Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:52 am

I don't know. I'm not sure which episode it is, regarding where it's mentioned, so... If I had a better idea of where it was mentioned, like I did with the stuff I looked up before (thanks to the manga, I only had to watch a little over one episode), I'd look the sub up to check it out. Well, I'll try to find it... I just don't know how long it would take to do so.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:18 am

Hmm, I see Crescent, I'll have to note your interpretation of 'calamity' is a bit narrow though. Typically a calamity refers to a disaster, as far as I know those can be of natural or non natural cause. So that term in and of itself does not denote who or what did it and as such I don't think you can disregard enemy action from the potential list of causes.

As for the time travel, well I didn't want to imply time travel not seen in the series itself, I'm just interpreting those that are seen, as potentially more damaging then one would think at first glance. Though after thinking about it a bit more, aside of the Snow Princess event, there isn't really much chance for anything else to happen... At least, as far as I can tell. So I suppose it being after Galaxia becomes fairly likely then, based purely on cannon, though I'm not as definitively sure as you are I guess.

On a side note, did Nehelenia in the end really kind of freeze the planet up for a little while? I guess it is a possible out come from making the world dark..., though I'm not sure the people would survive that process.... :?
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:48 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The answer to that is easy: everything of importance that happened, and made it possible for the story to be what it was, was shown to us.


I do in principle agree with that. However, only everything of importance to the story, that being Usagi struggling with romance and growing up while fighting evil, was shown to us. Other events that are not particularly relevant to that story are barely mentioned. The Great Freeze itself is one example. Another would be the background of the Silver Millenium, or the fact that the existence of other life-bearing planets was only mentioned in the fifth season, when it became relevant due to Galaxia.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:No, they're all human to begin with, regardless of what moon or planet they're from. What makes them different is their star seeds. While their bodies are expendable, they live forever as senshi, since star seeds can only be destroyed in the galaxy cauldron, where they were formed. In the manga, before the last story arc, the explanation for anyone being long-lived was due to the power of the ginzuishou. I don't think the age aspect of it ever came up in the anime and, frankly, I'd rather not have to watch through several episodes to find out.


Their expendable bodies dying is enough to qualify as 'death' for me. :)

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:But, let's put it like this: which sounds right, within the context of the Sailor Moon universe?

1: after peaceful lives, absent of any strife, the senshi die, and just happen to be reborn when they're needed again.

2: after a dramatic defeat, or a great struggle that seems endless, the senshi regroup in the next life to conquer the foe that had, ultimately, been victorious after their sacrifice.


Option 2 conflicts with Pluto's statement that Galaxia was the last great enemy. In addition, see below.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The answer is clear. Such a thing happened... at least five times. (All of the senshi, plus Endymion, at the very beginning. All of the senshi, after the defeat of Metallia. Pluto, after sacrificing herself to stop time. Saturn, after destroying Pharoah 90. And all of the senshi in the galaxy (at least; I'm not sure about any other star seeds) after Chaos was defeated by Usagi in the galaxy cauldron.) Dying peacefully never happened. In reality, sure, such an idea is a possibility. But it wouldn't in this universe because that's just not how Sailor Moon stories are told.


I disagree with your way of counting. There was only one complete defeat, that being the end of the Silver Millenium. In all the other cases, at least one senshi (Usagi) survived and pushed the silver crystal reset button, thus making them victories, not defeats. The fall of the Silver Millenium is the only instance of the entire sailor team being wiped out.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The absence of people being mentioned means that "earth" was likely meant to include its inhabitants as well. I mean, with such a "great calamity", one would expect someone to mention what happened to the people, if they had been spared from what happened: "Fortunately, we were able to relocate the people of earth in time, et cetera, et cetera."


Unless it would have been unimportant to Usagi's story. Which it was.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:As for how long a "long, long time" is, it's more likely closer to one-thousand years than a hundred. Not only because there was a Silver Millennium (in the past and future), but for the fact that the story drops at the end of the twentieth century (a millennium) and picks back up at the thirtieth century (another millennium). It could have been any other date, one of nine other numbers that weren't zero, but they weren't. Especially in the anime is this number made more significant, since the Silver Millennium of the past was said to have existed/ended one-thousand years ago. It's not a number of coincidence; it's design.


I have never seen any date given for the fall of the Silver Millenium. Besides, its name just means it lasted a thousand years. The thousand year interval is insignificant, IMO.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The problem with that is, by the time it's possible for the "great freeze" to happen, there's really nothing that Usagi can't do with the power of the ginzuishou. We know this because the world in the future, after being all but destroyed by the Dark Moon (including the inhabitants), is completely reversed.


Ah, no. We know that she can do that in the thirtiest century. We cannot conclude that she was already able to do that several centuries before. During the anime timeline, using the silver crystal still risked killing her.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if it was because of an enemy, something like that would have been mentioned as the cause of the delay. Again, the mistake being made, here, is thinking that it's alright to make up things just because an explanation isn't specific enough, and coming up with them without any basis for what has happened in the story before.


Disagree again. It just wasn't part of teenage Usagi's story. However, Sailor Pluto's statement still contradicts.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: the condition of the sun (which, in all likelihood, can also be fixed with the ginzuishou; though I doubt it'd be an issue with the sun since it's never mentioned and over its lifespan its condition has been fairly consistent).


Likely. Metallia was able to influence the sun (but then, she was born of it), so the silver crystal should too. However, that's an option: some evil being lowering the sun's output, which needs to be found and exterminated because it's smart enough to go into hiding, rather than use direct confrontation?

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The only remaining problem, as it has always been, is why it's not until the thirtieth century that Usagi is able to fix things up.


