Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

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Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:41 am

This has been bugging me recently. It's something that comes up often enough in fan-fiction, but -- for the life of me -- I don't recall Ranma ever figuring out that someone was trained as a fighter of any degree or type by their body language. Does it ever happen?
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby LawOhki » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:54 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:This has been bugging me recently. It's something that comes up often enough in fan-fiction, but -- for the life of me -- I don't recall Ranma ever figuring out that someone was trained as a fighter of any degree or type by their body language. Does it ever happen?

Tofu.

But yes the way people do it is usually in an annoying and poorly written way to cheaply introduce a character.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Dumbledork » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:32 am

With Tofu it's not about the way he moves, but (if I remember correctly) that Ranma didn't detect his approach.
And that's the bottom line 'cause Dumbledork said so.

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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:34 pm

That would be right.

LawOhki wrote:But yes the way people do it is usually in an annoying and poorly written way to cheaply introduce a character.

And/or it's a way to skimp out on any real depth in storytelling from the perspective of Ranma, who's on the up-and-up on what one might expect, yeah.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby LawOhki » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:10 pm

Dumbledork wrote:With Tofu it's not about the way he moves, but (if I remember correctly) that Ranma didn't detect his approach.

Which would require that he moves in a very silent, controlled way. Ranma doesn't have any kind of "ki" sense where he feels people out save extreme examples like Akane's anger aura. So he relies on his senses to tell what's going on around him.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:And/or it's a way to skimp out on any real depth in storytelling from the perspective of Ranma, who's on the up-and-up on what one might expect, yeah.

Probably the same laziness that makes authors use canon characters in new roles rather than coming up with any kind of decent OC. Even when the role is completely contrary to their established characters and creates major plot holes in their canon appearances.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:43 pm

Personally, I prefer to avoid adding original characters if I can help it. I'd rather accomplish new things with characters that people know (without going too out-of-character) and get called out for any mistakes I make than getting into the even more volatile and opinionated gauntlet involved with filling a particular role with an original character. I assume people read fan-fiction because they're a fan of preexisting characters, so...

LawOhki wrote:Which would require that he moves in a very silent, controlled way. Ranma doesn't have any kind of "ki" sense where he feels people out save extreme examples like Akane's anger aura. So he relies on his senses to tell what's going on around him.

Tofu sneaking up on him did not involve Ranma using his eyes to figure out that Tofu was a martial artist, though.

If by "feels people out," you mean sensing their mood/emotions, I can't say for certain if he can or not, but I'm pretty sure he can sense someone's presence because of ki, unless they're good at hiding it (which might apply to the example with Tofu). Even Akane can sense someone's presence because of their ki. Being able to tell who the ki belongs to seems possible (regarding Happosai identifying Genma despite being a panda), but whether Ranma can do that is an unknown(?) as well.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby LawOhki » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:53 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Tofu sneaking up on him did not involve Ranma using his eyes to figure out that Tofu was a martial artist, though.

Yes but Ranma could tell by Tofu being able to sneak up on him that he's had training, even says it. Not directly him using his eyes, but eyes would make it even more apparent for him if he's able to tell simply by not being able to notice someone.

If by "feels people out," you mean sensing their mood/emotions, I can't say for certain if he can or not, but I'm pretty sure he can sense someone's presence because of ki, unless they're good at hiding it (which might apply to the example with Tofu). Even Akane can sense someone's presence because of their ki. Being able to tell who the ki belongs to seems possible (regarding Happosai identifying Genma despite being a panda), but whether Ranma can do that is an unknown(?) as well.

Examples? And Happi says that' it's Genma's eyes that give him away.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Spica75 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:25 pm

This has been bugging me recently. It's something that comes up often enough in fan-fiction, but -- for the life of me -- I don't recall Ranma ever figuring out that someone was trained as a fighter of any degree or type by their body language. Does it ever happen?


I´ll say this at least, it IS definitely realistic that he might spot SOME martial artists by walk, body language and such.



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LawOhki wrote:Probably the same laziness that makes authors use canon characters in new roles rather than coming up with any kind of decent OC. Even when the role is completely contrary to their established characters and creates major plot holes in their canon appearances.


