Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The answer to that is easy: everything of importance that happened, and made it possible for the story to be what it was, was shown to us.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:No, they're all human to begin with, regardless of what moon or planet they're from. What makes them different is their star seeds. While their bodies are expendable, they live forever as senshi, since star seeds can only be destroyed in the galaxy cauldron, where they were formed. In the manga, before the last story arc, the explanation for anyone being long-lived was due to the power of the ginzuishou. I don't think the age aspect of it ever came up in the anime and, frankly, I'd rather not have to watch through several episodes to find out.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:But, let's put it like this: which sounds right, within the context of the Sailor Moon universe?
1: after peaceful lives, absent of any strife, the senshi die, and just happen to be reborn when they're needed again.
2: after a dramatic defeat, or a great struggle that seems endless, the senshi regroup in the next life to conquer the foe that had, ultimately, been victorious after their sacrifice.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The answer is clear. Such a thing happened... at least five times. (All of the senshi, plus Endymion, at the very beginning. All of the senshi, after the defeat of Metallia. Pluto, after sacrificing herself to stop time. Saturn, after destroying Pharoah 90. And all of the senshi in the galaxy (at least; I'm not sure about any other star seeds) after Chaos was defeated by Usagi in the galaxy cauldron.) Dying peacefully never happened. In reality, sure, such an idea is a possibility. But it wouldn't in this universe because that's just not how Sailor Moon stories are told.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The absence of people being mentioned means that "earth" was likely meant to include its inhabitants as well. I mean, with such a "great calamity", one would expect someone to mention what happened to the people, if they had been spared from what happened: "Fortunately, we were able to relocate the people of earth in time, et cetera, et cetera."
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:As for how long a "long, long time" is, it's more likely closer to one-thousand years than a hundred. Not only because there was a Silver Millennium (in the past and future), but for the fact that the story drops at the end of the twentieth century (a millennium) and picks back up at the thirtieth century (another millennium). It could have been any other date, one of nine other numbers that weren't zero, but they weren't. Especially in the anime is this number made more significant, since the Silver Millennium of the past was said to have existed/ended one-thousand years ago. It's not a number of coincidence; it's design.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The problem with that is, by the time it's possible for the "great freeze" to happen, there's really nothing that Usagi can't do with the power of the ginzuishou. We know this because the world in the future, after being all but destroyed by the Dark Moon (including the inhabitants), is completely reversed.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if it was because of an enemy, something like that would have been mentioned as the cause of the delay. Again, the mistake being made, here, is thinking that it's alright to make up things just because an explanation isn't specific enough, and coming up with them without any basis for what has happened in the story before.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote: the condition of the sun (which, in all likelihood, can also be fixed with the ginzuishou; though I doubt it'd be an issue with the sun since it's never mentioned and over its lifespan its condition has been fairly consistent).
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The only remaining problem, as it has always been, is why it's not until the thirtieth century that Usagi is able to fix things up.
Quickshot0 wrote:Hmm, I see Crescent, I'll have to note your interpretation of 'calamity' is a bit narrow though.
So I suppose it being after Galaxia becomes fairly likely then, based purely on cannon, though I'm not as definitively sure as you are I guess.
On a side note, did Nehelenia in the end really kind of freeze the planet up for a little while? I guess it is a possible out come from making the world dark..., though I'm not sure the people would survive that process....
Pusakuronu wrote:I do in principle agree with that. However, only everything of importance to the story, that being Usagi struggling with romance and growing up while fighting evil, was shown to us. Other events that are not particularly relevant to that story are barely mentioned. The Great Freeze itself is one example. Another would be the background of the Silver Millenium, or the fact that the existence of other life-bearing planets was only mentioned in the fifth season, when it became relevant due to Galaxia.
Their expendable bodies dying is enough to qualify as 'death' for me.
Option 2 conflicts with Pluto's statement that Galaxia was the last great enemy. In addition, see below.