Seems that the simplest explanation would be that she had to learn and study how to use the silver crystal on that scale without killing herself, which would doom the world because there were no humans left to enable a rebirth? And it took a long, long time because this is Usagi trying to learn something. :D
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:45 pm

EDIT: after reading it over, I may or may not have misread one or two things. If so, I apologize, since I stayed up to make this post -- much longer than I wanted -- and I was tired. I was planning to go to bed after writing it, in fact, but now I've been up long enough, because of it, that I'm going to have to stay up until tonight. At least I'll be back on a normal sleep schedule... for a bit. ^^;

Quickshot0 wrote:Hmm, I see Crescent, I'll have to note your interpretation of 'calamity' is a bit narrow though.

It only seems narrow because I'm reasoning what it is within the proper context. If someone is interpreting the word "calamity" all by itself, then of course they have a license to conclude whatever's most convenient for them.

So I suppose it being after Galaxia becomes fairly likely then, based purely on cannon, though I'm not as definitively sure as you are I guess.

Its occurrence after Galaxia is certain. I mean, what else can it be based on, other than canon? ;p

On a side note, did Nehelenia in the end really kind of freeze the planet up for a little while? I guess it is a possible out come from making the world dark..., though I'm not sure the people would survive that process.... :?

I personally can't remember, but it'd be a bad idea (plot-wise) since we already have a "great freeze" and princess Kaguya's attempt to put the world on ice. Trying to freeze the world three times is a bit much. Kind of like the same girl in an RPG being kidnapped three times. *Glares at Shirley, from Tales of Legendia*

And, technically, people wouldn't survive being frozen. But we have to believe that they can, in Sailor Moon, because that much is said. Even though I'd rather not. XD


Pusakuronu wrote:I do in principle agree with that. However, only everything of importance to the story, that being Usagi struggling with romance and growing up while fighting evil, was shown to us. Other events that are not particularly relevant to that story are barely mentioned. The Great Freeze itself is one example. Another would be the background of the Silver Millenium, or the fact that the existence of other life-bearing planets was only mentioned in the fifth season, when it became relevant due to Galaxia.

There's much more to the story than that. ;/ Usagi may be the main character, and thus she's often at the center of the action, but the story's not told from her point of view only; and certainly what we know of the other characters isn't from her observations, rather than our own. And that's the point: she is not telling the story, and she, herself, is not the story. After all, the main plot of the story revolves around protecting the Earth from baddies, where she, along with other senshi, act as the guardians.

The other events mentioned are, thus, relevant to the story. Why some don't go into depth can be attributed to one, a combination of, or all of four things: one, the writer(s) for the anime; two, circumstances don't allow much time for in-depth explanations (this is sometimes fixed by using opportunities, allowable by the given circumstances, to impart everything that needs to be known in bits and pieces); three, the character imparting the information has a reason to say what they do, in the way that they do (in the case of a narrator, it's not uncommon to not reveal the entire story for one reason or another); and, four, there's prioritization of how scenes play out, and how long they last, in each episode, and those deemed the least important are given the least amount of attention and time, which means that some ideas and details might get axed entirely.

As for the answer to the relevance of life-bearing planets, you answered the unasked question: out of sight, out of mind. It wouldn't make sense for any character to take even a second's consideration for something outside of the current environment, unless it's a part of their character for their thoughts to stray to other things (Usagi wanting to eat food in the middle of a fight, when there's no food around and she's not hungry, as an unlikely example). But all things that we need to know, when we need to know it, comes in time. Usually a time that's designated as the appropriate time, but not necessarily to a satisfying degree of conveyance. It could just be chalked up to the medium and style, really, since the manga had no problem in conveying enough information for the reader.

In the end, there are some things that just don't need to be elaborated on; such as the Silver Millennium and other life-bearing planets, since the main premise has most of these events centered on Earth, in the now.

Their expendable bodies dying is enough to qualify as 'death' for me.

Just because their bodies are expendable doesn't mean that they died. ;/ Can die, yes; did die, no.

Option 2 conflicts with Pluto's statement that Galaxia was the last great enemy. In addition, see below.

It doesn't because Pluto was wrong. Chaos, remember? That's the greatest enemy. Shows how much she knows. Even in the final story arc itself, Galaxia was second fiddle to Chaos.

I disagree with your way of counting. There was only one complete defeat, that being the end of the Silver Millenium. In all the other cases, at least one senshi (Usagi) survived and pushed the silver crystal reset button, thus making them victories, not defeats. The fall of the Silver Millenium is the only instance of the entire sailor team being wiped out.

Le sigh. You disagree because you missed the point. The point was that they died, by either sacrificing themselves or being killed by the enemy, and that there was no such case that any one of them ever died because they lived in peace and got to die for living as long as their body would allow. I made this point to argue against the possibility that they lived until an old age and were reborn. And, yes, if someone has to be revived, or reborn, then they must have died. There's no point in reviving a live person, or being reborn when you're already born to a life.

Unless it would have been unimportant to Usagi's story. Which it was.

To elaborate on the first bit that I said to Quickshot, it's about the context. It wasn't about Usagi's story. I don't know how you drew that conclusion. It was about Endymion getting them all up to speed with a brief telling of the events that led up to their current situation. In both the dub and sub versions of his tale, how he tells it makes sense. At that time, he didn't need to go into much detail. The dub is more specific than the sub, in exactly what happened, but the message was more or less the same.

Considering how often people get caught in these situations, and thus need to be freed (just about every episode, really), Ockham's razor dictates that the easiest explanation was that they were not saved from being frozen on the planet. If the series is, well, a series of people being victimized, and need to be saved, then that's what will likely happen unless explicitly illustrated as otherwise.

I have never seen any date given for the fall of the Silver Millenium. Besides, its name just means it lasted a thousand years. The thousand year interval is insignificant, IMO.

