. Don't. Doesn't work that way.
Example: I could be the best of the best in oh, say...
Ah! making kimonos.
However, if I dishonored my family in a way, by disobeying what they thought was best for me, very few people would BUY from me.
So... see how it works? If Ranma chose to go ronin, (which is a vaild idea) several clans likey ARE eyeing picking him up. But he'd have to formally renconce his name (and that's a other grounds for harrasment)
_and_ eat road dirt for a bit, AND basically go though all the hoops to regain his "standing"... though it's quite likey several clans _would_ help him to do so.
As long as he remains a Satome, though, his giri means he HAS to marry a Tendo, to be a Japanese person.
Can't explain it clearler than that. If you aren't seeing it, sorry.
Andrew

[MageOhki]

Oh, and Dojo's don't _ask_, no.
You forget. Japan is a land of who you know, taken to extremes, folks.
Ranma would _need_ references, and if he dishonored his clan, he'd not get them. that simple.
People find these things out, folks... even if you're from, oh, say, Osaka, and are trying to get into HIroshima. People WILL find out.
Andrew

[Greybara]

your being extremely crytpic and illogical, why would he need references?
who would he need to know, and what for? how would they find out they just will? are they physcic? people dont just find things out, theres a leak or someone has to ask a question, who are they going to ask? what if ranma dosent tell them?
why in the hell traveling to hiroshima relivent and why would traveling to hiroshima some how inform people that you dishonored your clan?
do all clan dishonorers move to hiroshima?

[MageOhki]

your being extremely crytpic and illogical, why would he need references?
who would he need to know, and what for? how would they find out they just will? are they physcic? people dont just find things out, theres a leak or someone has to ask a question, who are they going to ask? what if ranma dosent tell them?
why in the hell traveling to hiroshima relivent and why would traveling to hiroshima some how inform people that you dishonored your clan?
do all clan dishonorers move to hiroshima?

*sigh* Look. Japan's a nation of who you know. If, oh, say Gaijin walked into a Dojo and ran the mat, they'd want to know who taught him... and they'd check on it, to see what trainer thinks of his student.
PLUS, in various fields, everyone knows everyone else.
it's just the way it is.
I _USED_ Hiroshima as an EXAMPLE, 'kay?
Andrew