The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossover]

This is for posting Fiction and C&C replies ONLY. Note this does not have to be a "fukufic" or even fanfiction. All completed /ready-for0review longform creative writing allowed. No posting of individual scenes; that is what the Outlines and Scenes section is for.Replying posts must give actual commentary, no "GREAT IDEA" or "THIS SUCKS".

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:18 am

By this point, I'm satisfied I more or less understand the state of Britannia's weapons laws. By now, I'm just fishing for excuses for some of the non-combatants being trained and armed.

Particularly Shirley. If Billy versus SNAKEMAN is anything to go by, in canon she died on suspect grounds. The higher end of what I'm thinking of is weapons training, being prepared for death, and a pistol in her room. Lower end is just dying well.


It's available, if she's interested and willing to cough up the cash. But in a society with a fairly low crime rate like most of the first world, not everyone has the interest. Even if you're perfectly free to carry a weapon around wherever you go, not everyone thinks it's necessary or fun to take advantage of it. I would consider it wise, but then, I spend half my week learning how to use a sword, so I'm not exactly a representative sample.

I assumed but may have neglected to explicitly state that I was working off Britannia owning all the North American colonies. Yes, I forgot about south and central american gold, but one cannot eat gold. I was more concerned about Craftsmen and arable land under cultivation. I figure that Britannia could not simply buy or hire enough of these from Europe under the cognate of The Terror, no matter the gold. If the colonies had the population density that this wouldn't be a problem, I imagine that they also had the population to support another round of the Revolution.

I still figure they did the whole partial downsize and settle onto land thing, but that is just my pet theory for my own WSoD, when I haven't been reading enough PI AARs.


Arable land is highly accessible. The Americas consistently had better food sources than Europe around the colonization period (the locals were consistently taller and prettier than the explorers - according to the explorers - because they actually had enough to eat, and Mesoamerica had some incredible plants that they bred from almost nothing: see, tomato, corn). So food supplies are not only okay, but better than.

Craftsmen would have been harder. Which is a good part of the reasoning behind the Numbers/Honourary system. Don't just conquer them, integrate them, make 'em feel Britannian, proud to be Britannian, and part of your efforts as you go on to the next region.

Britannia didn't have total control of the continent at the time of the transfer, nor were they the sole European presence. But they were the dominant European presence (mostly in USA/Canada), and since the Americas were their only holdings, they quickly strove to first achieve total European control, and then full control in general. The handling of other European colonies varied - some needed to be conquered, some were willing to sign over on the basis of 'at least they're fucking civilized'.

It could be both. Just because she is functional, mostly, does not make her sane.

She lives in a Tokusatsu world, with Mecha and, OOC, CLAMP was involved. And that is before Nasu is mixed in.


Yeah, the world's crazy and she's a 'suitable' part of it.

The political worldbuilding in Geass does not strike me as being as absurd as I find most Gundam, so either Sunrise was slacking off or your canon is a strong enough influence on me that it is leaking over into my watching experience.


Heh. Good to hear.

I'll admit that my view on the war between America and Japan is probably just as offensive from the viewpoint of many Japanese nationals.


If you mean in WW2, then possibly. But being offended doesn't really make 'em right. There were atrocities, racism, and general inhumanities on both sides, but Japan seems to have managed a fair lead on being worse to their 'Co-Prosperity Sphere'. (And opened the matter up, to start with, which is worth at least a few points)

Now that I think about it, isn't this pretty much the tack you are taking with most of the adaptation?


How so?

If you mean the general 'low military quality of the resistance pre-Zero', then yeah. They really aren't that good. I don't know whether it was intended, but it generally fits, and it allows me to note the 'horrendously unwise' things they do without having to pretend it's competence.

(They really did learn their tradecraft from spy movies. Where else would they find instruction without pre-invasion or foreign contacts?)

I dunno if it was CLAMP or Sunrise that was watching too much Tokusatsu when they put the show together, or both.


It's worth noting that Lelouch is, canonically, a fan of the genre. (In one of the side materials - the one touching on Britannia's history, in fact - Suzaku commented that Lelouch used to watch that kind of show avidly)

He's less of a lone ranger this time around.


I had to say it.

You know, I think Nero would have been a patrician. If the Roman laws for Prostitutes and blonde wigs are anything to go by, I'd imagine the patricians would tend towards dark hair.


Nero, in the Nasuverse.

Maybe she wore a dark wig for her station, though. She certainly crossdressed to fit in to begin with.

More seriously, he hasn't really had the opportunity to change nationality.


That and he's a prince of it. Even if he can change the label, it isn't going to change where he's from, or what he feels about that background.

Seems a maturing experience.


The Holy Grail War tends to be that, doesn't it?

Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.


Which they actually managed in this timeline!

Gil: Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of myself...


... I could actually see him singing that.

And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!


He was actually offered the job as Founding King of Britannia. The Temptation in the desert didn't get recorded quite exactly.

Nasty thought those.


Though as noted in the Wise Up, the First didn't plot out her life. Her life was fucked up by the same things that fucked his life up, and what little involvement he managed was (generally) positive.

An EMIYA Archer just isn't Archer without the tangy zip of a secret agenda hidden from his Master.


It just doesn't fit otherwise, does it?

That might be a problem, wasn't it Takara?


Yeah. Kallen's not exactly in a mood to be considering 'there was no humanly possible way to predict that outcome', and hasn't consciously cranked around to realizing it was up there to save lives. Honestly, if Takara realized the causal link, she'd be very distressed herself.

There is a case for enforcing enough law on the ghetto to require everybody to keep ID on them.


Quite feasibly, but it looks like Britannia mostly doesn't go in. Clovis's policy in administration was 'speed integration as far as possible', and leaving the ghettoes shitholes was one good way to make people inclined towards Honourary status and appreciating the difference between 'Japan' (the ghettoes) and 'Area 11' (the Britannian settlements). It also leaves a high breeding ground towards rebellion, which Clovis's administration kept muted to a dull roar through Refrain, and just killing any rebels that did manage to pop up.

In terms of 'unpleasantness for the populace', it's easily the worst policy (short of actively massacring them), but it is very fast for getting the region running economically, and Clovis was... not exactly gently-inclined towards the Japanese people, after the reported murder of his favourite brother and sister.

It's noted in-series that this left all the breeding grounds for rebellion more or less untouched, but the rebellion was basically manageable, just perennially violent. Honestly, the Japanese suffered far more from the rebellions and their suppressions than the Britannians did, until Lelouch took the helm - pretty much precisely as Clovis was inclined towards. And the use of drugs allowed a lot of the people most dissatisfied with Britannia to be routed into a drug-fueled stupor (and funneling their meager economic assets back into Britannia) rather than filling out the ranks of a rebellion.

Cornelia was generally changing the policy (it was noted that if she ever found out about the Refrain plot, she'd throw a fit) when she came in, but such things take time, and the policy change created general vulnerabilities in Britannia's social control over Japan... right at the moment Zero was rising. They'd have been covered over once the policy change took hold, but when you've got, for instance, a general shithole uncontrolled ghetto, and no drug line to keep the places placid, right as a charismatic rebel leader is rising... Cornelia seemed to be aiming for 'pacify the damn place, then work more slowly and sustainably towards full integration', though she spent like half her career as Governor-General finding about some new craziness Clovis had pulled and wrangling it around to her own vision. The records are a bloody mess, Clovis did not leave plans in place to explain what was going on to a successor.

This seems significant.


Not deeply significant, but Suzaku's been doing some work towards keeping the ghettoes running and helping the Japanese that way (not just by serving Britannia - though a significant chunk of his paycheck heads into the ghettoes, because he's not doing much with it). On his off time he meets with community figures, tries to resolve incidents where he finds them... He's vaguely aware of Risei being slightly magically active, but he tends to meet the Kotomines because they're community leaders in the Tokyo ghetto - so he can throw them a heads up on some aspects of what's going on in the settlement, keep a pulse on what's going on in the ghetto himself, and contribute help where he can.

Well, that raises some questions seeming as how Archer also ended up in Red and Black.


It's not hereditary, it just looks awesome. :P

A new tale of Finland is to be born,
it grows, it rushes, it wins.


I see someone's caught the hints regarding Takara's mother.

I forget if you've specified Merlin's parentage, but this might be fairly funny if Lancer is Apple, and we are talking about the granddaughter of the entity, not the entity itself.


Well, Merlin is half-demon, yes. As far as anyone knows, he has no relationship to Satan, but things in that sector are pretty vague, in general. (The magi community really has no fuckin' clue whether God exists, let alone Satan. Everyone's still gotta take it on faith if at all)

Actually, Lancer is the closest being to such - she's the one who tempted Jesus in the desert. She was looking for a proper King for Britannia, though in the end, he turned it down and Eowyn had to take up the role. (You may recall Lancer noting that Lelouch shook off her lust power faster than anyone but 'Yesh'. It wasn't the most hostile interaction. It involved 'dammit, eat, you idiot, you're going to starve like that' and the like, in the end they agreed to disagree and parted ways)

There are reasons for an empire to not station occupying troops in their nation of origin. If for nothing else than connections to the locals makes it easier to defraud the military by corruption with the locals. I remember that the Romans liked to switch things up that way.

That said, if Britannia is playing up the differences between the regions, they might gain a similar effect from Hokkaido troops in Kyoto, Kanto troops in the southern islands, and Okinawa troops in the north of the main island, and that sort of thing. Segment the entertainment channels between the regions, and play them off each other. City versus country, Tokyo versus outlying regions, more occupied versus less occupied, suggest that Kyoto and Tokyo be blamed for the failings of the last emperor, blaming Genbu's area of Origin for Genbu's surrender...


That could actually be fairly viable, though Britannia's policy is more inclined to making people willing to serve. They generally keep them (and their families) reasonably close to home, and use the general rhetoric of 'you're protecting your homes and families, you're just doing so under new management'. 90% of the time, Honouraries are used for exactly that - primarily to reinforce the Britannians against invasion from the EU and China (which is considered possible enough to take a lot of measures to keep that defensive force as large as feasible). Honouraries seeing use in suppression/occupation operations are actually fairly rare. It's only really happened in two cases in the series (one being the first episode, with Clovis in 'extreme emergency' mode and scrabbling up whatever troops he can, and the other being the general service of Suzaku).

There's still the potential of corruption, of course, but not really any higher than any military force that's garrisoning near their home region (honestly, a bit lower, because they know they're on probation and have to perform better than a pure Britannian to earn a passing grade). In occupation operations, the probabilities rise quite a bit, which is a fair part of why they're not used in such except for emergency cases (as well as the large hit on morale - and thus troop effectiveness - that's involved in 'fighting your own').

Good or Gold?


Either is appropriate, though 'gold' was used intentionally. (Ie, golden, a perfect option)

Wasn't it a charging station? Gas station implies either translation, or that Gasoline's energy density was enough better than alternatives prior to Sakuradite based batteries have an effect on the language.


Mostly it implies that I let an Earth-ism slip in. Thanks for the catch, corrected.

Maybe Britannia is doing something wrong?


Partially. It's regional. Britannia's knights specialize in high-mobility tactics, but knightmares bog down horrifically in the sand. Meanwhile, the MEF developed sand panels (aka, hovercraft) and are capable of using high-mobility tactics in that terrain, while Britannia has one of its main arms limited in use. Outside desert terrain, Britannia's knightmares are still entirely serviceable, but that's part of why the MEF stationed their last bastion in the Rub' al Khali (the world's largest sand desert) to begin with.

They were still managing, because their tank and infantry arms are solid and Cornelia is very good, but they were at a rather severe disadvantage in this invasion. By the time of this battle, they codeveloped knightmare-viable sand panels with the MEF resistance members who helped their invasion/liberation along.

The final battle at Wabar was a pure curbstomp - they were able to use their knightmares to flit around the battlefield as they were born to do, and the MEFAF was caught completely by surprise. (The proliferation of the sand panels was unknown, the Zhayedan who'd developed those methods of tangling with the MEFAF and use of sand panels were being phased to second-line duty since Cornelia doesn't like making the conquered die for the conquerors, and Cornelia's own personal guard was supposedly stationed in Syria. The MEFAF thought they were launching a high-mobility assault on a thinner-than-it-should-be siege line, and got ambushed by faster, lighter knightmares and cut to pieces outside their fortifications. It was damn good opsec.)

I've been having some trouble coming up with a song for this likely Master. 'We Three Kings' on the one had, and the Elvis Great Balls of Fire song on the other.


Either is fairly appropriate.

I have a vague recollection, maybe from a class. Weren't those the guys that only touched living things in order to kill them, or am I confusing them with a different group of mid eastern priests from ancient history? Or maybe I'm just confused in general.


Hm. I've not heard specifics about such a group, but, at the least, it's not the magi.

Grail War.


That does seem likely.

The guy in the grail, I presume.

I'm also getting a vibe of Clifford, the big red dog, and IIRC, Emily Elizabeth from her and her dog.


Heh. Nah. It naturally grows 'large enough to hunt bears'. Caucasian ovcharka (his name is Setanta, as roughly a three-layered joke). But yes, it's her familiar.

Mao comes to mind.


Indeed it is Mao. He's been, of course, on the trail of CC. Fuyuki was the last place said lead was, and he's currently trying to figure out where the fuck to go from there.

I like the justification here for some of Cornelia's seemingly obnoxious behavior.


It seemed the most likely cause. She's 'cold and sharp' in public, but whenever it's just her and Euphie, she goofs off and dotes on her just as much as you'd expect of an older sister.

Probably Euphie is already in contact with Archer.


Yeah. I'll be rewinding a bit to show that with Ch 6's opening. (I skipped it for this chapter because the chapter was fuckhueg already)

Time for more Paradox Interactive games can explain away WSoD issues.

Well, this is Vickie times, and not EU III, but if the EU were being played in EU, they would would have conquered Russia because of the danger of Britannia getting it via Personal Union.


They tried (see: Napoleon's campaign). General Winter is a badass, and a Russia that doesn't want to be invaded is really damn hard to invade. They managed it in the Eurasian War because of a PR victory - they toned down the generally racist tendencies and came in in support of a revolution (which they'd helped kick off to begin with) that was already splitting the populace.