If I remember correctly, the anime (the dub, at least) places the existence of the Silver Millennium a thousand years ago. A thousand years from the present, which is a thousand years from the next Silver Millennium (referred to as Crystal Tokyo in the anime, I believe). If there had been only one passage of a thousand years, that'd be negligible. Twice, coincidence. But three distinct time periods divided by a thousand years? And the use of the word "millennium?" It's a pattern that's meant to repeat. You know, kind of like those stories where certain astronomical conditions make for a very rare and auspicious day to be born, and certain things, either good or bad, happen during those distinct periods of time, because of a certain person born at the right (or wrong, depending on how it's viewed) time. The thousand year time frame used in Sailor Moon is significant because it's being used as such a device.

Ah, no. We know that she can do that in the thirtiest century. We cannot conclude that she was already able to do that several centuries before. During the anime timeline, using the silver crystal still risked killing her.

She was able to do it before, at the end of the third and fourth story arcs. Well, in the manga, anyway. The anime seems to localize everything, for some reason. But the potential is there, at least, since we know she can do it later on. It may be that she could have always done it, and it only required the opportunity to do so.

I never did understand why using the ginzuishou too much risks killing her in the anime. Ah, well. At least I have the manga.

Disagree again. It just wasn't part of teenage Usagi's story. However, Sailor Pluto's statement still contradicts.

The first claim doesn't make a lick of sense, since, as I pointed out before, the context had nothing to do with "Usagi's story", and everything to do with Endymion's prerogative to word things in a condensed fashion, for whatever reason he had for it. Really, you might as well be referring to another anime entirely, with that kind of logic. And the second (regarding the reliability of Pluto's "foresight") was debunked. I'm not even sure what Pluto has to do with the Endymion's explanation, or how that's supposed to support the probability of an enemy being the cause behind the "great freeze..." O.o;

Seems that the simplest explanation would be that she had to learn and study how to use the silver crystal on that scale without killing herself, which would doom the world because there were no humans left to enable a rebirth? And it took a long, long time because this is Usagi trying to learn something.

Eh. Within the context of the anime, it's about as good of an explanation as any, considering how inconsistent it already is. XD
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:27 pm

It only seems narrow because I'm reasoning what it is within the proper context. If someone is interpreting the word "calamity" all by itself, then of course they have a license to conclude whatever's most convenient for them.


While in context your interpretation is the likelier I believe, but the meaning isn't actually constrained enough even in context to eliminate the secondary interpretation of it being enemy action. I guess if some one felt in sane enough and understood Japanese, they could look up the original version... but that person certainly wouldn't me, I'm not good enough in Japanese to get a valid meaning. :(

Its occurrence after Galaxia is certain. I mean, what else can it be based on, other than canon? ;p


Canon doesn't definitively say when it was supposed to happen and we can't be sure that with Chibiusa traveling back in time, that she didn't eventually inadvertently cause a time shift that ultimately for instance eliminated the Great Freeze. And if doesn't happen any more, then it is possible it was an event before the end of Sailormoon.

I'll admit that the beginning of the Galaxia arc complicates this interpretation some what though, so it would be much lower in chance then what you are saying. Still, I think it is a potentially valid interpretation based purely on canon. ;p


I personally can't remember, but it'd be a bad idea (plot-wise) since we already have a "great freeze" and princess Kaguya's attempt to put the world on ice. Trying to freeze the world three times is a bit much. Kind of like the same girl in an RPG being kidnapped three times. *Glares at Shirley, from Tales of Legendia*

And, technically, people wouldn't survive being frozen. But we have to believe that they can, in Sailor Moon, because that much is said. Even though I'd rather not. XD


Well there are a few theoretical ways to survive freezing, though the only character who really seems to use it is the Snow Princess, basically if you flash freeze someone through out instantly to extremely low temperatures, then you don't actually accrue the normally fatal damage in freezing and thus even with current science there would be a small chance of reviving you, never mind magical recovery means.
Though that brings up a second potential canon method I suppose, even if you froze some one the stupid damaging way, who is to say that the Guinzuisho couldn't fix it during the unfreezing process?

So basically I guess what ultimately matters is whether the people get frozen cold enough that they won't decay any further any more, until some one comes by to resurrect them I guess.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:13 pm

While in context your interpretation is the likelier I believe, but the meaning isn't actually constrained enough even in context to eliminate the secondary interpretation of it being enemy action. I guess if some one felt in sane enough and understood Japanese, they could look up the original version... but that person certainly wouldn't me, I'm not good enough in Japanese to get a valid meaning.

Yeah, the dub can't be completely trusted. But what I'm trying to reason is that, had it been an enemy, what would have been said would have been something along the lines of, "an enemy attacked and managed to freeze the entire world," in the same way as the Dark Moon was said to have been responsible for what happened to the world in the future, rather than saying that it was a "great calamity" and leaving it at that. Or even saying, "a great calamity caused by a new enemy," would have sufficed.

Canon doesn't definitively say when it was supposed to happen and we can't be sure that with Chibiusa traveling back in time, that she didn't eventually inadvertently cause a time shift that ultimately for instance eliminated the Great Freeze. And if doesn't happen any more, then it is possible it was an event before the end of Sailormoon.

I'll admit that the beginning of the Galaxia arc complicates this interpretation some what though, so it would be much lower in chance then what you are saying. Still, I think it is a potentially valid interpretation based purely on canon. ;p

So you're saying that something that didn't happen, that could have happened, but didn't because canon events changed things (and, thus, whatever didn't happen couldn't be considered canon), has potential validity? XD;;

Well there are a few theoretical ways to survive freezing, though the only character who really seems to use it is the Snow Princess, basically if you flash freeze someone through out instantly to extremely low temperatures, then you don't actually accrue the normally fatal damage in freezing and thus even with current science there would be a small chance of reviving you, never mind magical recovery means.
Though that brings up a second potential canon method I suppose, even if you froze some one the stupid damaging way, who is to say that the Guinzuisho couldn't fix it during the unfreezing process?