I disagree with your way of counting. There was only one complete defeat, that being the end of the Silver Millenium. In all the other cases, at least one senshi (Usagi) survived and pushed the silver crystal reset button, thus making them victories, not defeats. The fall of the Silver Millenium is the only instance of the entire sailor team being wiped out.
Unless it would have been unimportant to Usagi's story. Which it was.
I have never seen any date given for the fall of the Silver Millenium. Besides, its name just means it lasted a thousand years. The thousand year interval is insignificant, IMO.
Ah, no. We know that she can do that in the thirtiest century. We cannot conclude that she was already able to do that several centuries before. During the anime timeline, using the silver crystal still risked killing her.
Disagree again. It just wasn't part of teenage Usagi's story. However, Sailor Pluto's statement still contradicts.
Seems that the simplest explanation would be that she had to learn and study how to use the silver crystal on that scale without killing herself, which would doom the world because there were no humans left to enable a rebirth? And it took a long, long time because this is Usagi trying to learn something.
It only seems narrow because I'm reasoning what it is within the proper context. If someone is interpreting the word "calamity" all by itself, then of course they have a license to conclude whatever's most convenient for them.
Its occurrence after Galaxia is certain. I mean, what else can it be based on, other than canon? ;p
I personally can't remember, but it'd be a bad idea (plot-wise) since we already have a "great freeze" and princess Kaguya's attempt to put the world on ice. Trying to freeze the world three times is a bit much. Kind of like the same girl in an RPG being kidnapped three times. *Glares at Shirley, from Tales of Legendia*
And, technically, people wouldn't survive being frozen. But we have to believe that they can, in Sailor Moon, because that much is said. Even though I'd rather not. XD
While in context your interpretation is the likelier I believe, but the meaning isn't actually constrained enough even in context to eliminate the secondary interpretation of it being enemy action. I guess if some one felt in sane enough and understood Japanese, they could look up the original version... but that person certainly wouldn't me, I'm not good enough in Japanese to get a valid meaning.
Canon doesn't definitively say when it was supposed to happen and we can't be sure that with Chibiusa traveling back in time, that she didn't eventually inadvertently cause a time shift that ultimately for instance eliminated the Great Freeze. And if doesn't happen any more, then it is possible it was an event before the end of Sailormoon.
I'll admit that the beginning of the Galaxia arc complicates this interpretation some what though, so it would be much lower in chance then what you are saying. Still, I think it is a potentially valid interpretation based purely on canon. ;p
Well there are a few theoretical ways to survive freezing, though the only character who really seems to use it is the Snow Princess, basically if you flash freeze someone through out instantly to extremely low temperatures, then you don't actually accrue the normally fatal damage in freezing and thus even with current science there would be a small chance of reviving you, never mind magical recovery means.
Though that brings up a second potential canon method I suppose, even if you froze some one the stupid damaging way, who is to say that the Guinzuisho couldn't fix it during the unfreezing process?
