Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

[Crescent Pulsar]

Which is why I don't think he's delusional because he thinks he's Akane's protector, or anything of the ilk. A proper protector, first and foremost, is aware, and attentive, to the needs of the protected. It's a purely selfless role. Ryoga, most of the time, thinks of himself first, before he thinks of Akane. It's always about his feeling for her, and offtimes the delusion that she would respond in kind. He's just being selfish, and in that selfishness negligent of how others think and feel about the same things. Otherwise, why would he have stooped to using the koi rod? That's not something that someone with a guardian complex would do. That's not something that a caring person would do. That's something that a selfish loser would do, when the reality of their situation forces them to fulfill their obsessive fantasies through more unscrupulous means.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Being delusioned and having a guardian complex would be two different things though.

It's pretty easy to point out that his thinking doesn't have to be perfect as it's skewed already. On top of being deluded into thinking thats his only choice, he's also misunderstanding what it means to be Akane's guardian. (God only knows there are more misunderstandings amongst that group than you can shake a stick at.)

As for the koi rod. I chalk it up to temptation. He's hardly a shining beacon of righteousness, and even in his state of delusion, a quick & easy fix for the situation is a mighty big carrot to dangle in front of the donkey's (piglet's) face.

Asside from being a deluded angsty dude, he's also still a kid. (Teenager really)... hormone central.

I can't begrudge him his delusions and mistakes enough to pass judgement on him and brand him something as permenant as 'despicable' or 'bad person'.

Not when 'Stupid and Confused' are perfectly viable options that get the job done with less mess.

[Crescent Pulsar]

But you're arguing that he's not bad because he does things for Akane's sake, not his own. If that were the case, and thus the common denominator that inspires his behavior, I'd share your opinion. But that's simply not the case. What he does is mostly for himself, because he's selfish and self-centered. When he uses Akane against Ranma while in his P-chan form, it's not for her sake; it's really for his own. When he wants something to come between them, it's really for his own benefit. If that were not the case, then he wouldn't have tried to enjoy the company of both Akane and Akari. And each of them alone. That had nothing to do with looking after their best interests; he was looking after his own. In fact, he was being so selfish that he was willing to try to bite off more than he could chew.

There's no way to get around the fact that there are some basic traits to his personality that make this behavior come to light. Remember, delusions are still a collection of ideas, and those ideas had to come from somewhere and put together by something. It's what put them together that is the key to this argument, and it's not any selfless notion to do what he imagines is in Akane's best interest that did it.

The reason why I don't call him despicable is because he shares a lot of the same behavior with other characters, so it's pretty normal. That, and he does have some sense of honor, even if it's not strong enough to overcome his selfish desires most of the time.

[FriendlyEL]

Even though I love him as a character I will admit he has his personality aspects that are very loathsome. The thing is though that as bad as he is it seems like pretty much most of the other enemies/fiancees of Ranma seem to do all sorts of crap that make them all the more worse, and have easier lives that make their actions less excusable. I never understood why people dislike him worse than other charachters, but I guess the main reasons I've notice people give are:

1) The whole "P'chan" situation, which is only seen as all that bad because of the feminazi outlook of Takashi's work.

2) He is commonly portrayed as better than he is by fans and fanfiction (which is true).

3) He can be kind of a moron at times, even compared to alot of the other cast.

[Crescent Pulsar]

1) The whole "P'chan" situation, which is only seen as all that bad because of the feminazi outlook of Takashi's work.

...Wait, what? Takahashi's a feminazi? And people actually think that in relation to Ryoga getting close to Akane as P-chan? O.o

Let me try to get this straight. It's okay for a guy to get close to a girl, just because he has the body of an animal? To think otherwise makes the author a feminazi? And this despite the shame it would bring Akane if his actions were discovered (which, I'm assuming, would happen)? Sounds more like the logic of a male chauvinist in favor of slave girls and harems, to me.

No matter how else it's looked at, in this regard, what he does as P-chan is morally wrong. I think it's a completely legitimate reason to view it as a point against his character, in the negative.

(I don't know if you believe the same opinion as you shared, FriendlyEL, so I addressed the opinion itself. I just wanted to say that in order to completely avoid a misunderstanding.)