So basically I guess what ultimately matters is whether the people get frozen cold enough that they won't decay any further any more, until some one comes by to resurrect them I guess.

I think I see something, here. Everyone freezes, including the senshi, and they all die. The senshi are reborn somewhere, either on another world as babies or manifest a new body (as it was before), somewhere else, where their star seed had moved to, around the dawn of the thirtieth century, then return to Earth and fix it up.

What? What kind of person do you take me for? XD Now you're welcome to find a fault in what I'm proposing. ;p
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:33 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:There's much more to the story than that. ;/ Usagi may be the main character, and thus she's often at the center of the action, but the story's not told from her point of view only; and certainly what we know of the other characters isn't from her observations, rather than our own. And that's the point: she is not telling the story, and she, herself, is not the story. After all, the main plot of the story revolves around protecting the Earth from baddies, where she, along with other senshi, act as the guardians.


An animated series or manga doesn't have to be completely from the point of view of the protagonist to be about said protagonist's adventures. And while the common theme might be defending the world from evil, the story is firmly centred on the life and actions of Usagi, even if the spotlight shifts to one of the support characters during some scenes.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The other events mentioned are, thus, relevant to the story.


Oh, certainly. But can they be told in a way that Usagi can do something interesting to watch in there, without derailing the plot or taking up too much time? If not, well, the show is called 'Sailor Moon', so these events just aren't important enough to show or mention in detail.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Just because their bodies are expendable doesn't mean that they died. ;/ Can die, yes; did die, no.


Well, the default assumption is that everything that lives eventually dies, particularly humans.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It doesn't because Pluto was wrong. Chaos, remember? That's the greatest enemy. Shows how much she knows. Even in the final story arc itself, Galaxia was second fiddle to Chaos.


Pluto wasn't wrong. Both were functionally the same at the time, with Chaos possessing Galaxia and all.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The point was that they died, by either sacrificing themselves or being killed by the enemy, and that there was no such case that any one of them ever died because they lived in peace and got to die for living as long as their body would allow. I made this point to argue against the possibility that they lived until an old age and were reborn.


Well, I must have missed that point because it doesn't actually support your position. Just because the senshi aren't shown to ever die from old age doesn't mean they can't. What you are saying is that they are, in fact, doomed to never live a peaceful and happy life, because they are predestined to die in some battle before they can. Not only does this not logically follow, it is also depressing and goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:To elaborate on the first bit that I said to Quickshot, it's about the context. It wasn't about Usagi's story. I don't know how you drew that conclusion. It was about Endymion getting them all up to speed with a brief telling of the events that led up to their current situation.


You misunderstood. With 'Usagi's story', I mean the life and adventures of Usagi, as presented by the Sailor Moon anime, not any in-character dialogue.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Considering how often people get caught in these situations, and thus need to be freed (just about every episode, really), Ockham's razor dictates that the easiest explanation was that they were not saved from being frozen on the planet. If the series is, well, a series of people being victimized, and need to be saved, then that's what will likely happen unless explicitly illustrated as otherwise.


Fair enough.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:If I remember correctly, the anime (the dub, at least) places the existence of the Silver Millennium a thousand years ago. A thousand years from the present, which is a thousand years from the next Silver Millennium (referred to as Crystal Tokyo in the anime, I believe). If there had been only one passage of a thousand years, that'd be negligible. Twice, coincidence. But three distinct time periods divided by a thousand years? And the use of the word "millennium?" It's a pattern that's meant to repeat. You know, kind of like those stories where certain astronomical conditions make for a very rare and auspicious day to be born, and certain things, either good or bad, happen during those distinct periods of time, because of a certain person born at the right (or wrong, depending on how it's viewed) time. The thousand year time frame used in Sailor Moon is significant because it's being used as such a device.


Problem: the Silver Millenium being a thousand years ago doesn't make sense. There would be records and legends about it, and we have no indication that remembered history in the Sailor Moon universe is any different from our own.

Second Problem: 'Millenium' may just have been a name, possibly chosen in relation to some phrophecised 'thousand years of peace' or somesuch. I think that's from somewhere in the bible originally, but I'm not sure. In any case, people are fond of saying that their realm will last a thousand years - see the nazis as an example. Thus, I tend to see the 'Millenium' as symbolic, rather than a precise indication of time.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:She was able to do it before, at the end of the third and fourth story arcs. Well, in the manga, anyway. The anime seems to localize everything, for some reason. But the potential is there, at least, since we know she can do it later on. It may be that she could have always done it, and it only required the opportunity to do so.


I'm not particularly familiar with the manga, but I remember something about the ending...
Ah, here: http://manga.animea.net/sailor-moon-cha ... ge-24.html
Wouldn't that mean that the revived sailor senshi were sent directly to the 30th century, thus explaining why they weren't around to prevent the great freeze?

Of course, this doesn't work in the anime, as we saw them back in Tokyo.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I never did understand why using the ginzuishou too much risks killing her in the anime. Ah, well. At least I have the manga.


I much, much prefer the anime, even with all its plotholes, due to its humour and more detailed and likeable personalities and fleshed-out villains. It kills the user because otherwise it's just overpowered compared to everything else. The power levels are much lower all around.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The first claim doesn't make a lick of sense, since, as I pointed out before, the context had nothing to do with "Usagi's story", and everything to do with Endymion's prerogative to word things in a condensed fashion, for whatever reason he had for it. Really, you might as well be referring to another anime entirely, with that kind of logic. And the second (regarding the reliability of Pluto's "foresight") was debunked. I'm not even sure what Pluto has to do with the Endymion's explanation, or how that's supposed to support the probability of an enemy being the cause behind the "great freeze..." O.o;


Already addressed before.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:51 pm

Yeah, the dub can't be completely trusted. But what I'm trying to reason is that, had it been an enemy, what would have been said would have been something along the lines of, "an enemy attacked and managed to freeze the entire world," in the same way as the Dark Moon was said to have been responsible for what happened to the world in the future, rather than saying that it was a "great calamity" and leaving it at that. Or even saying, "a great calamity caused by a new enemy," would have sufficed.