Well, if they can do it inside of two years, then they must have already done the staff work. So it is less a matter of telling the future than it is telling secret information, or merely information that an informed person could work out.


That, and the information isn't directly tied to the paradox preventing Counter Force activity.

Those guys. I don't like those guys.


A rather common sentiment, I've found.

Not friendly, hah.

How do I put this? Due to various real life issues, mid-September or so I was thinking about a certain aspect of the Mongols.

To some extent, they might still be extant to a degree. I did a paper in school that partly touched on how the Mongols took over China and formed the Yuan, literally original, dynasty. But case I've just put together for that just now is dubious, and mainly based on some of the mysticism. More on this in the china comment.

The mongols greatly valued the institutions of the embassy and the ambassador. They did much to promote these, and I dunno if they managed to help build lasting support and respect for those institutions.

Anyway, I wonder how different the institutions of international diplomacy are in geass world compared to our own. If they have formal hostages, that is a big difference, I think. Passports, Visas, consulates, embassies and ambassadors? I figure australia would have diplomatic relations with everyone, and a person might be able to get from one power to another by way of there. Perhaps Takara, Isabelle, and Sorin came that way? Does the EU have relations with Britannia? Do they have a consulate in Area Eleven? Does Switzerstralia? Does Britannia allow any official foreign presence in Japan?


Embassies and ambassadors are approximately as they are in our timeline, with diplomatic immunity and such. Hostages are an older practice, and they're only really practiced on the national level by monarchies anymore (who would a democratic nation that can ostensibly have anyone in the hot seat four years from now send?). Same with diplomatic marriages. (One of the last hostage exchanges, prior to Lelouch and Nunnally, was the last Japanese Emperor handing himself over to China to end the Pacific War, and Genbu Kururugi tried to do the most recent diplomatic marriage with Nunnally)

The EU does have relations with Britannia, though they're generally rather frosty, and can get quite theatrical sometimes. (Think 'Soviet Union storming out of the UN debate on the Korean War out of protest' theatrical, and probably semifrequent 'accidental' violations of one anothers' airspace and fishing rights and such)

Most nations had embassies in Japan, though after the invasion, China, the EU, and the MEF were the only ones to maintain them (partially to attend to 'sakuradite share' issues, and partially as a sort of taunt). Australia doesn't maintain a Japan-specific embassy, but they do, as noted, have relations with all major powers and a lot of minor ones.

Foreign presence is permitted, and even mildly armed (not enough to hold out a determined military incursion, but enough to prevent Benghazi-like problems). That said, it must be registered, and Sorin's a 'name' as mercenaries go, so his presence would be cause for concern if anyone found out.

In terms of entry, Australia isn't really the best route. Rather... it is, but because it's such a good route for sneaking things in, it's heavily watched, and any non-Australians who come in that way are given a few extra once-overs. If you're on the level, or if you can make yourself look on the level, it's more convenient to just come in directly from the EU - it's permitted, and an eye will be kept on you, but you're getting that anyway, and if you come in through Australia, you look like you have something to hide right from the outset, and blow time to do it.

Sorin and Isabelle took a slightly zany route - they went to the Britannian mainland, slapped up mindfuck spells to look like a Britannian businessman plus wife, and then popped into Japan (as 'Britannians', they minimize their attention from the Britannian security services - they're actually still looking for where his last identity disappeared to, on the mainland).

Takara, for her part, just flew in straight from Italy - she's young enough to avoid most attention, and 'half-Japanese EU citizen seeking her roots' is an easy, pre-made story that leaves her getting attention, but fairly cursory. Since she was known to be in Fuyuki during the 'incident', though, Britannian security has currently lost track of her and presumes her to be dead. More than most citizens of Fuyuki, she's considered a 'possible' agent provocateur, but it's still not a very high level of concern (given her age and seeming death), though it'll jump up a fair bit if they realize she's A: alive, and B: has jumped tracking.

There's also the hobo route - Sakhalin and hop a fishing boat.

Now this is apparently future history.


Indeed. It's not so much 'future history' that they're not able to dick with (I mean, Archer was allowed to show up at all in the canonical Fifth War). It's a much more specific paradox.

I've studied China a very small amount, enough to come up with a bunch of obnoxious questions about dynastic succession if I put in the effort. At the moment my main feeling is that the overall description seems very plausible. Yes, China has run through a bunch of iterations of Bureaucracy, but they have run into some very similar problems. Anyway, unless there are some very good reformers, I'm going to say 'fairly typical for late stage in a dynasty' and call it even.


I'm thinking it's most likely the Qing dynasty still running (extending about 50 years longer than our world). I'm not extensively familiar with Chinese history, but from what I can determine, the state of Europe didn't intervene heavily in China, so the butterfly took a while to travel that far. But the Qing dynasty fell, in significant part, because of the intervention of colonialist European powers. In particular, an alliance of colonialist European powers, including the UK and US. Britannia would be slightly less inclined to go along with the EU's program there, and would be entirely willing to prop up other nations in Eurasia to cockblock the EU's growth.

That said, as I noted, my familiarity with Chinese history is low, so it's best to handwave that one off.

I dunno, quite a few of the Chinese emperors have been effectively polygamous, and have put relatives in high positions, and still run into bunches of problems. I'm going to call this a handwave, and accept it.


108 wives polygamous? But yeah, mostly a handwave.

Maybe Archer can figure it out now?


Somewhat. Though the phrasing was 'seem likely to' - because it was a guess, it was able to slip through. Archer is taking note of the things he's being fed, and because of the 'whoo, you heard', he can tell that Zero is... somehow... connected to whatever it is that the First wants to tell him. So he knows 'keep an eye on it', for now.

I see much truth here in general.


Indeed.

Don't forget Antarctica.


No people, no evil.

a) Gundam folks would be good at making mecha pretty enough to forget everything else.
b) Slash-Hakens or however that is spelled are neat.
c) the landspinner or whatever the spur with wheels is makes my inner engineer recoil slightly less.


Interesting note, along my 'Britannia is totally Canada' mental track?

The landspinner is remarkably similar to Heavy Gear's secondary movement system (basically, tank treads integrated into the feet), and knightmares are around the same size as gears, with a similar 'back module' (in gears it's the engine, in knightmares, the cockpit).

Heavy Gear was developed by Dream Pod 9 - a Canadian company based in Montreal. (I've privately nicknamed the knightmare development group under the Ashford Foundation 'Dream Pod 9', obviously)

This modern druidism, or the original version which was human sacrificey enough that the Romans of the time couldn't coopt it?


Well, not the New Age reconstructionist type, but if we assume the sacrifice happened (considering the only sources are the notoriously propagandistic Romans, it's hard to tell, though it's certainly possible), they would have figured out that the sacrifice (a method of divination) didn't work at some point.

This isn't Archer is it?


Ah, no. When the Command Seals popped up, they scrounged up an instructor for her in 'bare bone magecraft' to prepare her for the Holy Grail War - he was supposed to get a cut of the Grail, but he absolutely freaked when he realized he was instructing someone with a geass connection.

Archer has been providing some instruction since he was summoned, but his magical properties border on the Lovecraftian, so he's not exactly the best teacher.

Hmm. Russia is perhaps due to fall by the time Charles and Marianne try to pull that off. Which leaves seven of nine under Britannian rule.


After the invasion of the EU and the Ragnarok plan came together, it was eight of eight (Lelouch blew up the Kazakhstan elevator, and Britannia captured the Russian and African elevators, and had a fair opportunity at getting hold of the London elevator in the moments before they kicked it off, considering the war that was on).

Right now, it's six of nine - Hampshire, Caribbean, Antarctica, Kaminejima, Iran (newly), and Kazakhstan (territorially it's in the Chinese Federation, but it's directly under the administration of the Geass Directorate, and is the center of their headquarters).

I'm more inclined to think it a matter of similar revolutions having similar results, rather than merely being a matter of example or implementation. I remember reading as a youngster a book by a Crane Brinton called something like Anatomy of a Revolution.


Yeah - and since the only way the EU had seen to work was the French, they did it similarly.

They have to handle it a certain amount. Applying police to a population is the big method for hunting down organizations raising fighters from them, and operating fighters within them.


Indeed. Not as extensive as they should be (Clovis was, as noted, operating on more of a 'let them come, and beat their swords into plowshares' paradigm), but Cornelia's trying to get them up where they should be.

Fanaticism and skill are different things, and some Japanese patriots might be biding their time. Kids can be useful fanatics for sheer lack of experience, but that also tends to make them less useful. People sometimes use child soldiers because their life experience prevents them from recognizing losing situations, flawed propaganda, or from being able to get out and away.


Indeed. If it comes down to enthusiasm, Japan has it covered. Seriously, there's a crop of rebels damn near everywhere you look.

It's just that having managed training is clearly rarer.

Also, the First and Second pacific are two losses in a row, which might well be extremely demoralizing. One of the big things with the Emperor of Japan is the whole direct male descent going back umpteen years. (The joke is that they have a magic y chromosome.) That sort of loyalist might have given up when there was no son to succeed the old Tenno. Suppose one knew that Lelouch had survived, and wanted to set him up with a daughter or other close female relative, or some other such scheme.

Also, there are potential regional differences. Tokyo is deep in central government control, and heavily urban. It is actually fairly difficult to run a covert movement of that sort out of urban areas. (Despite what some communists claim about it being THE way to do such things.) Basically, there are too many people around to terrify and control into keeping the secret, and too many people moving around.

Villages out in the country apparently work much better. This might especially be the case if there are enough ninjas floating around between the wars to set up and hide a bunch of hidden villages.


It is certainly worth noting that the more proficient rebel groups we've seen are based out in rural areas, with private strongholds. For one thing, it allows them to train extensively without having to worry about the local populace too much. (On the topic, it's worth noting that the other rural group we saw, Samurai Blood, was equipped with very WW2ey gear and uniforms)

The urban groups (such as the Kouzuki group the Black Knights started as) are more of a 'social club that has a vague idea how to use military equipment'. The Kouzuki group is the best of the lot, and we've gone over their deficiencies often enough. The Yamato Alliance morale-cracked and lost a potentially winnable battle because of it.

The resistance groups are generally known to operate in the ghettoes, and every so often a recruiter/demagogue walks around with pretty words, but so far the 'listening' has been fairly low, since most of the groups are straight terrorists. The JLF has a stronger reputation, because they're an honest military, and don't gun for civilians. (The hoteljack was a loss of control over subordinate officers, not official policy, but it's fairly likely that that, outright, killed them)

From what I've seen in the first season, I have doubts that the Britannians killed really huge amounts of the population in the invasion and early stages of the occupation. I'm just not seeing the level of routine cruelty and slaughter for that.


Yeah. Massacres are rare. The discipline of the troops is such that they'll do it instantly if ordered, but it's not often done. Shinjuku in the first few episodes was pretty much outright Clovis having a psychotic break, and he tried to conceal it from the mainland. And Saitama as you noted below, was explicitly an attempt to mimic the conditions of Shinjuku to draw out Zero's theatrical side.

On the other hand, I have also doubts that they've put a sensible amount of effort into Eleven oriented education and police work.

(Note that how the education system that is set up can also be fairly important for securing a conquest.)


It seems likely that they haven't. Honestly, we know so little about the conditions in the ghettoes. We have a fairly detailed look at most levels of Britannian society, but the Japanese, we almost never see except when they're actively rebelling.

But considering there's shanty towns and battle rubble out there, to the point of people living in tents, it seems... fairly likely that policing and education aren't really what they should be down there.

Comment about the bit where Lelouch meets his father after his mother's death: Charles must be a big man to

scare a kid that way.


Interesting part is, Charles was probably happy to hear that. Lelouch is his favourite - Chuck is a big fat liar.

Arthur is a funny name for a cat, considering Aturia.


I remember there was a 'Magical Girl Nunnally' fic where he actually was King Arthur (and her animal advisor, naturally).

Episode fourteen or so makes me want to rethink some of what I've said about Shirley and guns. On the one hand, I rather tools be used properly and skillfully. On the other, some of those shots I am unsure about wishing properly lethal. On the gripping hand, that plotline is AU by now, IIRC.


Yeah. It was dependent on her father being in Narita. But, well, it was General Bartley Aspirius (the big round guy) that sent them out to Narita, and Lancer eviscerated him (they are seriously cutting down the C-list villains fast). Doctor Fennette got sent out to Kazakhstan instead.

The picture of young Kallen in the first ending is heartbreaking. Watching that ending for the first time, with the knowledge I had of the series... Ouch.


Yeah, seeing any of the cast happy as children, when you know where the series takes 'em...

I like that Lelouch is using non-mindcontrol methods in this fic.


It's rather fun to see how he can work with more 'conventional' methods, and different tools.

Lesse, you had a comment about how European knight fighting methods often integrated grappling techniques? I had some thoughts about having read about Samurai and ancient Greek grappling. Also, as far as unarmed combat goes, armor can block strikes and cause throws to vary. Grappling and joint techniques work around the skeleton and will still be useful on enemies with and without armor. One can only train against so many variations of armor, so if a wide variety is possible, train techniques that can be used without it mattering so much.


There is a vast amount of that, yes. The most complete sample of medieval martial methods (the Flos Duellatorum) has grappling as its basis and starting point. 90% of what they cover are various grappling methods - joint locks, throws, and the like. It says 'use strikes', but it didn't focus on them much.

Mind you, strikes can work against armour. Similar broad concept as a mace - it doesn't really lose much of its power by being slammed into armour. Though you'd want to be careful to A: punch properly, and B: ideally wear gloves, because you're slamming your hand into a steel plate here.

Silly thought about a way to fill in between the lines in Renya. Renya might be a direct male line descendent of the Japanese Imperial throne. Claire might end up the next Empress of Britannia. Supposing they end up paired together, perhaps Lelouch has a legitimate claim on the throne of Japan.


Heh. That was part of Kaguya's gambit - she's not royal, but she was the closest thing to it, in Japan.

As is the question, if Elevens are Japanese, what are Fifty-ones?


Currently, nonexistent. Eventually... aliens? Britannia only just finished pacifying Area 18 when Cornelia left to take over Japan. (Area 18 appears to equal 'the entire Middle East'. It's a little hard to tell exactly what the criteria are, to be considered an 'Area')

Milly's Guts spell reminds me of SRW.