[DarkFyre99]

I'm so tempted to point out right now that the majority of the comedy in Ranma 1/2 stems from the fact that every single character, with the debatable exception of Kasumi, are sociopaths, and trying to analyze their behavior outside of their comedic setting is an exercise in futility. But I won't. ^_^

Hibiki Ryouga has always reminded me of Londo Mollari from Babylon 5. At heart, a good person, but between his circumstances, his weaknesses, and his poor decisions in the past, he keeps on doing bad things. Not only that, he knows what he keeps doing isn't right, but is unable to gather the will to stop. While I find his actions to be despicable, I find his character to be tragic, not despicable. Unlike characters like Kuno or Happosai, there is a general feeling of "there but for the grace of God go I."

As for the Koi Rod incident... I blame it on temporary insanity, caused by the enspelled Ranma taking things to Fatal Attraction levels of stalking.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

But you're arguing that he's not bad because he does things for Akane's sake, not his own.

Straw Man Fallacy.
I am not arguing that he's not bad because he does things for Akane's sake. I am arguing that those are his justifications within his mind to 'rationalize' his actions. There are certainly some selfish motivations hiding in there. But the entire POINT of delusion is that you've convinced yourself of the moral superiority of your actions.

There's no way to get around the fact that there are some basic traits to his personality that make this behavior come to light. Remember, delusions are still a collection of ideas, and those ideas had to come from somewhere and put together by something. It's what put them together that is the key to this argument, and it's not any selfless notion to do what he imagines is in Akane's best interest that did it.

There are some basic traits of his personality that are pretty stupid. The most prominent I believe is actually quite interesting:
Everything that happens to him is someone else's fault... usually Ranma. Unable to get Bread? Ranma. Not getting his challenge, ranma... being a piglet, RANMAAAA!!!! His hell according to his rationale is all RANMA's fault. At least, in his mind.

Though in reality, just about everything that's happened to him is as much fault as Ranma's. The bread? Maybe if he got there sooner.
The missed fight. I dunno about that one. But I would chalk it up to being a moron. I would have at least figured out that it takes me X amount of time to get anywhere even if I get lost and wander half the country doing so. He could have planned for that.
The curse? Well, if he hadn't been trying to track Ranma down, he wouldn't have gotten bounced on by Ranma. *Shrug*

But I don't think this is mere denial either. He seems almost hard wired not to even CONSIDER that bad things happening to him are a result of his own short comings.

I would even bank on it being the source of his Delusional state. You know how problems work. You get one, then another, and things snowball from there.

If I were to try and knock some sense into Ryoga (with the unstoppable paper fan routine mind you, otherwise I get pounded flat), it would be pointing out to him when HE makes a mistake, and what he could do to avoid that mistake. Try and work him into a mindset that stops and examines the details and recognizes how his own actions play into it. That would be a good stepping stone to overcoing his inherent flaw.

[LawOhki]

Your rationalizations don't change that Ryoga's character is despicable.

Murder, rape, and violence are perfectly acceptable actions to him for most situations.

Akane likes and is engaged to Ranma not him, what's Ryoga do? Molest Akane as a pig, attempts to kill Ranma, attempts to force himself on Akane when she shows any kind of response to his advances, attempts to leave Ranma permanently in cursed form after betraying him, attempts to date both Akane and Akari at the same time. Tries to use the koi rod of love to force Akane to love him, after hitting Ranma instead he chooses to drug Ranma, kill him, and then bury the body in the woods. Believing that this would clear the way for him and Akane to be together.

The list goes on.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Your rationalizations don't change that Ryoga's character is despicable.

Murder, rape, and violence are perfectly acceptable actions to him for most situations.

Akane likes and is engaged to Ranma not him, what's Ryoga do? Molest Akane as a pig, attempts to kill Ranma, attempts to force himself on Akane when she shows any kind of response to his advances, attempts to leave Ranma permanently in cursed form after betraying him, attempts to date both Akane and Akari at the same time. Tries to use the koi rod of love to force Akane to love him, after hitting Ranma instead he chooses to drug Ranma, kill him, and then bury the body in the woods. Believing that this would clear the way for him and Akane to be together.

The list goes on.

Wow...
Yes, it does... here's the list.