While that would be the sensible thing to do when explaining such, we have no guarantee that the people of the future want to truly explain everything that happens, actually they don't. Considering they never do warn about the Death Busters or anything else that might happen after it. As such, we can't be assured they'd spell it out in such detail and as such while a less likely interpretation, it is still a possible interpretation.


So you're saying that something that didn't happen, that could have happened, but didn't because canon events changed things (and, thus, whatever didn't happen couldn't be considered canon), has potential validity? XD;;



Actually I said they might have happened, we really can't be sure. Time travel complicates things rather horrendously really, though I'm not really putting this forward as the most likely possibility or even all to likely at all, so I'm not sure what the issue is. Unless you think it just can't possibly be true at all, well I'll give you that your interpretation seems most sensible, as long as we assume the future didn't lie.


I think I see something, here. Everyone freezes, including the senshi, and they all die. The senshi are reborn somewhere, either on another world as babies or manifest a new body (as it was before), somewhere else, where their star seed had moved to, around the dawn of the thirtieth century, then return to Earth and fix it up.

What? What kind of person do you take me for? XD Now you're welcome to find a fault in what I'm proposing. ;p


That actually sounds fairly plausible and would allow for a natural calamity, good thinking. :)
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:12 pm

EDIT: I see your post, Quickshot, but I'm getting really tired and really, really hungry. I hate the shakes. X_X But I don't think I have anything to add, anyway, since I see nothing to argue with. Yay for us! :D

An animated series or manga doesn't have to be completely from the point of view of the protagonist to be about said protagonist's adventures. And while the common theme might be defending the world from evil, the story is firmly centred on the life and actions of Usagi, even if the spotlight shifts to one of the support characters during some scenes.

You're straying from the actual argument. For one, when did I ever use "completely", or any word like it? When did I ever suggest any absolutes?

What we are, are all-seeing observers: in that we are shown everything that we need to see (what the "powers that be" decided as such, anyway). What we know and see is, in great supply, provided by following Usagi, yes. But the story itself is not filtered through her, but weaved in and around her, along with everyone and everything else.

So, let's get back on track. Basically, what you're saying has nothing to do with whether the "great freeze" happened before Galaxia or not. In fact, I don't even know how it's relevant. ;/ At least, I don't know how it can be argued that Endymion's conveyance of information, and its contents, means that it could have happened before Galaxia, which is opposite of my position, which I've already established in enough length.

Oh, certainly. But can they be told in a way that Usagi can do something interesting to watch in there, without derailing the plot or taking up too much time? If not, well, the show is called 'Sailor Moon', so these events just aren't important enough to show or mention in detail.

I still don't see what you're getting at with this. ;/

Well, the default assumption is that everything that lives eventually dies, particularly humans.

Honestly. I just don't understand the point you're trying to make, within the context of the argument. Even though you later show no clear opposition to Ockham's razor, with "fair enough," which answers this with the least amount of assumptions. And that's key.

Pluto wasn't wrong. Both were functionally the same at the time, with Chaos possessing Galaxia and all.

It's still wrong. "Functionally" is not synonymous with "in reality." You don't call a puppeteer a puppet, do you? So why should we call Chaos, Galaxia? And just to bring my point home... If she can see into the future, because she's a guardian of time, then it only begs to reason that placing events in chronological order would make sense, and thus the last enemy, in reality, would be Death Phantom. And, no, the time travel doesn't change that, because all that it means is that Usagi faces the same enemy twice, at different times in her life. Even if not directly, she was attacked by an enemy force in the thirtieth century, which is, without a doubt, after Galaxia.

Well, I must have missed that point because it doesn't actually support your position. Just because the senshi aren't shown to ever die from old age doesn't mean they can't. What you are saying is that they are, in fact, doomed to never live a peaceful and happy life, because they are predestined to die in some battle before they can. Not only does this not logically follow, it is also depressing and goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show.

It supports my position just fine; and logically, to boot. Again, you said "fair enough" to my ultimate reasoning for it, rather than refute it. Beyond that, I never said that they can't, but that the information imparted by Endymion doesn't suggest anything of the sort happening. And that such an occurrence has never happened in the series, while all of the struggling, death and sacrifice has. I honestly don't know how much more clear I can make that.

And if you think depressing stuff goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show, then are you sure that you've watched Sailor Moon? There's plenty of pain and suffering in the series to go around, despite the good endings that tends to follow. But that's drama in general, for you.

You misunderstood. With 'Usagi's story', I mean the life and adventures of Usagi, as presented by the Sailor Moon anime, not any in-character dialogue.

We're talking about the life and times of the Earth and its people, regarding the time-travelers' future, as it's told by Endymion, not the "life and adventures of Usagi." It's no wonder I'm losing you, because you're going right off of the tracks. It's about what Endymion said and what the vague-ish parts mean, in regard to things relevant to the "great freeze." That's what we're arguing about. Any perspective outside of that context is irrelevant, because it doesn't apply.

Problem: the Silver Millenium being a thousand years ago doesn't make sense. There would be records and legends about it, and we have no indication that remembered history in the Sailor Moon universe is any different from our own.

Don't shoot the messenger, now. I'm just saying what I remember from the dub. I don't think it makes any sense, either, like I do a lot of things in the Sailor Moon anime. But what else can I do, other than work with what the anime gives me, you know?

Second Problem: 'Millenium' may just have been a name, possibly chosen in relation to some phrophecised 'thousand years of peace' or somesuch. I think that's from somewhere in the bible originally, but I'm not sure. In any case, people are fond of saying that their realm will last a thousand years - see the nazis as an example. Thus, I tend to see the 'Millenium' as symbolic, rather than a precise indication of time.