That... might be exactly what she was trying to do. SRW is a Bandai property.

I've found threads saved for Art of Love; Art of Death through chapter four, and The Shadow on the Other Side of the Mirror through chapter four. Looks like the Nanoha/X-Com and the WWII Grail war got eaten entirely.


Mm. I'm going to have to restart more threads when the activity kicks up again. Thanks.
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby OSMQEP » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:51 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:How so?

If you mean the general 'low military quality of the resistance pre-Zero', then yeah. They really aren't that good. I don't know whether it was intended, but it generally fits, and it allows me to note the 'horrendously unwise' things they do without having to pretend it's competence.

(They really did learn their tradecraft from spy movies. Where else would they find instruction without pre-invasion or foreign contacts?)


Where something odd or stupid happens in canon, whether by the proto-Black Knights or the below discussed Clovis administration issues, it is presented in this story in terms that make it clear that more thought has been put into it.

Or Nagata's comment about giving Kallen some advice on keeping secrets better. As an aside, I'm finding I like Nagata.

The internal commentary on Clovis' speech to Lelouch before he starts begging for his life is nice, and I think similar. Cornelia's internal comments about her own behavior remind of of the same thing.

Anyway, I don't have it explained really coherently, but I hope I've given a better idea.

Pale Wolf wrote:Nero, in the Nasuverse.

Maybe she wore a dark wig for her station, though. She certainly crossdressed to fit in to begin with.


I think I already knew this about Nasuverse.
Pale Wolf wrote:... I could actually see him singing that.


I had to try and fit songs to people after Zero/I am a Britannian came to me.

Some were a struggle, and some were easy. I'm a huge fan of the Battle Hymn, so I stood a good chance of using it. I hated changing it to fit Gil, but it seemed to fit so well, and I thought I needed the match.

Both Sabers are Men of Harlech from Zulu, with Welshmen/Britannians as appropriate. (I tend to associate Saber with Men of Harlech, because Welsh.)

I didn't find a copy on youtube before posting, but I think 101st Airborne song fits Darlton a little, and Blood on the Risers works okay for Gottwald.

For Rider, I did three songs because I was too conflicted to narrow it down to one.

Pale Wolf wrote:It's noted in-series that this left all the breeding grounds for rebellion more or less untouched, but the rebellion was basically manageable, just perennially violent. Honestly, the Japanese suffered far more from the rebellions and their suppressions than the Britannians did, until Lelouch took the helm - pretty much precisely as Clovis was inclined towards. And the use of drugs allowed a lot of the people most dissatisfied with Britannia to be routed into a drug-fueled stupor (and funneling their meager economic assets back into Britannia) rather than filling out the ranks of a rebellion.


This actually fits with some of what I've been thinking. Nine years from taking Japan to Ragnarok is not that long, considering. Consider that Charles may have intended to let Clovis do a shoddy job, in the theory it wouldn't matter in the long term.

Clovis was maybe seventeen, and he had recently lost loved ones. A career more in line with careful and systemic conquest would've probably involved more experience before being dumped in that position.

Also, finding out Clovis' part in Refrain makes me wish a worse death on him. I'm fairly rabid on the issue.

Pale Wolf wrote:Not deeply significant, but Suzaku's been doing some work towards keeping the ghettoes running and helping the Japanese that way (not just by serving Britannia - though a significant chunk of his paycheck heads into the ghettoes, because he's not doing much with it). On his off time he meets with community figures, tries to resolve incidents where he finds them... He's vaguely aware of Risei being slightly magically active, but he tends to meet the Kotomines because they're community leaders in the Tokyo ghetto - so he can throw them a heads up on some aspects of what's going on in the settlement, keep a pulse on what's going on in the ghetto himself, and contribute help where he can.


I liked the hint that he was active, as it feels fairly empty with him not in the Lancelot now that I know how much he was around in R1.

Pale Wolf wrote:I see someone's caught the hints regarding Takara's mother.


We'd discussed bits and pieces, and I'd more or less taken it as confirmed that she was an Edelfelt master in that War. It is a song I like, about soldier's retaking their homeland. (IIRC, they were trained by Germans during WWI.)

Of course, maybe what you are saying is that Finland is a recent addition to the EU, and her mom is involved with an independence movement there.

Pale Wolf wrote:Partially. It's regional. Britannia's knights specialize in high-mobility tactics, but knightmares bog down horrifically in the sand. Meanwhile, the MEF developed sand panels (aka, hovercraft) and are capable of using high-mobility tactics in that terrain, while Britannia has one of its main arms limited in use. Outside desert terrain, Britannia's knightmares are still entirely serviceable, but that's part of why the MEF stationed their last bastion in the Rub' al Khali (the world's largest sand desert) to begin with.


I've heard that Arabs are supposed to have some cultural tendencies that are supposed to make fairly wretched armies, such that a high grade professional army should be able to beat them. Of course, now that I think about it, Turks and Janissaries and such.
Pale Wolf wrote:Hm. I've not heard specifics about such a group, but, at the least, it's not the magi.


I know the guy I heard about Alexander's desire for friendship from also went on quite a bit about the followers of Ahura-Mazda. I vaguely recall maybe seeing something about what I mentioned in the materials for that course.

Pale Wolf wrote:Yeah. I'll be rewinding a bit to show that with Ch 6's opening. (I skipped it for this chapter because the chapter was fuckhueg already


And maybe this will explain some of what happened with Suzaku.
Pale Wolf wrote:They tried (see: Napoleon's campaign). General Winter is a badass, and a Russia that doesn't want to be invaded is really damn hard to invade. They managed it in the Eurasian War because of a PR victory - they toned down the generally racist tendencies and came in in support of a revolution (which they'd helped kick off to begin with) that was already splitting the populace.


I was talking about the Eurasian war. I think it would have been in the time frame of Vickie, not Heart of Iron.
Pale Wolf wrote:A rather common sentiment, I've found.


I vaguely recall that Canada is far away from the American Southwest and the United Mexican States, whose flag is a references to the founding myth of one of the members of the Aztec Triple Alliance. :)

Pale Wolf wrote:Foreign presence is permitted, and even mildly armed (not enough to hold out a determined military incursion, but enough to prevent Benghazi-like problems). That said, it must be registered, and Sorin's a 'name' as mercenaries go, so his presence would be cause for concern if anyone found out.


My understanding is that the general rule in our world is that the host nation is trusted for the bulk of the security. When the host is unable to provide it, the embassy is pulled unless there is a /very/ compelling for keeping it there. A stable nation with a trustworthy police and military will be able to secure a foreign embassy. If something happens to an embassy they host, at some level they made it happen, and can be held responsible for it. (This is where I should link to an appropriate 'Mongol Style' Gangnam Style parody, if I knew of one.)

The host nation will always have more people, and be able to take out the embassy's people. I think the guards are generally sized for being able to secure the sensitive things long enough to destroy them.

I have more to say on this topic, but I haven't words I want to use, and it is the only thing left holding things up. I know what I want to know about the story on this topic.

Pale Wolf wrote:I'm thinking it's most likely the Qing dynasty still running (extending about 50 years longer than our world). I'm not extensively familiar with Chinese history, but from what I can determine, the state of Europe didn't intervene heavily in China, so the butterfly took a while to travel that far. But the Qing dynasty fell, in significant part, because of the intervention of colonialist European powers. In particular, an alliance of colonialist European powers, including the UK and US. Britannia would be slightly less inclined to go along with the EU's program there, and would be entirely willing to prop up other nations in Eurasia to cockblock the EU's growth.

That said, as I noted, my familiarity with Chinese history is low, so it's best to handwave that one off.


Assuming I'm not confused, because I'm working off memory, and not even checking, say, wikipedia.

Well, like I said, the Mongol polity created by our good friend, Ghenghis Khan, was involved in China. A splinter faction, I think under Ogedai, I may be misremembering, set up the Yuan dynasty. They were originally thinking of just killing everyone and using China for grazing, but they were convinced that there was more money in ruling. The Mongols were raiding in Europe, and if a different group of leaders died in the fighting there, maybe it could be argued that the Yuan might've gone down a different path.

The rulers of the Qing, were a bunch known as the Jurchen/Jurched, and later the Manchu, who were originally tribesmen, maybe related to the Mongols, living in what is now China on the border of Korea. At the time, it was on the border of Ming, IIRC, China. Ming China went into failure mode, was weak, and the Jurchen took over. I forget if there was another dynasty in between Yuan and Ming.

During those three or four dynasties, the Jesuits at one point very nearly were in a position to make China Catholic before the Pope stopped them.

One thing about the Qing, is that they were an alien regime, and didn't let the natives forget. IIRC, they had certain legal requirements for grooming and maybe for clothing for those subjects. A better China scholar than I might be able to tell from the names whether cast members from China were Han or Manchu, and if garb and dress matched. (It is possible that Sunrise might not have done the most realistic world building. It is possible that CLAMP's artwork might be ahistoric. I am shocked, shocked to find gambling in Rick's Casino. :) ) If Qing dynasty, the CLAMP style Bishie with the straight sword might well be a Manchu Bannerman, and the mentioned radical reforms could have changed such things anyway.

I think Qing may have been having the early signs of failure mode in the nineteenth century. So they could have limped on till now, they could have Butterflyed into an earlier death and replacement when the EU wasn't in place to intervene, the butterflies could have done something else entirely.

For the past two thousand years or so, the Chinese dynasties have been building civil services systems along similar lines. (I think Qin was c 200 BC, +- 200 years potential vagueness of memory. Qin followed Zhou after a period of chaos. I forget if Zhou had a civil service, they didn't have the central government of the later dynasties. Qin had a merit based civil service that is widely hated in the traditional history. The Han may have started by copying the Qin, or not, but their system brought in the Confucian scholars. The systems since have had some flavor of Confucian in the Civil Service. Neglecting the ChiComs, though they can be viewed as functionally similar to the more corrupt versions, where what is entirely an aristocracy disguises itself as a civil service.) Anyway, this makes a lot of the failure modes fairly similar, so all those late stage dynasties might look the same to me.

Handwave Approved.

Pale Wolf wrote:No people, no evil.


Leopard Seals? Elder Things? Occult Expeditions? Purely Scientific Military Outposts? I know Adam from Eva isn't there because no crossovers.

Pale Wolf wrote:Well, not the New Age reconstructionist type, but if we assume the sacrifice happened (considering the only sources are the notoriously propagandistic Romans, it's hard to tell, though it's certainly possible), they would have figured out that the sacrifice (a method of divination) didn't work at some point.


I suspect that the Romans distorted an earlier version of their chief pantheon to coopt the greek one. We know they tried to do the same thing with the Vanir/Aesir pantheon. I figure them seeming to be stuck on proscription, rather than yet another round of propagandistic syncraticism, might be fairly diagnostic.

Which brings up the question, supposing in line with your other assumptions, that the older forms of Aesir worship are extant, how does that fit into the apparent internal peace in Europe. I know enough to have difficulty seeing them as restful neighbors. Are they mostly directed externally? Are we positing a civilizing handwave? Is their influence to blame for some of the apparent disregard for human life in Akito? (Or are they no longer extant without without the conversion that happened our timeline?)

If the cult of Odin is still around, does this mean Drakaverse rules for the use of the word od to describe internal energy that Magus manipulate?

If the cult of Odin is still around, what about Berserkers? (The vocation not the Servant class.)

Pale Wolf wrote:Yeah. Massacres are rare. The discipline of the troops is such that they'll do it instantly if ordered, but it's not often done. Shinjuku in the first few episodes was pretty much outright Clovis having a psychotic break, and he tried to conceal it from the mainland. And Saitama as you noted below, was explicitly an attempt to mimic the conditions of Shinjuku to draw out Zero's theatrical side.


Discipline is one thing and appetite for recreational cruelty is another. Using an armed force for massacres can harm discipline, and it can build a taste for recreational cruelty. I saw Britannian civilians bullying Japanese, which might be expected. A place where people can't fight back attracts bullies. I didn't see the signs of Britannian soldiers killing and torturing Japanese for fun in their spare time that I might expect from other circumstances. We seem to be on the same page here.


I liked the Japanese VA for Lelouch. I'm going with that for my head canon. I also like the odd sounding 'Yes, My Lord.' from the sub.

I think I remember something about the SIS being a reskinned OSI, from Geass.

I think you said the three major shock infantry powers are Britannia, Australia, and the EU?

I've been thinking about Ragnarok, especially with Nasu elements involved. A collective mind across humanity must be alien to and unpredictable by any human mind before creation. If it could decide anything, it might decide to reverse the process. So, Ragnarok might've been self healing, but Lelouch couldn't bet on that, so he had to act.

Sumeragi brings to mind the Sumeragi family from the CLAMP properties Tokyo Babylon and X.

I've been thinking about Japanese refugees training other refugees for going back and resisting Britannia. Some of this happened with Takara, but I'm wondering if she might have had formal military training.

I'm also wondering if Takara's parents might have wished for the end of Prosperity Sphere cognate in their Grail War.

I've harvested the spacebattles threads for relevant details, and I think I'm full of enthusiasm, and material for that project. (I'm fairly certain, also, about Caster.) I've also noticed, from the other guy decrypting Caster's master, that I've been trying to do so with a different spelling for Brittania.

The Wise Up on Varis from when you reposted this thread, IIRC, is still the copper based thermite that must be ferromagnetic version that I had too much to say on in the old thread.

Question Time:

The pattern of fleeing suggests that Russia might have had a lot of Mages before the Eurasian war.

If the European revolutions were similar to the French Revolution, did they also have the focus on Rationalism? Might the EU tend to disbelieve in things like Geass significantly more than Australia, Britannia and the Chinese Federation?

Aerospace technology? Do all the powers have com sats? High speed commercial passenger airlines?

Might Earthquake bombs, like the Tallboy and Grand Slam, been skipped over in development, or otherwise never fielded?

There were some ugly incidents or plans involving the Imperial Japanese and mass suicide, assisted or otherwise during and after WWII. Were there any cognates with the First and Second Pacific Wars?
-Real Life has eaten my brain, but I shall return.
OSMQEP
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 65
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:08 am

Where something odd or stupid happens in canon, whether by the proto-Black Knights or the below discussed Clovis administration issues, it is presented in this story in terms that make it clear that more thought has been put into it.