So basically I guess what ultimately matters is whether the people get frozen cold enough that they won't decay any further any more, until some one comes by to resurrect them I guess.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:There's much more to the story than that. ;/ Usagi may be the main character, and thus she's often at the center of the action, but the story's not told from her point of view only; and certainly what we know of the other characters isn't from her observations, rather than our own. And that's the point: she is not telling the story, and she, herself, is not the story. After all, the main plot of the story revolves around protecting the Earth from baddies, where she, along with other senshi, act as the guardians.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The other events mentioned are, thus, relevant to the story.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Just because their bodies are expendable doesn't mean that they died. ;/ Can die, yes; did die, no.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It doesn't because Pluto was wrong. Chaos, remember? That's the greatest enemy. Shows how much she knows. Even in the final story arc itself, Galaxia was second fiddle to Chaos.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The point was that they died, by either sacrificing themselves or being killed by the enemy, and that there was no such case that any one of them ever died because they lived in peace and got to die for living as long as their body would allow. I made this point to argue against the possibility that they lived until an old age and were reborn.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:To elaborate on the first bit that I said to Quickshot, it's about the context. It wasn't about Usagi's story. I don't know how you drew that conclusion. It was about Endymion getting them all up to speed with a brief telling of the events that led up to their current situation.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Considering how often people get caught in these situations, and thus need to be freed (just about every episode, really), Ockham's razor dictates that the easiest explanation was that they were not saved from being frozen on the planet. If the series is, well, a series of people being victimized, and need to be saved, then that's what will likely happen unless explicitly illustrated as otherwise.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:If I remember correctly, the anime (the dub, at least) places the existence of the Silver Millennium a thousand years ago. A thousand years from the present, which is a thousand years from the next Silver Millennium (referred to as Crystal Tokyo in the anime, I believe). If there had been only one passage of a thousand years, that'd be negligible. Twice, coincidence. But three distinct time periods divided by a thousand years? And the use of the word "millennium?" It's a pattern that's meant to repeat. You know, kind of like those stories where certain astronomical conditions make for a very rare and auspicious day to be born, and certain things, either good or bad, happen during those distinct periods of time, because of a certain person born at the right (or wrong, depending on how it's viewed) time. The thousand year time frame used in Sailor Moon is significant because it's being used as such a device.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:She was able to do it before, at the end of the third and fourth story arcs. Well, in the manga, anyway. The anime seems to localize everything, for some reason. But the potential is there, at least, since we know she can do it later on. It may be that she could have always done it, and it only required the opportunity to do so.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I never did understand why using the ginzuishou too much risks killing her in the anime. Ah, well. At least I have the manga.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The first claim doesn't make a lick of sense, since, as I pointed out before, the context had nothing to do with "Usagi's story", and everything to do with Endymion's prerogative to word things in a condensed fashion, for whatever reason he had for it. Really, you might as well be referring to another anime entirely, with that kind of logic. And the second (regarding the reliability of Pluto's "foresight") was debunked. I'm not even sure what Pluto has to do with the Endymion's explanation, or how that's supposed to support the probability of an enemy being the cause behind the "great freeze..." O.o;
Yeah, the dub can't be completely trusted. But what I'm trying to reason is that, had it been an enemy, what would have been said would have been something along the lines of, "an enemy attacked and managed to freeze the entire world," in the same way as the Dark Moon was said to have been responsible for what happened to the world in the future, rather than saying that it was a "great calamity" and leaving it at that. Or even saying, "a great calamity caused by a new enemy," would have sufficed.
So you're saying that something that didn't happen, that could have happened, but didn't because canon events changed things (and, thus, whatever didn't happen couldn't be considered canon), has potential validity? XD;;
I think I see something, here. Everyone freezes, including the senshi, and they all die. The senshi are reborn somewhere, either on another world as babies or manifest a new body (as it was before), somewhere else, where their star seed had moved to, around the dawn of the thirtieth century, then return to Earth and fix it up.
What? What kind of person do you take me for? XD Now you're welcome to find a fault in what I'm proposing. ;p
An animated series or manga doesn't have to be completely from the point of view of the protagonist to be about said protagonist's adventures. And while the common theme might be defending the world from evil, the story is firmly centred on the life and actions of Usagi, even if the spotlight shifts to one of the support characters during some scenes.
Oh, certainly. But can they be told in a way that Usagi can do something interesting to watch in there, without derailing the plot or taking up too much time? If not, well, the show is called 'Sailor Moon', so these events just aren't important enough to show or mention in detail.
Well, the default assumption is that everything that lives eventually dies, particularly humans.
Pluto wasn't wrong. Both were functionally the same at the time, with Chaos possessing Galaxia and all.
Well, I must have missed that point because it doesn't actually support your position. Just because the senshi aren't shown to ever die from old age doesn't mean they can't. What you are saying is that they are, in fact, doomed to never live a peaceful and happy life, because they are predestined to die in some battle before they can. Not only does this not logically follow, it is also depressing and goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show.