Even by suggesting the possibility of it being connected to a prophecy, or a symbol, is making it a device, and thus significant. In fact, what I was pointing out is, basically, a symbol. A thousand years used multiple times for multiple reasons isn't just a coincidence. It's meant to symbolize something, to impress something. Speaking of the bible, one number that's repeated often enough, during significant events, is forty. It was the amount of days that it rained, during the great flood. It was the amount of days that Moses spent on Mt. Sinai (not once, but twice, I believe). And it was also the amount of days that Jesus spent fasting in the desert/wilderness. Coincidence? Not likely. Intended? Most likely. It's like the number three, seven and thirteen, which are often used, in various ways, to convey some kind of significant message. Or just to indicate that what it's attached to is significant in some way.

I'm not particularly familiar with the manga, but I remember something about the ending...
Ah, here: http://manga.animea.net/sailor-moon-cha ... ge-24.html
Wouldn't that mean that the revived sailor senshi were sent directly to the 30th century, thus explaining why they weren't around to prevent the great freeze?

Of course, this doesn't work in the anime, as we saw them back in Tokyo.

You could probably get away with that. The manga has the same inconsistency, so... There's nothing to do with a contradiction but to choose which side of the conflict to chop away and which one to embrace. Or, of course, just ignore it entirely, like it doesn't exist. Darn eyesores. ;p

I much, much prefer the anime, even with all its plotholes, due to its humour and more detailed and likeable personalities and fleshed-out villains. It kills the user because otherwise it's just overpowered compared to everything else. The power levels are much lower all around.

A matter of taste, I guess. I think the characters are better developed, and have more depth, in the manga. There's not much humor, but I'm fine with that since it's a serious story, about serious topics, of life and death, love and hate. And I like how there aren't much of anything in the way of holes. Oh, there are some contradictions, but they're all understandable, at least.

EDIT: oh, and it's not my intention to be difficult, but I really don't understand what your reasoning is. I mean, as far as I'm able to gather, it seems like you're establishing a larger, redundant context, without really applying it to mean anything, as far as I can tell, in relation to what Endymion relates. If we could clear this up, it should be clear sailing.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:30 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:EDIT: oh, and it's not my intention to be difficult, but I really don't understand what your reasoning is. I mean, as far as I'm able to gather, it seems like you're establishing a larger, redundant context, without really applying it to mean anything, as far as I can tell, in relation to what Endymion relates. If we could clear this up, it should be clear sailing.


Okay, let's clear some things up, because otherwise I'd just be repeating myself without getting anywhere:

My intention: to show that there could very well have been major, important events in the anime timeline that we, as the viewers, never learn about. This is mainly done to invalidate your point that the senshi could not have died because we would have been told about it, or that there couldn't have been other major events that we never learned about.

Thus, I'm looking at Endymion's infodump from the metalevel of the outside observer who knows that this is an anime character speaking to convey some information to the viewers of the anime.

It is, therefore, important to consider the scope and general tone of the anime, that being the teenage Usagi's adventurs as she fights for love and against alien invaders. Mentioning the exact events that led to the Great Freeze are:
1. Outside of this scope, as they happen outside of the time covered by the anime.
2. Possibly also outside of this scope, because she might not have significantly participate in it.

With that firmly in mind, Endymion doesn't mention any other important events because we, the viewers, do not need to know about them, because: the anime would not treat them in detail anyway, the given background is already sufficient for the show, and doing more would limit options for hypothetical later seasons.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:What we are, are all-seeing observers: in that we are shown everything that we need to see (what the "powers that be" decided as such, anyway). What we know and see is, in great supply, provided by following Usagi, yes. But the story itself is not filtered through her, but weaved in and around her, along with everyone and everything else.


All-seeing doesn't mean all-knowing. We are only shown things within the previously defined scope, nothing else.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:, let's get back on track. Basically, what you're saying has nothing to do with whether the "great freeze" happened before Galaxia or not. In fact, I don't even know how it's relevant. ;/ At least, I don't know how it can be argued that Endymion's conveyance of information, and its contents, means that it could have happened before Galaxia, which is opposite of my position, which I've already established in enough length.


Huh? I think you have confused me with someone else. It's clear that the Great Freeze couldn't have happened before Galaxia, on account of there being a Galaxia arc.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Honestly. I just don't understand the point you're trying to make, within the context of the argument. Even though you later show no clear opposition to Ockham's razor, with "fair enough," which answers this with the least amount of assumptions. And that's key.


The point: the senshi could have died of old age.
I answered 'fair enough' because it fits the themes of the show.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It's still wrong. "Functionally" is not synonymous with "in reality." You don't call a puppeteer a puppet, do you? So why should we call Chaos, Galaxia?


Stop the nitpicking, please. There's nothing wrong with calling the puppeteer a puppet if the puppeteer is inhabiting the puppet and indistinguishable from it for all intents and purposes. In the anime, Chaos is beaten the moment Galaxia is.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And just to bring my point home... If she can see into the future, because she's a guardian of time, then it only begs to reason that placing events in chronological order would make sense, and thus the last enemy, in reality, would be Death Phantom. And, no, the time travel doesn't change that, because all that it means is that Usagi faces the same enemy twice, at different times in her life. Even if not directly, she was attacked by an enemy force in the thirtieth century, which is, without a doubt, after Galaxia.


IF they are going to repeat past mistakes, that is. Besides, I always believed that Pluto's foreknowledge stems from the fact that she's a time-traveller from the future, not any predictive abilities.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It supports my position just fine; and logically, to boot. Again, you said "fair enough" to my ultimate reasoning for it, rather than refute it. Beyond that, I never said that they can't, but that the information imparted by Endymion doesn't suggest anything of the sort happening. And that such an occurrence has never happened in the series, while all of the struggling, death and sacrifice has. I honestly don't know how much more clear I can make that.