Or Nagata's comment about giving Kallen some advice on keeping secrets better. As an aside, I'm finding I like Nagata.

The internal commentary on Clovis' speech to Lelouch before he starts begging for his life is nice, and I think similar. Cornelia's internal comments about her own behavior remind of of the same thing.

Anyway, I don't have it explained really coherently, but I hope I've given a better idea.


Ah, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, when something doesn't make sense, I try to comprehend it. And since it didn't make sense to me, I try to do a viewpoint that can explain it.

I had to try and fit songs to people after Zero/I am a Britannian came to me.


Heheheheh. I see.

This actually fits with some of what I've been thinking. Nine years from taking Japan to Ragnarok is not that long, considering. Consider that Charles may have intended to let Clovis do a shoddy job, in the theory it wouldn't matter in the long term.

Clovis was maybe seventeen, and he had recently lost loved ones. A career more in line with careful and systemic conquest would've probably involved more experience before being dumped in that position.

Also, finding out Clovis' part in Refrain makes me wish a worse death on him. I'm fairly rabid on the issue.


It's not officially stated outright whether or not he was behind Refrain. But government officials were involved, considering it useful for pacification of the Elevens, and it fits in with what we know of him.

Strictly speaking, Clovis didn't actually do that bad a job. He accomplished his objectives. It's just that his objective was 'integration into Britannia with fastest speed', rather than 'integration with the lowest possible damage to the Japanese'. So his job was mostly bad in the moral sense, rather than the efficacy sense.

I liked the hint that he was active, as it feels fairly empty with him not in the Lancelot now that I know how much he was around in R1.


Yeah, Suzaku's around - he actually has a big break coming up in a while. His role is definitely smaller in this one, but he's still angling towards his objectives, though unless he gets a big break, it's a loooooong road.

We'd discussed bits and pieces, and I'd more or less taken it as confirmed that she was an Edelfelt master in that War. It is a song I like, about soldier's retaking their homeland. (IIRC, they were trained by Germans during WWI.)

Of course, maybe what you are saying is that Finland is a recent addition to the EU, and her mom is involved with an independence movement there.


Nah, just that she was an Edelfelt in the Third. And no, she didn't head back to Finland. She's... not exactly on speaking terms with her family (the Tohsaka and Edelfelt get along hilariously badly thanks to the fallout from the Third), and is currently living in the Tohsaka 'main estate' in Milan.

I've heard that Arabs are supposed to have some cultural tendencies that are supposed to make fairly wretched armies, such that a high grade professional army should be able to beat them. Of course, now that I think about it, Turks and Janissaries and such.


They're fairly competent. (Let's not forget, the fuckers outdid Alexander in 'conquest') They're not a rising star anymore, but they were the first of the four superpowers, and not only are they fairly proficient (though not a world-conquering force anymore), but Britannia was hitting them at the far end of a downright ugly logistical trail (seriously, take a look at that map - the closest significant Britannian holding to the MEF is Japan).

I know the guy I heard about Alexander's desire for friendship from also went on quite a bit about the followers of Ahura-Mazda. I vaguely recall maybe seeing something about what I mentioned in the materials for that course.


I know that Zoroastrians had... interesting... methods of corpse disposal, which may be what you're thinking of. (Think Tibetan sky burials)

And maybe this will explain some of what happened with Suzaku.


Well, not the same scene (the Euphie/Rider events are in Fuyuki, Suzaku's down in Tokyo), at least.

I was talking about the Eurasian war. I think it would have been in the time frame of Vickie, not Heart of Iron.


Ah, yes. That's what I mean - they did try, earlier. The Eurasian War was the time they succeeded.

I vaguely recall that Canada is far away from the American Southwest and the United Mexican States, whose flag is a references to the founding myth of one of the members of the Aztec Triple Alliance.


Heh, so it is.

My understanding is that the general rule in our world is that the host nation is trusted for the bulk of the security. When the host is unable to provide it, the embassy is pulled unless there is a /very/ compelling for keeping it there. A stable nation with a trustworthy police and military will be able to secure a foreign embassy. If something happens to an embassy they host, at some level they made it happen, and can be held responsible for it.


I'd agree with that, though the Chinese embassy in Code Geass had some fairly reasonable security. Too light to withstand anything one would call 'military', but well up to holding off protestors and terrorists. (Frankly, the place is almost a castle)

I'd say the bulk of the security is provided by Britannia, but the embassy is permitted its own basic guard and does most of the actual day-to-day work work - though in any severe situation (where 'severe' is defined as 'JLF or Black Knights' level rebels, not Benghazi), it's dependent on the host nation, and is certainly not up to fending off anything but the most lackadaisical attack from the host nation.

It is possible that Sunrise might not have done the most realistic world building. It is possible that CLAMP's artwork might be ahistoric. I am shocked, shocked to find gambling in Rick's Casino.


Heaven forbid! (Yeah, Chinese history, I do not know well enough to even pretend to go into detail)

I think Qing may have been having the early signs of failure mode in the nineteenth century. So they could have limped on till now, they could have Butterflyed into an earlier death and replacement when the EU wasn't in place to intervene, the butterflies could have done something else entirely.


My handwave has 'em as limping on another fifty years (which seems fair, since foreign intervention from the Anglosphere was a factor in their demise, and this timeline has the Anglosphere supporting them instead), though they've undergone fairly noticeable changes already, and are pretty much at the end of the system's lifespan as it is.

Leopard Seals? Elder Things? Occult Expeditions? Purely Scientific Military Outposts? I know Adam from Eva isn't there because no crossovers.


Expeditions and outposts are scattered, yeah. Population is, as one may expect of Antarctica, somewhat sparse.

Which brings up the question, supposing in line with your other assumptions, that the older forms of Aesir worship are extant, how does that fit into the apparent internal peace in Europe. I know enough to have difficulty seeing them as restful neighbors. Are they mostly directed externally? Are we positing a civilizing handwave? Is their influence to blame for some of the apparent disregard for human life in Akito? (Or are they no longer extant without without the conversion that happened our timeline?)

If the cult of Odin is still around, does this mean Drakaverse rules for the use of the word od to describe internal energy that Magus manipulate?

If the cult of Odin is still around, what about Berserkers? (The vocation not the Servant class.)


Drakaverse rules, yes. The older Germanic faiths are still extant, though they're fairly small, and mostly centralized in Germanic regions. The dominant EU religion is Zalmoxism. But yes, followers of the Aesir are... to some extent, the Sikhs of the EU. Very active military volunteers.

Berserkers, by the strictest definition, are largely consigned to the realms of mythology. Even if it were a sanctioned practice, nobody really knows how they may have done it. The term does get tossed around as a sign of respect, though, and some aces put 'bear' decals on whatever they're riding.

Discipline is one thing and appetite for recreational cruelty is another. Using an armed force for massacres can harm discipline, and it can build a taste for recreational cruelty. I saw Britannian civilians bullying Japanese, which might be expected. A place where people can't fight back attracts bullies. I didn't see the signs of Britannian soldiers killing and torturing Japanese for fun in their spare time that I might expect from other circumstances. We seem to be on the same page here.


Yeah, that seems about right.

I liked the Japanese VA for Lelouch. I'm going with that for my head canon.


Yeah, the American VA turned in a serviceable performance... it's just that he cannot possibly match up to the Japanese one's stellar job.

I think I remember something about the SIS being a reskinned OSI, from Geass.


Not strictly OSI. The closest comparison appears to actually be the SS or the Praetorian Guard - the SIS has been noted to recieve orders directly from the Emperor, so I think they're not Britannia's primary intelligence arm, but are a private one under command of the Emperor.

I think you said the three major shock infantry powers are Britannia, Australia, and the EU?


To an extent - none of the superpowers are strictly considered 'an infantry power', because, quite honestly... each of them has at least one of the noteworthy infantry nations under their umbrella, so technically they're all infantry powers (or rather, contain an infantry power). But those three are more likely to have highly capable troops.

The Chinese are broadly equal in training to their closest equivalent from other nations, but they're a bit behind the curve, technologically. Numerically speaking, though, China actually makes more use of infantry - less because their infantry is that good than because they use their infantry in places where other nations would really rather use something else. Because it's more affordable, and China's pretty consistently operating on a shoestring budget. (China also has oddball wonder-weapons floating around from the Pacific War - they had to crash-train their designers, so they worked with Britannian advisors on some pretty ridiculous stuff to stretch their skills before working on more 'actually militarily useful' projects, once they actually learned how)

All the powers have broadly varying qualities of troops, including Australia. Though Australia has crafted a bit of a reputation for itself, because it only actually sells the services of the crack troops - the part-timers and less ace units stay on home defence, and nobody's quite sure how good they are because all they ever see of Australian soldiery is the hardcore bastards they hire.

Basically, every nation has crack troops they can throw at something, and other units that may be more likely to fold under pressure. Australia is unique in that if they're on the battlefield, the only ones you'll ever see are the crack troops.

I've been thinking about Ragnarok, especially with Nasu elements involved. A collective mind across humanity must be alien to and unpredictable by any human mind before creation. If it could decide anything, it might decide to reverse the process. So, Ragnarok might've been self healing, but Lelouch couldn't bet on that, so he had to act.


I don't think it can decide, strictly. In Nasuverse, Alaya doesn't really seem to do much other than make sure humanity continues to exist - and in War of Kings, that was something Lelouch made it do. It might be that its nature as a collective means it can't agree on anything much, unless the decision is forced upon it - see: Ragnarok, Lelouch.

I've been thinking about Japanese refugees training other refugees for going back and resisting Britannia. Some of this happened with Takara, but I'm wondering if she might have had formal military training.


Takara hasn't had formal military training, but the Tohsaka traditionally practice martial arts alongside magecraft, and while Takara is mediocre at the magecraft side...

Hm. Probably rare at the best. There is a Japanese diaspora, but I think all the ones who actually knew how to violence stayed in Japan to do it. The groups you'll find in other nations will mostly be businessmen, immigrants, that sort of thing. They also don't appear to have much centralization - there's a Japanese 'government in exile' ramping up to take back Japan, but it's pretty much a Chinese pawn, and their entire military force was Chinese (they may have been ethnically Japanese, though it's impossible to tell, but they were at least part of China's military... while carrying Japanese flags... that whole incident was odd).

I'm also wondering if Takara's parents might have wished for the end of Prosperity Sphere cognate in their Grail War.


They didn't strictly wish for it, though it would have been of interest. There really wasn't any wish that happened in the Third Grail War - some fucker broke the Lesser Grail, according to canon, so the Grail was simply unable to form at all. The Third was kiiiinda crazy ('landmines in the streets' is canonical). (Read Last Crusade for my take on it, as it gets written ;) )

'course, considering that Angra Mainyu got registered into the Grail for the Third... well, probably a good thing the Grail was broken.

The pattern of fleeing suggests that Russia might have had a lot of Mages before the Eurasian war.


I wouldn't say they had any more percentage-wise, but, being a large country, they certainly had a noteworthy population of them. Honestly, magi mostly ignore the modern world where they can. They don't really care about the EU one way or the other, and are low enough in number that their movements are fairly hard to notice. (And tend to have 'hypnosis' as the most bare-standard piece of magecraft, so they can avoid being randomly victimized by most policies, and skedaddle out fairly easily if they're being non-randomly targeted)

If the European revolutions were similar to the French Revolution, did they also have the focus on Rationalism? Might the EU tend to disbelieve in things like Geass significantly more than Australia, Britannia and the Chinese Federation?


Not significantly more than. Rationalism is very widespread, and generally, nobody would believe in things like Geass unless they were directly, outright watching them happen. But when you see it, well, rationalism says 'accept it for now'.

The Chinese Federation has the highest probability of superstition among its populace, since they're still struggling towards modernization, but officials in general will have a response of generalized disbelief, unless they're outright seeing it in action or have seen so much other weird shit that Geass actually makes it all make sense.

Aerospace technology? Do all the powers have com sats? High speed commercial passenger airlines?


Commercial passenger airlines, but not high speed. I've set Geassverse to 'never developed the jet engine' (it's the only way to make sense of all those float system units not dying violently the moment a fighter jet hops onscreen). They actually still field heavy propeller aircraft, though they don't see extensive use, because it needs to be a situation in dire need of air support, and propeller aircraft are a bit fragile on the modern battlefield. VTOLs are generally preferred for combat purposes.

All powers do have comm satellites and space programs, though manned spaceflight is less ahead, with Yuri Gagarin only having gone up a year ago (the primary spacelift method is mass drivers, and they can ship up equipment very efficiently, but are not so good for squishy mortals unless you get a really gorram large one - one notable one being the Toromo Institute in Cambodia, and even it can't handle a human-survivable ground-to-orbit dump on its own, without support from the payload's own engines). Rocket engines exist, but they're not as epic as ours were in the 60s, so mass drivers are considered significantly more efficient for ground-to-orbit purposes, with rockets saved for maneuvering in orbit.

Might Earthquake bombs, like the Tallboy and Grand Slam, been skipped over in development, or otherwise never fielded?


Hm. I'd say they were most likely fielded, actually. Probably by the Japanese in the First Pacific War (though towards the end - they would've needed to develop something to penetrate progressively-stronger Chinese bunkers). They're not used much at this point, because Britannian HQs move - they seem more of the 'don't be there' philosophy, rather than dependent on bunkers, and their royalty less 'hides in a bunker for safety' and more 'walks onto the front line for safety'. Britannia most likely uses them sometimes, since the EU and China seem to use more stationary command points, though.

There were some ugly incidents or plans involving the Imperial Japanese and mass suicide, assisted or otherwise during and after WWII. Were there any cognates with the First and Second Pacific Wars?


Limited. There were some plans in the First, but the Chinese didn't push the matter onto Japanese soil, so nobody needed to commit suicide. No 'mass' suicides in the Second - the war simply proceeded so fast that by the time people could start considering suicide, they'd already lost. There were still suicides, but no opportunity to whip up public panic and cause anything to happen en masse (and Britannia was, honestly, less 'existentially terrifying' than the US - there were no stories floating out of people taking collections of skulls and finger trophies).
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Knight of L-sama » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:26 pm

Okay, another random thought/question while we wait for Chapter Six (well apart from "Why do all the fics I like have slow update schedules?").