- Appeal to Emotion
- Appeal to Spite
- Ignoring a Common Cause
- Misleading Vividness
- Composition
- False Dilema
- Straw Man
- Factual Error
- Inductive Fallacy

Nine out of 46 Logical Fallacies. In one paragraph...
That's a new record... I've never seen that many in an entire argument. Usually it's just Straw Man.

But seriously, these flaws are all stemming from a refusal to take the scenarios presented at each point in a logical case by case basis from a logical and methodical perspective.

That could be taken as Hasty Generalization Fallacy. Probably sourced from a Bias against the character in question. (Unnatural Animosity towards Ryoga from a perspective of applying one's own moral judgement liberally.)

In short, you're being overly emotional about it. The appeal to emotion by throwing in 'RAPE' and 'MURDER', which never actually occured or are exaggerations of events, as buzzwords to support your case are dead givaways... on top of reinforcing the term 'despicable'...

Come on, you can do better. This is too easy.

[LawOhki]

That's a new record... I've never seen that many in an entire argument. Usually it's just Straw Man.

Don't complain about 'straw man' when your entire post is a straw man.

But seriously, these flaws are all stemming from a refusal to take the scenarios presented at each point in a logical case by case basis from a logical and methodical perspective.

Ryoga at one point used a magical fishing rod to make Akane love him. He's obsessed with Akane, an engaged woman, and he's willing to force her to love him. That's rape of not only her mind, but would have lead to her body. Of course that didn't happen, but looking at how he dealt with Ranma shows that simply removing the magical effect doesn't factor into his mind when he doesn't want the person's affections. Nor the fact that Akane might not want to be with him. He simply doesn't care what her opinion is, seeing her as nothing but a prize to be won. She's just an object to him.

Failing to capture Akane in his spell, realizing that he instead caught Ranma, Ryoga decided that murdering Ranma and hiding the body was the best course of action. Which was not a heat of the moment event like if they were in a fight, Ryoga planned it out and took a great deal of time to try and find a secluded spot to do it in to dispose of the evidence. He is attempting to murder someone, it's premeditated, and not only does he plan it but he actually goes out to do it.

When the magical mark is finally removed, Ryoga's doesn't care that he almost destroyed someone's life in his attempt to take over Akane's. He's unrepentant, he shows no remorse for his actions, even believing that Akane would reward him with her love.

There I just took a scenario and broke it down, as per your own challenge. What rationalization are you going to give that shows Ryoga isn't a rapist and murderer? Or are you going to attack the terminology? Ya know, since you want to use nice words that tone down what a character was going to do.

[Crescent Pulsar]

Straw Man Fallacy.

It wasn't intended as such, but that's how it appeared to me.

I am not arguing that he's not bad because he does things for Akane's sake. I am arguing that those are his justifications within his mind to 'rationalize' his actions. There are certainly some selfish motivations hiding in there. But the entire POINT of delusion is that you've convinced yourself of the moral superiority of your actions.

See, I call him pathetic, rather than despicable, because he does have the capacity to do the right things: he just rarely has the will or impetus to listen to his conscience. Sure, he's pitiful to begin with -- what with being lonely, and all that. But there are far better ways to cure one's self of loneliness, compared to how he has tried to accomplish it. And that's the thing. In the end it's a question of his character, and that delves deeper than rationalizations, justifications, and delusions. Those things only exist because of what kind of person he is, the personality that lies beneath them.

Now, in my opinion, I think you and I have made conservative judgments of his character. Which isn't a bad thing, since he's both fictional and in a setting that we're not supposed to take seriously. In reality, however, he wouldn't find much sympathy in a court of law. Well, there isn't supposed to be any sympathy at all, but I'm assuming you know how I used the word. But he has a lot of intent and malice in his actions, and that's not good, at all. But, if I had to say that he wasn't a bad person, I'd only do so if in comparison to some of the other characters in the series, that are notably worse than he is.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Ryoga at one point used a magical fishing rod to make Akane love him. He's obsessed with Akane, an engaged woman, and he's willing to force her to love him. That's rape of not only her mind, but would have lead to her body. Of course that didn't happen, but looking at how he dealt with Ranma shows that simply removing the magical effect doesn't factor into his mind when he doesn't want the person's affections. Nor the fact that Akane might not want to be with him. He simply doesn't care what her opinion is, seeing her as nothing but a prize to be won. She's just an object to him.