More often than lazy, it´s the anti-OC obsession that is very common. The idea that if they CAN use ANY canon character for a role, even if it is utterly stupid, than they should use it rather than create an OC.

Personally, if there´s a need for additional characters, and there´s noone suitable, then OCs it is. OR, i borrow more or less of a character from another series. That actually tend to work surprisingly well.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:48 pm

LawOhki wrote:Yes but Ranma could tell by Tofu being able to sneak up on him that he's had training, even says it. Not directly him using his eyes, but eyes would make it even more apparent for him if he's able to tell simply by not being able to notice someone.

Those two things are unrelated. Just because he can attest that Tofu is a skilled martial artist because he was able to sneak up on him does not mean that he would be able to tell that he would be capable of doing that by observing how he moves with his eyes. There's a big difference between evidence and confirmation gained from practical experience (getting sneaked up on), and simultaneously at that, and picking up clues that lead to the deduction without an experience to confirm it.

Examples? And Happi says that' it's Genma's eyes that give him away.

Examples of what? The only thing I'm certain of is them being able to sense the presence of ki, so I guess I'll assume that's what you're asking about. The quintessential example is the story arc involving the umisen-ken. The whole point is to hide one's ki, so they can't be tracked when they move faster than the eye can see. This suggests that those among the best martial artists probably have this skill. As for Akane, she explicitly states that she no longer feels the presence of Ranma's ki during his fight with Ryu.

Happosai says, "haven't changed a bit, have you," in the Viz translation. I'm not going with it just because it's official or Viz, but it also fits better within the context and I don't see why Viz would make such a significant change in meaning when it serves no logical purpose. It just seems more likely that the other translation was either: one, poor; two, done by a translator who took it upon themselves to give an explicit explanation for Happosai's recognition where none had been before. Another explanation that I'm willing to believe, however, is that Happosai is no stranger to magical transformations and assumed that Genma would be nearby, and Genma's behavior -- of trying to avoid him -- clued him in.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Blackcat101 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:12 pm

The problem with using Ocs is how not to make them Mary Sues or take over the story.


In my story Secret Magical Girls Academy, the Ocs are all teachers and school staff, so while their role is important, they are not the protagonists. I still have to decide who will be the magical girls who are part of Ranma's team. And putting a character in a different role or situation is half of the fun of writing a fanfic, as long as your can keep that person being in character.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby LawOhki » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:37 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Those two things are unrelated. Just because he can attest that Tofu is a skilled martial artist because he was able to sneak up on him does not mean that he would be able to tell that he would be capable of doing that by observing how he moves with his eyes. There's a big difference between evidence and confirmation gained from practical experience (getting sneaked up on), and simultaneously at that, and picking up clues that lead to the deduction without an experience to confirm it.

Anyone, even in real life, trained to do something and has done it long enough to be good at it can see when others are else well. If they are good enough it doesn't take much more than a glance. Ranma may not be able to know the full extent of someone's ability but he should be more than capable of picking up that they aren't some amateur. If he can't then he's a terrible martial artist.

Quit trying to split such worthlessly fine hairs. :roll:
Examples of what? The only thing I'm certain of is them being able to sense the presence of ki, so I guess I'll assume that's what you're asking about. The quintessential example is the story arc involving the umisen-ken. The whole point is to hide one's ki, so they can't be tracked when they move faster than the eye can see. This suggests that those among the best martial artists probably have this skill. As for Akane, she explicitly states that she no longer feels the presence of Ranma's ki during his fight with Ryu.

False, the point of the umisenken is to not be noticed and there's nothing that supports them using 'ki' to track movements. If there was it would have came up in the quintessential story for that, the cats tongue arc.

No, Akane does not mention sensing ki, but that Ranma's presence is vanishing or being extinguished. This is the ki that she uses. And the use of it is 'to go out' or 'to vanish'

Repeatedly fights in Ranma where ki is mentioned at all, show that it's simply a by product of being 'heated by battle' and the HSH arc puts it plainly that being excited like that produces a hot presence by default which creates an air around the person that can be felt. The umisenken arc illustrates that by default people produce an aura of notice unless actively suppressed. So throughout the manga when Ranma is sneaking up on people, he's partially doing that, and then put in that situation he takes it to the extreme.