As a magus... how powerful is Lelouch, at least potentially? I know you described Codes and Geasses deriving from them as direct links to Alaya (or however you spell it) but even with that in mind what Lelouch did was... impressive to say the least. He not only forced his Geass to evolve through sheer force of will but he over-rode Chuck's presumably higher level authority and then made Alaya sit up and beg through sheer force of will alone. At least as I see it though would make even Sorcerers, True Ancestors and the more powerful Dead Apostles tread lightly (ignore the overlap between some of those groups) while causing Counter-Guardians to either run away or worship at your feet. (Except maybe Zeltrch, but in this case Kaleidoscope is probably the most effective counter).

So how does that translate to regular magecraft? Because it essentially translates to imposing your will on the world around you and Lelouch's will managed to establish itself as stronger than the collective will of humanity.

Edit: And on the Antarctica front (ie No People = No Evil) I don't know. When we saw the thought elevator in Antarctica activate some of those penguins looked pretty shifty to me.
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand, million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gates of El-Hazard will always be open to you.
Knight of L-sama
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 381
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby OSMQEP » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:48 pm

Spoilers

Knight of L-sama wrote:Okay, another random thought/question while we wait for Chapter Six (well apart from "Why do all the fics I like have slow update schedules?").


Maybe your taste requires a quality that requires a good amount of hard work alongside real world aptitudes that tend to lead to challenging occupations? For fanfic, the economics tend to be pretty terrible. It makes sense to do other things at the same time. If one puts in the effort to get the story squared away perfectly, one is also likely to want to do the other things properly also.

Opportunity costs and all that.

On my end, I generally can run through any material I'm in the mood to read pretty rapidly. Unless I'm rereading a really huge collection of documents. So, I expect to wait, especially when part of why I like a story relates to it needing bunches of manhours to create.

Knight of L-sama wrote:As a magus... how powerful is Lelouch, at least potentially? I know you described Codes and Geasses deriving from them as direct links to Alaya (or however you spell it) but even with that in mind what Lelouch did was... impressive to say the least. He not only forced his Geass to evolve through sheer force of will but he over-rode Chuck's presumably higher level authority and then made Alaya sit up and beg through sheer force of will alone. At least as I see it though would make even Sorcerers, True Ancestors and the more powerful Dead Apostles tread lightly (ignore the overlap between some of those groups) while causing Counter-Guardians to either run away or worship at your feet. (Except maybe Zeltrch, but in this case Kaleidoscope is probably the most effective counter).


I may have some information on this. However, I'm going off vague memories for this, I'm not in my best condition, and I've already found my understanding of what happened on a related issue to have been incorrect for the story this thread. Buyer beware and all that.

Firstly, both Nasu and Geass have had spokespersons for entrenched power claim that human nature can be altered by breeding. Pale Wolf seems to be assuming that these statements are correct for the purposes of this story.

So, this is a setting where human eugenics could work. I wouldn't mind if the story failed to explore that on a societal level. (I do not find such things very plausible in real life, and I expect plans about such to fail badly.)

IIRC, and paraphrasing plus my own estimate, take the breeding program that made Rin, times ten or so for time, plus some odd materials, and divide by a fudge factor because good mage qualities were only correlated with what they were actually breeding for.

The ingredients of a nasu mage seem to be breeding, training, personal genius, research materials, focus of effort, and lifespan. Score it as pluses for breeding and genius, maybes for training and research, probably not for focus, as he is a political animal, and laughter for lifespan. Nasu mages train from early childhood, they focus their whole life on study and research exclusive of other things, then they do surgery on what they call their souls to pass stuff down to their kids, who are to hand things down over the generations. Just off of what little I know of his personality, I'd guess he might choose otherwise, even if presented with an opportunity. I don't see where he'd get first rate magical training without Zouken.

It would be pretty funny if he said screw Britannian power politics, I've done everything I want to do. I'm gonna retire, study magic, and raise kids. I'll teach 'em magic, unless they don't want to learn. I'll listen when my kids tell me to go pound sand. Then maybe one of his kids runs off and fakes his death, is very bitter about how his father wasn't a manipulative tyrant, and tries to become world dictator.


Knight of L-sama wrote:So how does that translate to regular magecraft? Because it essentially translates to imposing your will on the world around you and Lelouch's will managed to establish itself as stronger than the collective will of humanity.


This is relevant to my misunderstanding. Apparently, in War of Kings, the collective will of mankind is kind of apathetic. Lelouch's Geass ended up creating the only real consensus, and created the counterforce and counter guardians.

I'm somewhat wondering if maybe Lelouch just had a more suitable power for manipulating intentions at that point, and thereby beat Charles, but that without opposition, any halfway workable ability with just a little power would have done.

I think I have a quote somewhere, but I'm not up to digging into my file right now, much less checking extant sources if I find I've missed it.

Knight of L-sama wrote:Edit: And on the Antarctica front (ie No People = No Evil) I don't know. When we saw the thought elevator in Antarctica activate some of those penguins looked pretty shifty to me.



I think Nasu has fae, and IIRC, they are responsible for the Thought Elevators in this story. If so, they may be in Antarctica. They may also have enough agency and be close enough to people to count as evil. Might not be a big part of First Counter Guardian's worldview however.

Pale Wolf,
I've found an error in one of my earlier statements. The First Emperor of the Yuan was Kublai, not Ogedai. Ogedai was a son of the first Khagan, while Kublai was a grandson. Ogedai is said to have killed, IIRC, 800,000 in Baghdad, which is part of why he comes to mind.


Edit:Another Late Night/Low Sleep/Insomnia writing thing

Because I have fun thinking about War of Kings.

Master/Servant Summery

I think I've figured out the identity of the Aryan Knight Marshal.

Archer Anya/EMIYA: Ouch and Oh Dear.

Assassin Team Gilcenary

Berserker Takara/A certain person in the time of Caster and Lancer, who didn't fight either. : I'm kinda wanting to see Takara fight Assassin's master using evil kung fu at the moment. This isn't the head canon I read the story with, but I have a notion of her having learned from her grandfather, who was a wuxia villain. I imagine him as having been active in China prior to and during the First Pacific War. This was a product of a Wulin thinking binge, similar to how a browsing a reference on historical paper money made me wonder about how it went down in War of Kings universe. (Imperial Japan had a bunch of puppet banks running mints. Apparently, some of them flooded China with notes.)

Caster I'm certain on both now: I tracked down some books on the man I am now certain is Caster. So, I have some cites that weren't off the internet once I get them typed up. Also, I am concerned about things in the custody of Caster's Master, considering the nature of Caster. I'm also worried about what Caster might be capable of, with his master's Prana, and the class territory and item skills. Caster seems to have been a bit of a Bishie, which I intend to make jokes about. (Of course, as you have mentioned, in real life Rider did not have the stature of virility he had in Fate/Zero.) Also, I'm giggling over shipping Caster and Cornelia.

Lancer Lelouch/Eowyn: Servant wise, maybe the only one that can hope to compete with Caster for intrigue and political manipulation.

Rider Euphemia/Alexander I kind of wish I had a recording of Euphemia's VA singing a certain Enka song, partly because I have a sick sense of humor. As a commentator, I hope for many scenes of Euphemia in the rubble of Japanese cities, especially Tokyo.
.
Saber Kallen/Aturia I'm wondering if Reinforcement can be used for a hand-to-hand version of what Kallen does with her custom mech.

Saber ???/Aturia: ??? might be the Magus with foreshadowing. I strongly expect this, by now. It isn't far enough to be certain, but conservation of cast is suggestive.

??? ???/???: If the Magus with foreshadowing participates in the grail war, and somebody else has the other Saber, this servant might be called. There is a quote that I haven't tracked down at the moment which suggests this option might still be in play.

I really like the mix of Servants in this one.

Caster and Rider match, thematically and for various other reasons. We have six close matches for the king theme, and two more distant. Berserker, Caster, Lancer, maybe Rider, and maybe the Sabers have ties to each other. Archer, Assassin, Rider and the Sabers have ties to each other, and are fairly standard, well known servants. Looked at altogether, we also have really good fits for the themes of conquest, ruling, liberation, revolution and disaster management(Archer kind of mainly fits the last one).

Questions: Does Caster have his claimed divine and royal ancestries? Any chance EMIYA has read enough superman comics to have picked up the 'Great Caesar's Ghost' swear?


Checks Misc Notes:
Takara's Milan history makes me think strongly of Campione. (Many of the magical girls in Campione are out of Milan.)

Li was also the name of a Manchu clan. I am certain that he doesn't have the right haircut. (The Manchu men shaved the front of their heads, and grew the hair in back long. The Han were also required to do this, on pain of death, and didn't care for it to the point of rebellion.)

Question: Are the Thugs still active in the Chinese Federation? There wouldn't have been the British department that carried out anti-thug and anti-dacoit activities. (I don't know how effective it was at the latter, but it was apparently entirely effective at the former, eventually. That said, there are plenty of options for cognates.)

The War of Kings setting might be pretty good for a Legends of Wulin game.

Dan Inouye's recent death made me think of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese living in Hawaii at the time, and that I think I remember the Britannian invasion being pictured as coming from there, and the Philippines, among other places.

Question: Does Britannia has a good synthesis for for a nerve agent yet? The poison gas in story is a cover, but I wonder what sort of stuff Britannia could be researching. Given that you mention that Geass verse has worse chemistry, it seems possible that they might still be researching stuff we had during WWII. (Of course, Refrain is probably not something we can make. It might be a natural product, but it seems a bit cheap for that. Not to mention that plants tend to make stuff to kill things, and brain stuff that fancy seems a bit baroque for their purposes.)
-Real Life has eaten my brain, but I shall return.
OSMQEP
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 65
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:56 am

Knight of L-sama wrote:Okay, another random thought/question while we wait for Chapter Six (well apart from "Why do all the fics I like have slow update schedules?").


Eheheh. Sorry? ^^;

As a magus... how powerful is Lelouch, at least potentially? I know you described Codes and Geasses deriving from them as direct links to Alaya (or however you spell it) but even with that in mind what Lelouch did was... impressive to say the least. He not only forced his Geass to evolve through sheer force of will but he over-rode Chuck's presumably higher level authority and then made Alaya sit up and beg through sheer force of will alone. At least as I see it though would make even Sorcerers, True Ancestors and the more powerful Dead Apostles tread lightly (ignore the overlap between some of those groups) while causing Counter-Guardians to either run away or worship at your feet. (Except maybe Zeltrch, but in this case Kaleidoscope is probably the most effective counter).

So how does that translate to regular magecraft? Because it essentially translates to imposing your will on the world around you and Lelouch's will managed to establish itself as stronger than the collective will of humanity.


Conventional magecraft isn't strictly about willpower, though willpower is involved. It's a question of mystical power and technique, mostly - willpower is useful for maintaining concentration, and pushing oneself (and forcing oneself to learn the technique in the first place), but it doesn't directly factor into one's ability at magecraft.

That said, Lelouch is in the top fraction of a percent, as caster potential goes. He has the work ethic and skill at 'book learning' to grasp technique, and in terms of prana, he's zany, best compared to loons like Barthomeloi - the Britannian royal family has high magical circuit capacity. That said, while he is a prodigy and has the potential for it, he's unlikely to become a 'great spellcaster' - the timeframe of the war is too short for even a prodigy to learn advanced magecraft from scratch, and after the war (assuming he survives), he'd mostly be on leisure time, and while he may pursue magecraft, it would most likely be a side thing, not a focused pursuit. (It's a useful tool for him, not a life passion)

(Heh, and OSMQEP basically gets it)

Edit: And on the Antarctica front (ie No People = No Evil) I don't know. When we saw the thought elevator in Antarctica activate some of those penguins looked pretty shifty to me.


Shhhhh. If they hear that you've caught on, they'll get you.

OSMQEP wrote:Firstly, both Nasu and Geass have had spokespersons for entrenched power claim that human nature can be altered by breeding. Pale Wolf seems to be assuming that these statements are correct for the purposes of this story.


Not strictly correct. Though Charles was correct in that people aren't equal in their capacity - just a basic look at the world will tell that much. (Of course, the obvious retort to that is that 'capacity does not equal rights or ethics')

'Human nature', no - or at least, not measurably (it's really hard to measure how personality traits may or may not be inherited, versus what's simply a product of being surrounded by those traits). However, inherited characteristics can be passed down. Magical circuit number/quality is one of these inherited characteristics. A general trend towards high IQ is another. The Britannian royal family is a strong case of this, because their inheritance follows the tanistry model, and rather than 'the eldest', it's 'the most proven/qualified' who inherits. So you get 'the most qualified' of one generation of Britannian royalty who gives birth to the next. And then 'the most qualified' of that generation that gives birth to the third. It's basic evolution, same way that tall parents tend to produce tall children - the current Britannian royal family is the product of ninety-nine generations of 'the most qualified', which does lead to a higher prevalence within that family for traits that increased the likelihood of their holders claiming the throne. Intelligence and magical capacity are among those traits.

Mind, this is a matter of averages and trends, even after two thousand years. Evolution is really slow. There is a statistical trend, but it's a trend, not an absolute. And Lelouch is way above the slow line upwards that the statistics would have one think ('course, so's Charles...).

And then you get to add in the clear supernatural heritage of several of their early rulers, which gives no small bonus in magical capacity to start with. And the general ability of the highest social class in the nation to woo the best mates.

The ingredients of a nasu mage seem to be breeding, training, personal genius, research materials, focus of effort, and lifespan.


Not strictly breeding, but, circuit number and quality. This is a general inherited trend, but it's not absolutely tied to breeding - on one end, we have the way the Matou clan degenerated despite taking every possible effort in breeding. And on the other, we have absolute freaks like Ciel and Satsuki, with no magical heritage whatsoever, where Ciel has five times the magical strength of 'bred for two hundred years and this was insanely fast to reach this level' Rin, and Satsuki hops up the vampire rankings with zany speed and develops a Reality Marble within like a week. (And Shirou himself, for that matter - kid out of completely nowhere, off the street as best anyone can tell, with half-again the magical strength of a fully qualified, five-generation magus, and as Archer, has a Mana ranking of B, which is fairly zany when you note that that's only one rank short of dedicated Casters)

And also, magic crest - which isn't strictly breeding, but is related. The crest being the 'magical abilities my ancestors figured out, stored so I don't have to figure them out again'. This doesn't actually have to be passed down through lineage. It's essentially an organ transplant, so the donor and recipient need to be as compatible as possible to minimize rejection. Parent-to-child is, obviously, a very high compatibility. (That said, with modern medical techniques, you could probably pass a crest down to anyone you felt like, since ways to artificially increase the compatibility have been developed. Of course, magi don't pay enough attention to the modern world to know this...)