Actually, logic does not support this. You are assuming that a violent end will happen again just because some have happened in the past. Just by introducing this assumption, you are violating Occam's Razor - use the least amount of assumptions possible. Thus, OR supports nothing happening.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if you think depressing stuff goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show, then are you sure that you've watched Sailor Moon? There's plenty of pain and suffering in the series to go around, despite the good endings that tends to follow. But that's drama in general, for you.


Sailor Moon is NOT a depressing show. It's all about how love and hope and peace will win in the end. You will not be able to convince me otherwise. The manga is a bit grimmer.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:We're talking about the life and times of the Earth and its people, regarding the time-travelers' future, as it's told by Endymion, not the "life and adventures of Usagi." It's no wonder I'm losing you, because you're going right off of the tracks. It's about what Endymion said and what the vague-ish parts mean, in regard to things relevant to the "great freeze." That's what we're arguing about. Any perspective outside of that context is irrelevant, because it doesn't apply.


I pointed my reasoning for why it's important to look at the greater picture out at the beginning.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Don't shoot the messenger, now. I'm just saying what I remember from the dub. I don't think it makes any sense, either, like I do a lot of things in the Sailor Moon anime. But what else can I do, other than work with what the anime gives me, you know?


Well, you could acknowledge that the dub has problems, and stop reading anything into the 1000 year intervals, I guess :wink:

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Even by suggesting the possibility of it being connected to a prophecy, or a symbol, is making it a device, and thus significant. In fact, what I was pointing out is, basically, a symbol. A thousand years used multiple times for multiple reasons isn't just a coincidence. It's meant to symbolize something, to impress something. Speaking of the bible, one number that's repeated often enough, during significant events, is forty. It was the amount of days that it rained, during the great flood. It was the amount of days that Moses spent on Mt. Sinai (not once, but twice, I believe). And it was also the amount of days that Jesus spent fasting in the desert/wilderness. Coincidence? Not likely. Intended? Most likely. It's like the number three, seven and thirteen, which are often used, in various ways, to convey some kind of significant message. Or just to indicate that what it's attached to is significant in some way.


Okay, I'll drop this point, because I'm not really interested in it (and don't quite understand why you are). I think you may be arguing that things in the Sailor Moon universe tend to happen in a cyclic manner, but to that, I'd respond that Usagi broke the vicious cycle when she defeated Galaxia/Chaos.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:24 am

I think I can sum up my response into something short...er. (Looking it over, it seems I've failed. ;/ ) Which is a good thing since I was planning to go to bed (finally) after checking the forum. It's fun trying to keep your face from playing on the keyboard.

Anyway, you still didn't get my position. In fact, according to what you're saying, I'm using the exact same methodology as you're using to argue with. Allow me to elaborate. For one, I never made it a simple issue of "they could never die of old age because they never did before", even though that is supposed to be correct. That's because I gave plenty of examples for how the senshi tend to live their lives, which usually ends in a death brought upon by an enemy and sacrifice (and possibly another incident, though I can't recall one happening), since their duty puts them in a position where they are more likely to die that way instead of peacefully, at an old age or not. And since a senshi's special star seed makes them immortal, dying peacefully and/or at an old age really isn't an option. Unless they toss themselves into the galaxy cauldron to be destroyed, they're going to live long enough to encounter an unfriendly that's after their lives.

But, basically, the entire series is about restoration, not intervention. Just about every episode has at least one person/animals victimized and saved, rather than being prevented from being victimized and thus aren't in any need of saving. Most of the intervention that occurs is only after some amount of damage and victimization has been done, and only in preventing the ultimate goals that the baddies plotted, which they always manage to get into full swing before they're stopped. It's something like 1% of the volume of incidents that are actually prevented. Thus, the 99% left over says that people would have ended up frozen on the Earth. In the same way someone gets their energy drained rather than it being prevented, turned into a monster rather than it being prevented, having their star seeds turn into phages instead of it being prevented, et cetera.

So, you see, I'm running on fewer assumptions, which are all based on the reality of the series.

To finish this post up:

Huh? I think you have confused me with someone else. It's clear that the Great Freeze couldn't have happened before Galaxia, on account of there being a Galaxia arc.

I think you're right. Sorry. XD 'S'what I get for doing this in my fatigued state.

The point: the senshi could have died of old age.

Since I mentioned it before, I just wanted to restate that a senshi probably wouldn't die of old age unless through unnatural means.

I answered 'fair enough' because it fits the themes of the show.

Then what are we arguing about? XD

Stop the nitpicking, please. There's nothing wrong with calling the puppeteer a puppet if the puppeteer is inhabiting the puppet and indistinguishable from it for all intents and purposes. In the anime, Chaos is beaten the moment Galaxia is.

I'm not nitpicking. This is fact. Reality. Chaos is beaten when Galaxia is beaten because she's a medium, not a willing participant. She's used as an extension of Chaos. If we went by your logic, setting the puppet aflame would also set the puppeteer aflame. Or killing the messenger in a far-off land somehow kills the person who was conveying the message through them. To say that Galaxia and Chaos are the same person would do her a great disservice, since, despite appearances, they are separate, but close, entities. The wires/strings can be hard to see, but they're there.

IF they are going to repeat past mistakes, that is. Besides, I always believed that Pluto's foreknowledge stems from the fact that she's a time-traveller from the future, not any predictive abilities.

As far as I know, Pluto is supposed to guard the time gate, not use her powers over time to see what is yet to be. There were three taboos that she wasn't supposed to break, and the two relevant ones were: not to travel through time, and to not abandon her post at the time gate. I don't think the latter of the two holds up later in the series, but I'm willing to bet that Neo Queen Serenity understands the dangers of time-travel and would still uphold that taboo. But that's just my opinion.