You misunderstood. With 'Usagi's story', I mean the life and adventures of Usagi, as presented by the Sailor Moon anime, not any in-character dialogue.
Problem: the Silver Millenium being a thousand years ago doesn't make sense. There would be records and legends about it, and we have no indication that remembered history in the Sailor Moon universe is any different from our own.
Second Problem: 'Millenium' may just have been a name, possibly chosen in relation to some phrophecised 'thousand years of peace' or somesuch. I think that's from somewhere in the bible originally, but I'm not sure. In any case, people are fond of saying that their realm will last a thousand years - see the nazis as an example. Thus, I tend to see the 'Millenium' as symbolic, rather than a precise indication of time.
I'm not particularly familiar with the manga, but I remember something about the ending...
Ah, here: http://manga.animea.net/sailor-moon-cha ... ge-24.html
Wouldn't that mean that the revived sailor senshi were sent directly to the 30th century, thus explaining why they weren't around to prevent the great freeze?
Of course, this doesn't work in the anime, as we saw them back in Tokyo.
I much, much prefer the anime, even with all its plotholes, due to its humour and more detailed and likeable personalities and fleshed-out villains. It kills the user because otherwise it's just overpowered compared to everything else. The power levels are much lower all around.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:EDIT: oh, and it's not my intention to be difficult, but I really don't understand what your reasoning is. I mean, as far as I'm able to gather, it seems like you're establishing a larger, redundant context, without really applying it to mean anything, as far as I can tell, in relation to what Endymion relates. If we could clear this up, it should be clear sailing.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:What we are, are all-seeing observers: in that we are shown everything that we need to see (what the "powers that be" decided as such, anyway). What we know and see is, in great supply, provided by following Usagi, yes. But the story itself is not filtered through her, but weaved in and around her, along with everyone and everything else.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:, let's get back on track. Basically, what you're saying has nothing to do with whether the "great freeze" happened before Galaxia or not. In fact, I don't even know how it's relevant. ;/ At least, I don't know how it can be argued that Endymion's conveyance of information, and its contents, means that it could have happened before Galaxia, which is opposite of my position, which I've already established in enough length.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Honestly. I just don't understand the point you're trying to make, within the context of the argument. Even though you later show no clear opposition to Ockham's razor, with "fair enough," which answers this with the least amount of assumptions. And that's key.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It's still wrong. "Functionally" is not synonymous with "in reality." You don't call a puppeteer a puppet, do you? So why should we call Chaos, Galaxia?
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And just to bring my point home... If she can see into the future, because she's a guardian of time, then it only begs to reason that placing events in chronological order would make sense, and thus the last enemy, in reality, would be Death Phantom. And, no, the time travel doesn't change that, because all that it means is that Usagi faces the same enemy twice, at different times in her life. Even if not directly, she was attacked by an enemy force in the thirtieth century, which is, without a doubt, after Galaxia.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It supports my position just fine; and logically, to boot. Again, you said "fair enough" to my ultimate reasoning for it, rather than refute it. Beyond that, I never said that they can't, but that the information imparted by Endymion doesn't suggest anything of the sort happening. And that such an occurrence has never happened in the series, while all of the struggling, death and sacrifice has. I honestly don't know how much more clear I can make that.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if you think depressing stuff goes against the generally optimistic tone of the show, then are you sure that you've watched Sailor Moon? There's plenty of pain and suffering in the series to go around, despite the good endings that tends to follow. But that's drama in general, for you.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:We're talking about the life and times of the Earth and its people, regarding the time-travelers' future, as it's told by Endymion, not the "life and adventures of Usagi." It's no wonder I'm losing you, because you're going right off of the tracks. It's about what Endymion said and what the vague-ish parts mean, in regard to things relevant to the "great freeze." That's what we're arguing about. Any perspective outside of that context is irrelevant, because it doesn't apply.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Don't shoot the messenger, now. I'm just saying what I remember from the dub. I don't think it makes any sense, either, like I do a lot of things in the Sailor Moon anime. But what else can I do, other than work with what the anime gives me, you know?