And Nasu magi also add one more ingredient in - conscience (which is to say, lack thereof). Clock Tower prizes research results, and does not much care how they are obtained. (For instance, in Kara no Kyokai, Souren's little 'drive the inhabitants of this apartment complex to madness and murder each other over and over and over again' project... is completely, 100% kosher by Association rules)

Score it as pluses for breeding and genius, maybes for training and research, probably not for focus, as he is a political animal, and laughter for lifespan. Nasu mages train from early childhood, they focus their whole life on study and research exclusive of other things, then they do surgery on what they call their souls to pass stuff down to their kids, who are to hand things down over the generations. Just off of what little I know of his personality, I'd guess he might choose otherwise, even if presented with an opportunity. I don't see where he'd get first rate magical training without Zouken.


Well, Kokoro is a damn good teacher. She has absolutely obsessive knowledge of the theory, and she's quite good at explaining it. Not precisely 'first-rate' because her circuit capacity is so low (she has five, average magus has twenty) that she can't do the high-end stuff (or the medium-end stuff) herself, so she doesn't have firsthand experience, but in terms of book learning on the subject, she's pretty close to peerless.

Though, she's hardly unaffiliated with Zouken, so...

But yes, Lelouch scores high on circuits and genius.
Training is a midrank, as you note - Kokoro's an incredible teacher for the theory, and for certain aspects of 'actually doing it', but she can't rack up extensive experience on casting high-end spells because she falls unconscious even if she manages to get them out in the first place. For the 'basic early stuff', she is a high-score teacher, but it lowers once you get into high-power crap.
Research materials, probably a fairly low rank. This comes down to money, and Lelouch just doesn't have vast quantities of that to spare. He has a hell of a lot more of it than any actual magi, mind you, but actual magi aren't funding an armed resistance movement.
Crest is, of course, a flat zero. Even if as I noted above, modern surgical techniques make crest transfer across bloodlines doable, he doesn't have a crest to graft on, nor sufficiently extensive knowledge to do it (he can potentially cover the medical knowledge end due to extensive study, but he just doesn't know enough about circuits, and frankly he'd probably rather have a fully trained doctor cover it anyway). (And the stresses involved will be higher since he's not in childhood anymore)
Lifespan, training time, is of course low - he's literally starting from scratch here, while most 'good' magi have at least a decade under their belts.
Conscience, high, which means low. He lets his ethics slip more often than he'd like, but he has them in the first place, and he's just not obsessive enough about magecraft to go dropping them for it.
And focus of effort, rather low. As I noted above, he's not really an obsessive mage. He's a spellcaster. Magecraft is a useful tool for his goals, so worth developing, but it always takes a backseat to the goals it is meant to aid.

It would be pretty funny if he said screw Britannian power politics, I've done everything I want to do. I'm gonna retire, study magic, and raise kids. I'll teach 'em magic, unless they don't want to learn. I'll listen when my kids tell me to go pound sand. Then maybe one of his kids runs off and fakes his death, is very bitter about how his father wasn't a manipulative tyrant, and tries to become world dictator.


Heheh. Well, Lelouch might. The biggest loose end in his plans is 'so then what do I do?' He doesn't really have any specifics for what he wants to do with his life after achieving his goals.

This is relevant to my misunderstanding. Apparently, in War of Kings, the collective will of mankind is kind of apathetic. Lelouch's Geass ended up creating the only real consensus, and created the counterforce and counter guardians.


Not quite apathetic, but divided. The collective will of mankind can't even agree on what toppings go on their pizza. Lelouch basically tipped the balance. (Which, mind, is no small feat - if we think of this as a political committee, he walked in and gave a speech that turned it from 'pure deadlock' to 'two thirds majority')

I'm somewhat wondering if maybe Lelouch just had a more suitable power for manipulating intentions at that point, and thereby beat Charles, but that without opposition, any halfway workable ability with just a little power would have done.


He wasn't actually fighting Charles at all. Charles was enacting alterations on Alaya while it looked on and argued with itself about what to do, if anything. Lelouch convinced Alaya, and thus Alaya woke up and suckerpunched Charles. (Think of a schoolyard bully here. Bully beats up the big kid, who isn't fighting back, just standing there. Little kid convinces the big kid to fight back, big kid then does so and splatters the bully)

I think Nasu has fae, and IIRC, they are responsible for the Thought Elevators in this story. If so, they may be in Antarctica. They may also have enough agency and be close enough to people to count as evil. Might not be a big part of First Counter Guardian's worldview however.


Well, the fae aren't precisely evil. But they are definitely inhuman, and have goals directed by a force that is... not inimical to humanity, but not in favour of it either. (Lancer, being half-fae, has declared that the fae are all dicks, but she's somewhat biased)

I think I've figured out the identity of the Aryan Knight Marshal.


Heheh. He's not actually in this fic, of course, but he is known to some of the Servants (Lancer is a total fangirl of his).

Archer Anya/EMIYA: Ouch and Oh Dear.


Good summary!

I'm kinda wanting to see Takara fight Assassin's master using evil kung fu at the moment. This isn't the head canon I read the story with, but I have a notion of her having learned from her grandfather, who was a wuxia villain. I imagine him as having been active in China prior to and during the First Pacific War.


Her grandfather, no. Her father, yes. Her father was in his teens during PW1, though he did cross into China late in PW1 (shortly after his participation in the Third Grail War) and provided some assistance to the anti-Japanese resistance movements. (Also? He was terrifying. The kid was entirely capable of punching someone's head off. He was a high-water mark and made it to the final match of the Third Holy Grail War, and the Third Holy Grail War involved far more developed magi than the Tohsaka at that stage - the Edelfelts - as well as trained military officers, and people who laid landmines in the streets)

... Oddly, one could consider that to be a reprise of the Kirei/Kiritsugu fight? Pragmatic mercenary versus kung-fu, just, swap which one's evil.

Caster I'm certain on both now: I tracked down some books on the man I am now certain is Caster. So, I have some cites that weren't off the internet once I get them typed up. Also, I am concerned about things in the custody of Caster's Master, considering the nature of Caster.


Yes, if Gilgamesh can have an armoury based on ruling 'the world', then Caster might have a bit of something based on conquering and looting 'the world'... And don't forget what his Master has floating around - at the very least, what his Master intended to use as summoning catalyst (and got rejected by everyone the catalyst would apply to).

I'm also worried about what Caster might be capable of, with his master's Prana, and the class territory and item skills.


He's fortunately not desperately high in item creation, but he's damn solid at territory construction. And don't forget his military skills.

Caster seems to have been a bit of a Bishie, which I intend to make jokes about. (Of course, as you have mentioned, in real life Rider did not have the stature of virility he had in Fate/Zero.)


Well, he's a descendant of the Goddess of Love, he ought to have something going on...

Lancer Lelouch/Eowyn: Servant wise, maybe the only one that can hope to compete with Caster for intrigue and political manipulation.


Indeed. They've got an easy ride of it for now, but... well, the real opposition will start coming in.

Saber Kallen/Aturia I'm wondering if Reinforcement can be used for a hand-to-hand version of what Kallen does with her custom mech.


Well, reinforcement, no. But there are certainly magecraft methods to go about it. (Honestly, it'd be a fairly simple piece of flame magecraft)

Saber ???/Aturia: ??? might be the Magus with foreshadowing. I strongly expect this, by now. It isn't far enough to be certain, but conservation of cast is suggestive.


If you mean Farah? Then no. The Sabers were summoned simultaneously - it was the same (failed) summoning that brought both of them into the world. Farah has been marked as a Master candidate, but she hasn't actually summoned yet.

Strictly speaking, all the slots are filled, so she shouldn't be able to. But there's enough spare prana in the Grail to summon more Servants, and she has a close enough tie to the last class that she alone can summon someone of that class even beyond the 'official' limits.

That said, all Servants will be summoned and active as of the next Chapter.

I really like the mix of Servants in this one.

Caster and Rider match, thematically and for various other reasons. We have six close matches for the king theme, and two more distant. Berserker, Caster, Lancer, maybe Rider, and maybe the Sabers have ties to each other. Archer, Assassin, Rider and the Sabers have ties to each other, and are fairly standard, well known servants. Looked at altogether, we also have really good fits for the themes of conquest, ruling, liberation, revolution and disaster management(Archer kind of mainly fits the last one).


Thanks, I like the mix myself. I only regret that I couldn't fit in one more Lancer. (Caster grew up idolizing Rider. Rider grew up idolizing that Lancer)

Questions: Does Caster have his claimed divine and royal ancestries?


Yup. I mean, if Rider gets to have his, then Caster sure can.

Any chance EMIYA has read enough superman comics to have picked up the 'Great Caesar's Ghost' swear?


Probably not, but he might swear for a looong period of time. Caster's primary weapon sort of freaks Emiya out (it's tied to someone's Reality Marble, and that Reality Marble - aka, that soul - is 'same yet opposite' to his own, so it's deeply strange for him).

Takara's Milan history makes me think strongly of Campione. (Many of the magical girls in Campione are out of Milan.)


Heh. Well, it's mostly because the Tohsaka European home is in Milan...

Question: Are the Thugs still active in the Chinese Federation? There wouldn't have been the British department that carried out anti-thug and anti-dacoit activities. (I don't know how effective it was at the latter, but it was apparently entirely effective at the former, eventually. That said, there are plenty of options for cognates.)


The Thuggee? Not the originals - they developed, but were hunted down by the pre-MEF that ruled India at the time... and the MEF authorities usually arrived to find them all already dead. The leading theory is that some other non-Muslim religious group didn't want the psychos drawing fire down on the sane practitioners of said religions, and hunted them down. The methodology pops up again from time to time, usually hitting its fever pitch when matters are fairly unstable (Such as during PW1) - not strictly religious, but killing people and taking their shit has always been a popular way to make money. The MEF and the Chinese Federation aren't exactly aces at policing.

Dan Inouye's recent death made me think of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese living in Hawaii at the time, and that I think I remember the Britannian invasion being pictured as coming from there, and the Philippines, among other places.


Yeah, those provided rather convenient springboards to cross some of that ludicrous distance.

Question: Does Britannia has a good synthesis for for a nerve agent yet? The poison gas in story is a cover, but I wonder what sort of stuff Britannia could be researching. Given that you mention that Geass verse has worse chemistry, it seems possible that they might still be researching stuff we had during WWII. (Of course, Refrain is probably not something we can make. It might be a natural product, but it seems a bit cheap for that. Not to mention that plants tend to make stuff to kill things, and brain stuff that fancy seems a bit baroque for their purposes.)


Pretty much all major nations have chemical warfare capability. It's not on par with what we have, but they can, in general, deploy it.

That said, it's of limited use nowadays because everyone, infantry included, walks onto the battlefield with full protection. So it serves best for war crimes, and causes a general repugnance when used.

(Poison gas wasn't strictly a cover, but a misunderstanding on the part of the rebels - they see extreme secrecy measures, biological containment, sterilization, and they think 'they're developing poison gas'. In terms of cover, the Britannians have never stopped claiming it was medical supplies, though at this point, nobody who's actually in authority in Japan has a bloody clue what it was)

Refrain was actually developed by Code-R, based on the data from CC. It creates geass-like mental effects, and Clovis saw the potential for, well, keeping the Japanese placid. It wasn't the goal of the project, but it was a nice side benefit.
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby OSMQEP » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:57 am

Off the cuff, I just finished a biography of Caster this week, with various other reasons I don't have my stuff together for anything fancier.

Pale Wolf wrote:Not strictly correct. Though Charles was correct in that people aren't equal in their capacity - just a basic look at the world will tell that much. (Of course, the obvious retort to that is that 'capacity does not equal rights or ethics')

The Geass spokesperson I was thinking of was a teacher at the academy in R1. Part of Britannia's legitimating narrative is a version of one of the standard 'Aristocrats are better' narratives.

Charles is slightly less insane if he is understood in the context of those who insist that equality of outcomes is necessary for treating people equally. Schools that naturally fall into a state of perpetual enmity tend to make the other look a little saner even as they polarize further into madness. I think I have pretty serious disagreements with both sets of adherents in this case. Real life, as always, is an excellent source of things to mine for fiction.

Pale Wolf wrote:Not strictly breeding, but, circuit number and quality.

I think I have may been using an odd usage of breeding. Maybe also for training. Consider part of upbringing to have been rolled into both, with up to seven or so included in breeding. Thus, breeding would include early childhood development, and have an influence on development of conscience and morality. Ah well, not important as I am just nitpicking terms.

Pale Wolf wrote:And also, magic crest - which isn't strictly breeding, but is related.
My understanding is that circuits, and hence the crest, are spiritual, and might not have an actual physical reality. My understanding is that crest includes some amount of circuits, and thus increases ability to channel prana. Anyway, if the transfer is done in early childhood, I would consider it to maybe qualify under breeding.

All the things that can be meant by inheritance increase the potential for confusion here. There are traits inherited by blood, by upbringing, and then there are objects and knowledge that can be handed down by will. In fantasy with magic that follows blood, there is the question of whether it follows genes, mystical things without physical meaning, or some combination of both. Anyway, I've just enough knowledge of the life sciences to get things really wrong when I get to really enjoy thinking about this sort of problem.

Edit:
Fun example I've heard about recently, regarding the Mahouka or 'Irregular at Magic Highschool' series. This is a low magic fantasy in a near future setting or something like that. Magic is heritable and the mechanism is apparently at least partly genes. There are supposedly implications that being born with really powerful magic can alter physical development, and it isn't clear whether this is prenatally or just early childhood.