Well, you could acknowledge that the dub has problems, and stop reading anything into the 1000 year intervals, I guess

I suppose. I already have enough material, and better material, to back my argument. Mwa-ha-ha!

I think you may be arguing that things in the Sailor Moon universe tend to happen in a cyclic manner, but to that, I'd respond that Usagi broke the vicious cycle when she defeated Galaxia/Chaos.

Chaos will return. Where there is light, there is dark. The light calls to the dark, and the dark calls to the light. Dun-dun-dunnnn! @_@

I think that covers everything that needs to be covered. Time for some major shut-eye.

And if you still contest my argument, we might as well agree to disagree at this point. You know, to save ourselves any more needless grief. It's better to break it off recognizing that we each regard our arguments as being equally valid than continuing down the road of mutual destruction. Unless we're there already. I didn't even get to see my life flash before my eyes. Maaaaaan... What a bummer. ;/
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:41 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: And since a senshi's special star seed makes them immortal


I think this is the root of our disagreement. I don't remember any evidence in the anime that the starseed gives them an infinite lifespan ('immortal'). They could just have normal human lifespans and be reborn.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I'm not nitpicking. This is fact. Reality. Chaos is beaten when Galaxia is beaten because she's a medium, not a willing participant. She's used as an extension of Chaos. If we went by your logic, setting the puppet aflame would also set the puppeteer aflame. Or killing the messenger in a far-off land somehow kills the person who was conveying the message through them. To say that Galaxia and Chaos are the same person would do her a great disservice, since, despite appearances, they are separate, but close, entities. The wires/strings can be hard to see, but they're there.


Yes, but it's an irrelevant fact. There is a difference between Chaos and Galaxia, sure, but it's a meaningless one as far as what Pluto said is concerned. Beating Galaxia WAS also beating Chaos. Look, Pluto was talking to Usagi. When Usagi beats Galaxia, the last fight is won, and thus, what Pluto said about this being the last great enemy was right from Usagi's and her point of view.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if you still contest my argument, we might as well agree to disagree at this point. You know, to save ourselves any more needless grief. It's better to break it off recognizing that we each regard our arguments as being equally valid than continuing down the road of mutual destruction. Unless we're there already. I didn't even get to see my life flash before my eyes. Maaaaaan... What a bummer. ;/


Well, it seems to be a definition of immortality issue, mostly. The 'can't permanently die' part we agree on, but the additional 'won't die unless through violent means' we don't.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:42 am

I don't recall for sure any more, but I think the age thing was derived from the manga, where people could get to be a thousand years old in Crystal Tokyo.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:59 pm

Pusakuronu wrote:I think this is the root of our disagreement. I don't remember any evidence in the anime that the starseed gives them an infinite lifespan ('immortal'). They could just have normal human lifespans and be reborn.

Consider Galaxia, then. She's still alive and looking young since the Sailor Wars.

Yes, but it's an irrelevant fact. There is a difference between Chaos and Galaxia, sure, but it's a meaningless one as far as what Pluto said is concerned. Beating Galaxia WAS also beating Chaos. Look, Pluto was talking to Usagi. When Usagi beats Galaxia, the last fight is won, and thus, what Pluto said about this being the last great enemy was right from Usagi's and her point of view.

Even if we can't agree on that, the fact remains that Pluto is still wrong. Thirtieth century Dark Moon/Death Phantom versus Galaxia in the twentieth century, remember? What she should have said was something along the lines of: "Now that Galaxia is defeated, you just need to go along with what's supposed to happen with the Dark Moon/Death Phantom and all will be hunky-dory."

Well, it seems to be a definition of immortality issue, mostly. The 'can't permanently die' part we agree on, but the additional 'won't die unless through violent means' we don't.

No, it's not "won't die unless through violent means." You're still misunderstanding, even after I offered an exception. There's a difference between the star seeds that your average people have and the true star seeds that senshi have. Their duty is to defend the celestial object that they represent, even when said celestial object doesn't sustain any life. Would it make more sense to get old and die, then leave their celestial object unprotected for the duration that it takes for them to be reborn and grow up to an appropriate age, or to keep an eternal vigil by being immortal, and thus not leaving their celestial object vulnerable due to an absence that could be avoided?

Quickshot0 wrote:I don't recall for sure any more, but I think the age thing was derived from the manga, where people could get to be a thousand years old in Crystal Tokyo.

That was for the average person, yeah. But the senshi themselves are immortal. If for no better example, there was Sailor Cosmos, who lived long enough to fight (sailor) Chaos over and over again, which probably means a long time since Usagi's mother never faced Chaos since the time that she arrived in the Milky Way Galaxy, which was before princess Kaguya's first attempt to freeze the Earth over. (And I come to that conclusion because she would have lost against Chaos, if she couldn't even handle one incarnation of it (Metallia).)
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Zwzn » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:31 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:
And, no, Pluto wouldn't tell her to wait because she's a time spy and knows what's best for the future. I wish that fanon idea would get shot, chopped up, burned, and then be scattered to the four winds. >_<

In the anime Sailor Pluto out right states she is from Crystal Tokyo, and there to ensure the future seen in season 2 happens. Without Sailor Pluto and Chibi-Usa events would have happened very differently in season 2, 3, and 4. We see no sign things are not happening as they "should", and get subtle hints Crystal Tokyo is in the cards.

In the Manga Pluto dies in Crystal Tokyo at the end of the Dark Moon story line, and is reborn in the past.

Deal with it.

Zwzn wrote:Given that in the anime Nehellenia caused a great freeze when she invaded Helios's world, and the fact season 5 starts before season 4 ends I think there may be a connection.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Not so much a connection as bad decisions by those responsible for producing the anime.


That is an out of universe explanation so it isn't relevant to this topic.
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