I'm going to have to ask you to cite the chapter and volume for me, or episode. I honestly DON'T remember this particular arc from the manga (Didn't it end with a whole 'Back to Status Quo, lets try and start over' vibe? around ... Vol 34?), the OVAs, or the series itself.
Or maybe I missed a movie.

Wasn't from the freshly released Ranma media we got hint at like, month ago, was it? That stuff sneaks up on you.

Failing to capture Akane in his spell, realizing that he instead caught Ranma, Ryoga decided that murdering Ranma and hiding the body was the best course of action. Which was not a heat of the moment event like if they were in a fight, Ryoga planned it out and took a great deal of time to try and find a secluded spot to do it in to dispose of the evidence. He is attempting to murder someone, it's premeditated, and not only does he plan it but he actually goes out to do it.

When the magical mark is finally removed, Ryoga's doesn't care that he almost destroyed someone's life in his attempt to take over Akane's. He's unrepentant, he shows no remorse for his actions, even believing that Akane would reward him with her love.

There I just took a scenario and broke it down, as per your own challenge. What rationalization are you going to give that shows Ryoga isn't a rapist and murderer? Or are you going to attack the terminology? Ya know, since you want to use nice words that tone down what a character was going to do.

Actually, I'm going to withhold statement until I can review the source. It would be inrresponsible of me to give you a response to this scenario going merely on your word.

[LawOhki]

I'm going to have to ask you to cite the chapter and volume for me, or episode. I honestly DON'T remember this particular arc from the manga (Didn't it end with a whole 'Back to Status Quo, lets try and start over' vibe? around ... Vol 34?), the OVAs, or the series itself.
Or maybe I missed a movie.

Koi Rod of Love Arc.

Volume 23 Chapters 8 through 10.
http://www.maxmanga.com/online_manga/48 ... t=38&n=117

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Okay... I'm going to say this much.

I remember the Pantyhose Taro arc from the begining, I recognize the cooking short

But how the *)@#%$ did I miss both the Koi rod arc AND that hilarious War Suit short at the end?

Anyway. I was expecting something sinister on the part of Ryoga here the way. But all I see is his usual delusions taken to hilarious extremes in the usual Snowball of misunderstanding.

Starting with the Koi Rod. There was no sinister plot going on there. He picked it up, doubting it the entire time, and only used it in a 'what the hell, it was cheap' fashon. Hardly despicable as he was going through the motions without any belief that what he was doing would yield him any results. (Of course, as we all know, every time we see something of this nature, it does exactly what it says on the label. Too bad nobody in Ranma's cast realizes that.)

Then later, he all but confessed to Akane. About the whole thing and how he was having a moment of weakness. (Of course, that got screwed up.)

Now, to cap this nice little bit off, the part where he was going to 'MURDER' Ranma in cold blood... he couldn't do it. Thus, causing the entire claim of his despicable actions to fall flat on its face in a mound of cattle dung. He cannot, WILL NOT strike down someone who can't or won't fight back. And SAYS SO.

Only immediately afterwords did he recant on this when Ranma inadvertantly enraged him with a combination of a kiss (ewwww) and karaoke, resulting in a running fight. That's Standard Ryoga vs Ranma fare that we've seen since Ryoga's introduction. His usual Rip'nTEAR! insanity. (By the way, this was obviously played as a comedy relief to the drama that was built up for the 'murder' sequence.)

As for removing the mark. It never even occured to Ryoga (Or even Akane when she found the rod). There was nothing that even implied the mark could be removed to solve the issue. He was even surprised when he counter-struck with the rod at the end and it yanked the mark right off.


*dusts hands off*

Ryoga's a delusioned, confused, mess of a man. (Not to mention a bit of a simple minded dunderhead.) But he's hardly despicable by any stretch of the imagination.

[three headed dog]

I already stated my opinion and do not really feel like continuing to talk in this topic, but I'll do so anyways. I would like to know the people who are claiming Ryoga as not being despicable, definition of despicable. I see him as despicable using the definition morally reprehensible for despicable. Morally reprehensible meaning deserving blame or censure for not conforming to standards of behavior and character based on principals of right and wrong (i.e. doing things that are morally wrong, that the character knows is morally wrong). By my definition Ryoga is despicable, he knows that many of the things he does are wrong and is deserving blame for his actions.