Pale Wolf wrote:This is a general inherited trend, but it's not absolutely tied to breeding - on one end, we have the way the Matou clan degenerated despite taking every possible effort in breeding. And on the other, we have absolute freaks like Ciel and Satsuki, with no magical heritage whatsoever, where Ciel has five times the magical strength of 'bred for two hundred years and this was insanely fast to reach this level' Rin, and Satsuki hops up the vampire rankings with zany speed and develops a Reality Marble within like a week.

One could argue that maybe the degradation was a function of Zouken's tyranny suppressing the psychological aspects needed for the blood inherited side of things to actually develop. (Sakura had five years in the Tohsaka environment, IIRC. Perhaps if she had been raised from birth, like Shinji, she would be similar in magic to him. Or maybe prenatal environment is also important.)

Think about how freaks work with genes in real life. The alleles are generally there in the population, it is just rare for them to end up together. (Most mutations are lethal.) No magical heritage might just mean no records and no testing. So, maybe some from 'circumstances didn't allow for or cause testing' and some from 'bunch of traits came together that were trivial separate'. Maybe there are a bunch of unknown potential mages that will never have the option in Nasu. Roa could find one, because of how he worked. I don't have an explanation for Satsuki randomly ending up caught in things, if this is the case, beyond Tohno Gland, Counterforce, because magic or sheer random chance.

Shirou is possibly a bad example. Some of what happens to him is very odd, and well beyond what a magus might engineer during child-rearing. IIRC, he gets splashed with Iris-mud charged with the power of a destructive wish. He develops magical powers that are very useful for destruction. I think I can argue that the counterforce and Alaya could have engineered the fourth and fifth grail wars to create Shirou, so that they could have the services of Counterguardian EMIYA. Whatever he was before might not have had any bearing at all on the end result.

Pale Wolf wrote:Not quite apathetic, but divided. The collective will of mankind can't even agree on what toppings go on their pizza. Lelouch basically tipped the balance. (Which, mind, is no small feat - if we think of this as a political committee, he walked in and gave a speech that turned it from 'pure deadlock' to 'two thirds majority')

Okay, so I was mistaken again. I warned Knight of L-sama of the risk of that.

Pale Wolf wrote:Yes, if Gilgamesh can have an armoury based on ruling 'the world', then Caster might have a bit of something based on conquering and looting 'the world'... And don't forget what his Master has floating around - at the very least, what his Master intended to use as summoning catalyst (and got rejected by everyone the catalyst would apply to).

I thought Caster would be pretty bad when I was just thinking about Catalyst plus prana spam plus personal compatibility with Caster's Master. Now that I've been reading about him for a month my concern about what he might do is on his own merits. Nasty nasty piece of work. Also, I wonder if their partnership will be sealed by his Master marrying one of his daughters to Caster.

Also:
a biography by Gerard Walter wrote:"This innovation," writes Plutarch, "did him honour, won him public favour and endeared him to the multitude, who took such sensibility to be a mark of gentleness and kindly disposition."

Which was a very very very wrong conclusion, I think.

I feel sorry for the cast of War of Kings, mainly on account of Caster. As far as I'm concerned, his only positive trait is his treatment of pirates, and even there I don't like him paying ransom. He is capable, I don't like him, and reading so much of him reminded me of some of my own bad experiences. In short, he will serve this story well as a bad guy.

Pale Wolf wrote:He's fortunately not desperately high in item creation, but he's damn solid at territory construction. And don't forget his military skills.

Re: Military skills.

Caster has had many fanboys, and many people who revile him. Not to mention all of the hagiography he wrote and had written about his military campaigns. I'm out of contact with the only guy I'd absolutely trust to evaluate Caster's skills without bias. I've only read the one book, as opposed to the whole field, and I still have questions about how reliable it is on those points. On the other hand, if his fanboys are anything like they are in our world, I imagine he gets a Servant bonus to his actual ability, if it wasn't the absolute highest in the first place. (Real life, I'm certain he wasn't the absolute peak of military ability. Beyond that, I'm not sure.)

As for being a spymaster, talking people into stuff, intrigue, and other things I'm certain that he is very able.

Pale Wolf wrote:Thanks, I like the mix myself. I only regret that I couldn't fit in one more Lancer. (Caster grew up idolizing Rider. Rider grew up idolizing that Lancer)

Yes.

Also, Plutarch.

Might be just as well that you didn't fit him in. Bolded are alterations to conceal identities.

Horace, The Art of Poetry wrote:If you decide to write about that Lancer, make him active, hot-tempered, inexorable, and fierce; let him deny that laws were made for him, let him think his sword rules all.


David Drake wrote:One day I was rereading Horace’s Ars Poetica and came to the quotation I’ve translated as the epigraph to this essay. Homer is the only source for the character of that Lancer (which Horace summarizes with his usual succinct brilliance), but the character can have a life outside the cultural confines of The Iliad. There are and always have been men (and here I mean “male human beings”) like that Lancer; Rider made a conscious attempt to model his life on the character (and succeeded, in my opinion, only too well).

I really appreciate the hard work you've done getting this mix of Servants worked out.

Pale Wolf wrote:Caster's primary weapon sort of freaks Emiya out (it's tied to someone's Reality Marble, and that Reality Marble - aka, that soul - is 'same yet opposite' to his own, so it's deeply strange for him).

I seem to recall that the Catalyst that Caster's Master tried to use is both tied to Emiya, and to an entity's Reality Marble. If Caster is using that Catalyst, which should be possible with Prana spam, and it is his best weapon, that suggests that maybe he doesn't have a really good weapon Phantasm. That would be a relief, except it isn't. When they killed that turbulent priest, they outnumbered him, were armed, and made sure he had no arms and armor.

If Caster had his own Reality Marble, or can call on yet another party's Reality Marble, well... I hope I don't get confused.

Regarding the gas issue:

Sterility and containment maybe says more bio then chem to me. But it is possible that I have a better background then whoever the rebels had available for analysts. Because my thoughts on a poison gas project are good chemists, small quantities and that I have no clue what animal model would be most useful.

If the infantry have standard protection, then it is probably possible for each power to know what the other powers have in the way of suits. With a fast enough development cycle, and enough bio tech, it should be possible for to create a custom bug to eat specific model suits and compromise their protection. Still might be a fairly useless and indiscriminate weapon. Not to mention likely beyond your assumptions for the setting, at least in the near term.

Question: The soothsayer that warned Caster. In War of Kings, was that genuine prophecy, or was the Soothsayer presenting information from other sources in the way he was used to?
Question: Can a Servant get a Geass after being summoned?
Question: Is Code-R going to turn out to have done things that will make us regret being happy that Shirley's father isn't going to be killed just yet?

Edit: Observation I just remembered to add after the last editing pass: In humans, certain rare traits that are useful are often tied to things that are potentially problematic. I've heard that creativity and bipolar often run in the same families, and that high intelligence is often linked with neurological issues. Charles and Lelouch may be very capable, but they are also very screwed up, and it is possible that there is some sort of link.

Edit again: Silly errors, adding a pointless off topic comment, and me hitting logout instead of submit.
-Real Life has eaten my brain, but I shall return.
OSMQEP
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 65
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:01 pm

The Geass spokesperson I was thinking of was a teacher at the academy in R1. Part of Britannia's legitimating narrative is a version of one of the standard 'Aristocrats are better' narratives.


Ah, fair enough. Well. Some aristocrats do tend to have higher aptitudes for whatever they happen to be pursuing. This is less because of genetics (the aristocracy hasn't undergone the same selection pressures the royalty did - though aristocrats do generally descend from one 'exceptionally capable individual' who earned the aristocratic rank in the first place), and more a matter of upbringing - the aristocracy has the money to give out rather intensive training.

This is not the most widespread among the aristocracy, but it is a strain that exists - to put it in a sentence, these aristocrats are the ones that take 'the obligations of nobility' seriously. Basically, the aristocrats who actually match up to the ideals of chivalry and all - they do exist, though they're far from a majority. The resources exist for any aristocrat to manage this (see: Kallen), but how many do comes down to their own personality and attitudes.

I think I have may been using an odd usage of breeding. Maybe also for training. Consider part of upbringing to have been rolled into both, with up to seven or so included in breeding. Thus, breeding would include early childhood development, and have an influence on development of conscience and morality. Ah well, not important as I am just nitpicking terms.


Heh, fair enough.

My understanding is that circuits, and hence the crest, are spiritual, and might not have an actual physical reality. My understanding is that crest includes some amount of circuits, and thus increases ability to channel prana. Anyway, if the transfer is done in early childhood, I would consider it to maybe qualify under breeding.


It usually is, I'm just defining it separately because it's a strong correlation, but not causation - just being of a magical bloodline doesn't necessarily mean you'll get the crest, and it is potentially possible, though difficult, to transfer a crest to someone not of the same bloodline.

And yes, the crest is a set of circuits and can provide increased capacity in that sector as well. It's semi-spiritual. There is a physical manifestation, and considering Nasuverse eugenics works for increasing the circuits people hold, the physical side also appears to influence them.

All the things that can be meant by inheritance increase the potential for confusion here. There are traits inherited by blood, by upbringing, and then there are objects and knowledge that can be handed down by will. In fantasy with magic that follows blood, there is the question of whether it follows genes, mystical things without physical meaning, or some combination of both. Anyway, I've just enough knowledge of the life sciences to get things really wrong when I get to really enjoy thinking about this sort of problem.


Heheh. Yes, that's always fun.

Edit:
Fun example I've heard about recently, regarding the Mahouka or 'Irregular at Magic Highschool' series. This is a low magic fantasy in a near future setting or something like that. Magic is heritable and the mechanism is apparently at least partly genes. There are supposedly implications that being born with really powerful magic can alter physical development, and it isn't clear whether this is prenatally or just early childhood.


Huh, sounds interesting.

One could argue that maybe the degradation was a function of Zouken's tyranny suppressing the psychological aspects needed for the blood inherited side of things to actually develop. (Sakura had five years in the Tohsaka environment, IIRC. Perhaps if she had been raised from birth, like Shinji, she would be similar in magic to him. Or maybe prenatal environment is also important.)


That's very possible, yes. And as you note, just because they're not coming from a breeding program doesn't mean that the cause isn't genetic. I suspect it most likely is, but the fact that they're not intentionally bred meant I wanted to point that out from 'breeding'.

Shirou is possibly a bad example. Some of what happens to him is very odd, and well beyond what a magus might engineer during child-rearing. IIRC, he gets splashed with Iris-mud charged with the power of a destructive wish. He develops magical powers that are very useful for destruction. I think I can argue that the counterforce and Alaya could have engineered the fourth and fifth grail wars to create Shirou, so that they could have the services of Counterguardian EMIYA. Whatever he was before might not have had any bearing at all on the end result.


Yeah. Shirou has strangeness floating around. That one's certainly an interesting theory.

He could also just be one of those 'genetic upstarts' like Ciel.

Or it could be that the land they develop on makes a difference - Fuyuki is the second-best spiritual ground in Japan (in a Nanoha crossover seed, the best spiritual ground in Japan was Uminari City).

Or hell, he could come from a magus family for all we know - it's not like we or he actually know who his parents were.

I thought Caster would be pretty bad when I was just thinking about Catalyst plus prana spam plus personal compatibility with Caster's Master. Now that I've been reading about him for a month my concern about what he might do is on his own merits. Nasty nasty piece of work.


Yup. He was not a nice man, but he was certainly a capable man.

Also, I wonder if their partnership will be sealed by his Master marrying one of his daughters to Caster.


It was one of his methods. And as you noted, his first wife's name was Cornelia.

Which was a very very very wrong conclusion, I think.


Yes, it does seem to be.

I feel sorry for the cast of War of Kings, mainly on account of Caster. As far as I'm concerned, his only positive trait is his treatment of pirates, and even there I don't like him paying ransom. He is capable, I don't like him, and reading so much of him reminded me of some of my own bad experiences. In short, he will serve this story well as a bad guy.


Indeed. When I was reading his biography, I had this strange sense that his idea of escaping conviction for his previous crime was to commit a bigger one, a chain which he carried on for quite some time.

... It seemed to work out for him.

Caster has had many fanboys, and many people who revile him. Not to mention all of the hagiography he wrote and had written about his military campaigns. I'm out of contact with the only guy I'd absolutely trust to evaluate Caster's skills without bias. I've only read the one book, as opposed to the whole field, and I still have questions about how reliable it is on those points. On the other hand, if his fanboys are anything like they are in our world, I imagine he gets a Servant bonus to his actual ability, if it wasn't the absolute highest in the first place. (Real life, I'm certain he wasn't the absolute peak of military ability. Beyond that, I'm not sure.)

As for being a spymaster, talking people into stuff, intrigue, and other things I'm certain that he is very able.


He's not 'the peak of everything', no, but he is pretty goddamn good. (He does recieve a strong fame bonus, though he's got rather few fanboys in Geassverse - he's the villain of the dominant culture, not the hero. It's his enemies that're ruling the world. But hatred counts just as well as adulation for fame bonus)

And he's a fair bit more competent in straight-up combat than Medea-Caster was. Similar in skill to Gilles de Rais, though stronger (Gilles was a knight, and would have had significantly higher physical stats with a competent Master). Not his specialty, but he's quite competent at it, given his cavalry career.

Yes.

Also, Plutarch.

Might be just as well that you didn't fit him in. Bolded are alterations to conceal identities.


Ah. Not quite that Lancer. Look not to Greece, and look for a king.

"If you make war on ____, you will destroy a mighty empire." But the empire was his own. Whoops.

I seem to recall that the Catalyst that Caster's Master tried to use is both tied to Emiya, and to an entity's Reality Marble. If Caster is using that Catalyst, which should be possible with Prana spam, and it is his best weapon, that suggests that maybe he doesn't have a really good weapon Phantasm. That would be a relief, except it isn't. When they killed that turbulent priest, they outnumbered him, were armed, and made sure he had no arms and armor.

If Caster had his own Reality Marble, or can call on yet another party's Reality Marble, well... I hope I don't get confused.


He doesn't have his own, and he can't strictly call on someone else's - his sword manifests elements of it on contact. It was crafted by someone who had a proto-Reality Marble - they didn't intend to create a great weapon for him, but it leaked in simply because they hated him so much.

It is similar to Avalon in the sense that it's a manifestation of someone else's warped psyche.