Happosai says, "haven't changed a bit, have you," in the Viz translation. I'm not going with it just because it's official or Viz, but it also fits better within the context and I don't see why Viz would make such a significant change in meaning when it serves no logical purpose. It just seems more likely that the other translation was either: one, poor; two, done by a translator who took it upon themselves to give an explicit explanation for Happosai's recognition where none had been before. Another explanation that I'm willing to believe, however, is that Happosai is no stranger to magical transformations and assumed that Genma would be nearby, and Genma's behavior -- of trying to avoid him -- clued him in.

I overstated on the eyes thing, which I think is the anime now that I consider it. Either way, nothing to support him reading Genma by some kind of ki signature.

Blackcat101 wrote:The problem with using Ocs is how not to make them Mary Sues or take over the story.

That's not the problem with OC's that's the problem with lazy writing and establishing of a character.
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Re: Does Ranma spot martial artists by the way they move?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:39 am

LawOhki wrote:Anyone, even in real life, trained to do something and has done it long enough to be good at it can see when others are else well. If they are good enough it doesn't take much more than a glance. Ranma may not be able to know the full extent of someone's ability but he should be more than capable of picking up that they aren't some amateur. If he can't then he's a terrible martial artist.

Quit trying to split such worthlessly fine hairs. :roll:

I'm not splitting hairs. You're just failing to understand the difference and chasing a red herring. This is about determining someone's skills by look alone, first, not after picking up other clues that help that deduction along, and especially not after they've already gotten a taste of what someone can do. It's a large leap in logic to assume that being sneaked up on, which gives Ranma a good enough idea of how good Tofu is as a martial artist, means that he would be able to come to that conclusion if he had seen Tofu moving around without the intention to sneak up on him before getting to experience what he is capable of firsthand.

Hence, if someone knows whether Ranma has ever gauged someone's ability just by looking at them, outside of them actually demonstrating their ability at the time (instead of, say, just walking, for example), then I'll accept it. How accurate Ranma is, if he is shown to do it, is not important.

False, the point of the umisenken is to not be noticed and there's nothing that supports them using 'ki' to track movements.

Incorrect. It's true that the point of the umisen-ken is to be subtle, but it does involve hiding ki so one can't be tracked. This is clearly illustrated by Soun, who said, "Saotome's 'ki...' his presence... just vanished," even though he could not see Genma, who was some distance away in another room. Also note that presence and ki are used synonymously, here.

If there was it would have came up in the quintessential story for that, the cats tongue arc.

How so? If you're referring to following hand movements, that was a matter of physical speed. Even if Ranma could sense Cologne's movements, that doesn't mean that he's physically capable of making adequate use of that information.

No, Akane does not mention sensing ki, but that Ranma's presence is vanishing or being extinguished. This is the ki that she uses. And the use of it is 'to go out' or 'to vanish'

Akane says, "Ranma's ki just vanished," and I said, "she no longer feels the presence of Ranma's ki." How do they not express the same idea? Plus, for her to say that something vanished, she must have sensed it in the first place.

Repeatedly fights in Ranma where ki is mentioned at all, show that it's simply a by product of being 'heated by battle' and the HSH arc puts it plainly that being excited like that produces a hot presence by default which creates an air around the person that can be felt. The umisenken arc illustrates that by default people produce an aura of notice unless actively suppressed. So throughout the manga when Ranma is sneaking up on people, he's partially doing that, and then put in that situation he takes it to the extreme.

That's arguable, and any inconsistency should be laid at Takahashi's feet, or -- perhaps -- the translator's. A lot's done with ki throughout the series, though, and ki is clearly tangible, not (just) a byproduct of a nebulous nature. When it came to those emotion-fueled attacks, for instance, that was ki. If ki is not the cause for one's presence, battle aura and the temperature and weight changes, then what -- pray tell -- is behind all of that phenomenon? If not ki, I'd seriously like to know the key piece involved with how the mechanics of these things work.

I overstated on the eyes thing, which I think is the anime now that I consider it. Either way, nothing to support him reading Genma by some kind of ki signature.

Maybe. I did say "seems possible," as it was not the one thing that I felt sure about, and I did offer an alternative explanation.
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