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Even by suggesting the possibility of it being connected to a prophecy, or a symbol, is making it a device, and thus significant. In fact, what I was pointing out is, basically, a symbol. A thousand years used multiple times for multiple reasons isn't just a coincidence. It's meant to symbolize something, to impress something. Speaking of the bible, one number that's repeated often enough, during significant events, is forty. It was the amount of days that it rained, during the great flood. It was the amount of days that Moses spent on Mt. Sinai (not once, but twice, I believe). And it was also the amount of days that Jesus spent fasting in the desert/wilderness. Coincidence? Not likely. Intended? Most likely. It's like the number three, seven and thirteen, which are often used, in various ways, to convey some kind of significant message. Or just to indicate that what it's attached to is significant in some way.
Huh? I think you have confused me with someone else. It's clear that the Great Freeze couldn't have happened before Galaxia, on account of there being a Galaxia arc.
The point: the senshi could have died of old age.
I answered 'fair enough' because it fits the themes of the show.
Stop the nitpicking, please. There's nothing wrong with calling the puppeteer a puppet if the puppeteer is inhabiting the puppet and indistinguishable from it for all intents and purposes. In the anime, Chaos is beaten the moment Galaxia is.
IF they are going to repeat past mistakes, that is. Besides, I always believed that Pluto's foreknowledge stems from the fact that she's a time-traveller from the future, not any predictive abilities.
Well, you could acknowledge that the dub has problems, and stop reading anything into the 1000 year intervals, I guess
I think you may be arguing that things in the Sailor Moon universe tend to happen in a cyclic manner, but to that, I'd respond that Usagi broke the vicious cycle when she defeated Galaxia/Chaos.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote: And since a senshi's special star seed makes them immortal
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I'm not nitpicking. This is fact. Reality. Chaos is beaten when Galaxia is beaten because she's a medium, not a willing participant. She's used as an extension of Chaos. If we went by your logic, setting the puppet aflame would also set the puppeteer aflame. Or killing the messenger in a far-off land somehow kills the person who was conveying the message through them. To say that Galaxia and Chaos are the same person would do her a great disservice, since, despite appearances, they are separate, but close, entities. The wires/strings can be hard to see, but they're there.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And if you still contest my argument, we might as well agree to disagree at this point. You know, to save ourselves any more needless grief. It's better to break it off recognizing that we each regard our arguments as being equally valid than continuing down the road of mutual destruction. Unless we're there already. I didn't even get to see my life flash before my eyes. Maaaaaan... What a bummer. ;/
Pusakuronu wrote:I think this is the root of our disagreement. I don't remember any evidence in the anime that the starseed gives them an infinite lifespan ('immortal'). They could just have normal human lifespans and be reborn.
Yes, but it's an irrelevant fact. There is a difference between Chaos and Galaxia, sure, but it's a meaningless one as far as what Pluto said is concerned. Beating Galaxia WAS also beating Chaos. Look, Pluto was talking to Usagi. When Usagi beats Galaxia, the last fight is won, and thus, what Pluto said about this being the last great enemy was right from Usagi's and her point of view.
Well, it seems to be a definition of immortality issue, mostly. The 'can't permanently die' part we agree on, but the additional 'won't die unless through violent means' we don't.
Quickshot0 wrote:I don't recall for sure any more, but I think the age thing was derived from the manga, where people could get to be a thousand years old in Crystal Tokyo.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:
And, no, Pluto wouldn't tell her to wait because she's a time spy and knows what's best for the future. I wish that fanon idea would get shot, chopped up, burned, and then be scattered to the four winds. >_<
Zwzn wrote:Given that in the anime Nehellenia caused a great freeze when she invaded Helios's world, and the fact season 5 starts before season 4 ends I think there may be a connection.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Not so much a connection as bad decisions by those responsible for producing the anime.
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