Sterility and containment maybe says more bio then chem to me. But it is possible that I have a better background then whoever the rebels had available for analysts. Because my thoughts on a poison gas project are good chemists, small quantities and that I have no clue what animal model would be most useful.


You probably do. The Kouzuki group isn't all that well-funded or supported, and the Japanese educational system has most likely taken a pretty serious hit.

If the infantry have standard protection, then it is probably possible for each power to know what the other powers have in the way of suits. With a fast enough development cycle, and enough bio tech, it should be possible for to create a custom bug to eat specific model suits and compromise their protection. Still might be a fairly useless and indiscriminate weapon. Not to mention likely beyond your assumptions for the setting, at least in the near term.


Yeah. It may be possible (though difficult). Probably not worth it, though. It'd take really specific development and delivery to actually work.

Question: The soothsayer that warned Caster. In War of Kings, was that genuine prophecy, or was the Soothsayer presenting information from other sources in the way he was used to?


Hm. I'm not familiar with the soothsayer you have in mind, I'm afraid.

Question: Can a Servant get a Geass after being summoned?


A Servant is just as prone to alteration as they were in life. They can develop memory, they can take injuries, and they can get a Geass. It won't stay across summonings, but yes, it's entirely possible.

Question: Is Code-R going to turn out to have done things that will make us regret being happy that Shirley's father isn't going to be killed just yet?


Most likely. They've done quite a lot of nonconsensual human experimentation to begin with. Shirley's father may well have been a nice father, but he was also a member of Unit 731.

Edit: Observation I just remembered to add after the last editing pass: In humans, certain rare traits that are useful are often tied to things that are potentially problematic. I've heard that creativity and bipolar often run in the same families, and that high intelligence is often linked with neurological issues. Charles and Lelouch may be very capable, but they are also very screwed up, and it is possible that there is some sort of link.


They're definitely both. It's hard to tell whether it's heredity or upbringing, though, because, well, they both had pretty fucked-up childhoods.
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby OSMQEP » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:23 am

Pale Wolf wrote:And yes, the crest is a set of circuits and can provide increased capacity in that sector as well. It's semi-spiritual. There is a physical manifestation, and considering Nasuverse eugenics works for increasing the circuits people hold, the physical side also appears to influence them.


Standard thought experiment on my end, when I'm reading fantasy: We know genes are the only reliable part of traits inherited by blood because we have done experiments, and haven't come up with things contrary. The body of knowledge we have supporting this conclusion might not describe the whole of inheritance in a setting with magic. 'This is also modern earth with magic' means we get the flavor of that body of knowledge, but it does not mean that their body of knowledge is exactly the same as ours.

Vastly simplifying, DNA makes proteins. How do the proteins have an effect on magic? Does the inheritance of magical power fit with what we know of alleles, or does it match something else? Is it better explained by having spiritual non physical 'organs' and 'tissues', with their own parallel system of growth, and their own method of carrying inheritable traits? In short, something like the old sci fi question of if a exact duplicate of someone's chemistry would also duplicate the soul or whatever. If the chemistry is the same, does that make the magic the same?

Humans are made out of chemicals. I'm certainly not going to say that this is the whole story for us in our world. In a world with magic, is it the whole story as far as magic is concerned?

Anyway, one fantasy series where I am firmly convinced that genes are a satisfying explanation for that stuff is Wen Spencer's Tinker/Elfhome books.

So, for Nasu, I am undecided. I think it possible that there is a second, mystical set of carriers for inheritable traits that is not detectable by physical means. On the other hand, maybe that is an unneeded complication, and the weirder mystical crud can be duplicated with genetic engineering.

Pale Wolf wrote:Yeah. Shirou has strangeness floating around. That one's certainly an interesting theory.


I'm fond of that theory also. I feel I've advanced my ability to justify bizarre Archer/Shirou BS with it.

Pale Wolf wrote:It was one of his methods. And as you noted, his first wife's name was Cornelia.


Half was a reference to an argument that I'd read that he might've actually loved her. I don't have a convincing political motive for him refusing to divorce her. The other half was because Cornelia was available as a plausible alternate reading, so I wouldn't be explicitly spelling it out, and for the shock value of suggesting that pairing.

Geass has Charles, and Nasu has Zouken. Again, I feel sorry for the rest for the cast for having to deal also with Caster.

Pale Wolf wrote:He's not 'the peak of everything', no, but he is pretty goddamn good.


Well, I know the standard description is really good. I can also see that he was better than I am. I just don't have the background to make my own judgement with really fine levels of distinction. Especially for the range of ability he is in. I haven't and probably won't study him enough to be entirely confident in picking someone else's evaluation to fully trust in general. (For this story, of course, I have a great deal of trust in your judgement.) (The one guy I mentioned is a bit of a freak and a special case.)

Pale Wolf wrote:Not his specialty, but he's quite competent at it, given his cavalry career.


I think he may have also handled himself well dismounted in some infantry battles.

Pale Wolf wrote:Look not to Greece, and look for a king.


Well, strictly speaking, wasn't the guy I mentioned a minor king? That book was full of minor kings. I know he had a sidekick, and maybe some minions. I know the guy you are talking about.
Pale Wolf wrote:You probably do. The Kouzuki group isn't all that well-funded or supported, and the Japanese educational system has most likely taken a pretty serious hit.


I was thinking that even if the analyst was with one of the broader rebel groups, fancier education should raise flags in the databases that Britannian counter rebel intelligence should be keeping. Also, there is lots of stuff one can find in English on our internet. The Britannians should have scrubbed a lot of the interesting Japanese language stuff off of their electronic networks.

Pale Wolf wrote:Hm. I'm not familiar with the soothsayer you have in mind, I'm afraid.


The Biography I plan on citing all over the place mentions a bunch of stuff relating to just before the end. Anyway, this guy warned Caster something like two or three times in different ways that there would be problems.
Pale Wolf wrote:Most likely. They've done quite a lot of nonconsensual human experimentation to begin with. Shirley's father may well have been a nice father, but he was also a member of Unit 731.


Wouldn't 731 have been a Japanese unit? (Nana san ichi butai.) Pa Fenette is a Britannian, and I'd think he would have committed all his crimes against humanity as part of a Britannian organization? (He might not be a war criminal, strictly speaking, depending on who he was working for, and who the subjects were.)

Pale Wolf wrote:They're definitely both. It's hard to tell whether it's heredity or upbringing, though, because, well, they both had pretty fucked-up childhoods.

I recall saying last thread that if there were such a thing as tragic childhood genes, the marriage of Kokoro and Lelouch would be illegal in some jurisdictions.

Plus, the sets of all their (Charles and Lelouch) siblings and half siblings appear to be pretty large samples.
-Real Life has eaten my brain, but I shall return.
OSMQEP
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 65
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:22 pm

Vastly simplifying, DNA makes proteins. How do the proteins have an effect on magic? Does the inheritance of magical power fit with what we know of alleles, or does it match something else? Is it better explained by having spiritual non physical 'organs' and 'tissues', with their own parallel system of growth, and their own method of carrying inheritable traits? In short, something like the old sci fi question of if a exact duplicate of someone's chemistry would also duplicate the soul or whatever. If the chemistry is the same, does that make the magic the same?


That's actually quite an interesting question.

At the very least, we can tell it's not transferred by upbringing past the age of six, because Sakura's circuit performance is pretty much the same as Rin's, and while she had somewhat different magical traits, some of those were there from birth, and the others were, metaphorically speaking, surgically implanted. But that still leaves earlier-childhood upbringing, and the strange possibility of a spiritual inheritance mechanism as well.

Mm. Honestly, I'm not sure I aesthetically like spiritual inheritance. That line of thought leads around pretty swiftly to 'clones don't have a soul', and not far off that for in-vitro fertilization. Unless you just have the soul aspects carried on the sperm, at which point it's just an undetected/unanalyzed aspect of genetics to begin with.

That said, Nasuverse doesn't always hew to my aesthetics, or even basic common sense. So what's canonical, assuming he thought of it at all, is unknown.

Half was a reference to an argument that I'd read that he might've actually loved her. I don't have a convincing political motive for him refusing to divorce her. The other half was because Cornelia was available as a plausible alternate reading, so I wouldn't be explicitly spelling it out, and for the shock value of suggesting that pairing.


There would be a fair amount of 'what' involved.

Geass has Charles, and Nasu has Zouken. Again, I feel sorry for the rest for the cast for having to deal also with Caster.


As well as the previous two.

Well, I know the standard description is really good. I can also see that he was better than I am. I just don't have the background to make my own judgement with really fine levels of distinction. Especially for the range of ability he is in. I haven't and probably won't study him enough to be entirely confident in picking someone else's evaluation to fully trust in general. (For this story, of course, I have a great deal of trust in your judgement.) (The one guy I mentioned is a bit of a freak and a special case.)


Heh. That's fair enough. Honestly, at such a level, we're often just abstracting because I, the writer, certainly am not up there with him.

I think he may have also handled himself well dismounted in some infantry battles.


Yeah. He's a rather competent fighter, all around.

Well, strictly speaking, wasn't the guy I mentioned a minor king? That book was full of minor kings. I know he had a sidekick, and maybe some minions. I know the guy you are talking about.


Heh. I figured with that prophecy it was about five minutes before figuring him out.

I was thinking that even if the analyst was with one of the broader rebel groups, fancier education should raise flags in the databases that Britannian counter rebel intelligence should be keeping. Also, there is lots of stuff one can find in English on our internet. The Britannians should have scrubbed a lot of the interesting Japanese language stuff off of their electronic networks.


It's fairly difficult to find, honestly. You just can't clear off the internet, it's too damn big and you only have jurisdiction over a third or so of it.

But since the Japanese aren't in the best economic conditions, computers are not exactly casual-access items for an unsupported resistance group. And what the Britannians can do is keep some impression of net traffic and get a hunt and some pointed questions after people who frequent particular sites. Pretty much the same as the pirating C&D orders that tend to come out - near-identical techniques, and they're better at it. Plus since computer access is a bit rarer, they have a smaller pool to police. So if you access the Anarchist's Cookbook online and are Japanese, the odds are uncomfortably high that you'll recieve a police visit sometime.

And, as you noted, they keep an even closer eye on highly-educated malcontents. (And tend to target the ones with a better education for Honouraries to begin with)

The Biography I plan on citing all over the place mentions a bunch of stuff relating to just before the end. Anyway, this guy warned Caster something like two or three times in different ways that there would be problems.


Heh. There were quite a number. (90% of them caused by his own actions...)

Wouldn't 731 have been a Japanese unit? (Nana san ichi butai.) Pa Fenette is a Britannian, and I'd think he would have committed all his crimes against humanity as part of a Britannian organization? (He might not be a war criminal, strictly speaking, depending on who he was working for, and who the subjects were.)


Ah, by '731' I meant 'this is the kind of work he does'. We know they worked with unwilling subjects because, well, CC. And what they did to Jeremiah suggests that 'obtaining subject consent' is not exactly a big issue in their operating procedure.

CC is obviously the core sample, but most likely not the only one. The place was full of capsules similar to what they used for CC. Possibly other Code/Geass carriers, or possibly 'recipient' subjects - we know a primary aim of the program was to transfer or copy her immortality, and we know that they transferred aspects of CC into Jeremiah (which allowed him to operate Siegfried in the first place), so it's quite likely they developed the methods and technology somewhat beforehand.

The 'war criminal' question is an interesting one. I think definitionally, they wouldn't be, because they would mostly do it to their own people - does it count as war crimes if you do it to a population you annexed ten years ago and are currently the government of? Japanese subjects picked out of the ghettoes seems to be the easiest fruit to pick, and considering Clovis was A: hiding the project until he had full results to present, and B: had a grudge against the Japanese to begin with...

(Which, actually, gives a fair idea what the source of the knowledge about the program was...)

Atrocity, crime against humanity, those are certainly workable terms. Most likely illegal by Britannian domestic law, too, Clovis put a lot of effort (massacre) into hiding the program.

I recall saying last thread that if there were such a thing as tragic childhood genes, the marriage of Kokoro and Lelouch would be illegal in some jurisdictions.


Yes, yes it most likely would.

Plus, the sets of all their (Charles and Lelouch) siblings and half siblings appear to be pretty large samples.


Yes, though Charles and Lelouch are extreme cases on the 'capable', 'off in the head', and 'fucked-up childhood' scale. All three still exist in rather high measure for, well, most of the siblings we actually saw onscreen. (With the notable exception of Odysseus, who is not especially capable or off in the head. And some more minor ones who we just can't evaluate because they had so little screentime)
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Sauron of Mordor » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:24 pm

This is still active?

Well, this is utterly excellent news!
Sauron of Mordor
User avatar
Senshi Candidate
Posts: 13
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:26 pm

Yeah, I've still got this running. I really should pop something out, my schedule just got tighter since my last chapter delivery.
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Knight of L-sama » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:37 am

{Puts fist under chin and makes puppy dog eyes at Pale Wolf}

Pretty please Pale Wolf-sama!
:wink:
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand, million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gates of El-Hazard will always be open to you.
Knight of L-sama
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 381
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:41 pm

It's a work in progress! (Really, it is. I mean I also got distracted with making Magical Girl Emiya Shirou, but War of Kings is also in progress!)
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
Pale Wolf
User avatar
Fukufics Staffer
Posts: 1315
 

Re: The War of Kings [Code Geass and Fate/Stay Night Crossov

Postby Knight of L-sama » Thu May 23, 2013 5:48 pm

Hmmmm, I've just got my Code Geass Blu-Ray (and have actually been playing through Fate/Stay Night) and the intersection of these two things has given me some food for thought regarding War of Kings.

C.C. is fused with the Greater Grail in this fic and for some reason my mind translates this to 'Having tea with Justica von Einzbern', which is probably why I thought of this question. How are is C.C. of Justica and Angra Mainyu (I'm assuming that since this is analogous to the Fourth War, the Einzberns stil summoned Avenger in the Third War and screwed things up for everyone) and how aware are they of her? And does this extra factor attached to the Grail effect it's corruption and wish giving abilities?
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand, million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gates of El-Hazard will always be open to you.
Knight of L-sama
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 381
 

PreviousNext

Return to Stories and C&C

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users