...
Look, if you're serious about having other people argue against your point, don't do the work for them. -_-
First you say:
The being called Chaos is a part of the Sailor moon universe. Usagi would have to gain it's backing to truly represent the universe.
And then you say one...
Yes, I did read the article. It stated that the word cosmos is used to describe orderly or harmonious systems. The word cosmos means order.
Two...
we see in Sailor moon is that the Serenity line is trying to create and maintain orderly and harmonious systems, and they use Chaos's opposite the Silver Crystal to do so. Crystal Tokyo and the Silver Millennium are examples of these orderly and harmonious systems.
Three...
We see Chaos in all it's incarnations trying to disrupt orderly and harmonious systems, and seems to focus on those created, and or maintained by users of the Silver Crystal.
Four...
We are told Sailor Cosmos's opposite is Sailor Chaos. Sailor Cosmos is in fact Sailor order, orderly arrangement, ornaments...
Nowhere do you support your claim that Chaos is required for someone to be Sailor Cosmos. In fact, you mention just about every reason why they are completely at odds and opposite of the other.
One: If Cosmos is order and harmony, then what part of disorder and disharmony would makes things orderly and harmonious? If you put the two together, you don't get either of them because they balance out. Cosmos is not about a balancing act, but about an absolute.
Thus why Cosmos fights Chaos time and time again to try and get rid of it once and for all. I'll provide a quote from the manga that illustrates this point:
Sailor Cosmos wrote:But once again... It wasn't possible to destroy Chaos completely. I have come from the far future. I ran from the battle with Sailor Chaos... leaving everything behind. All the bloodshed... The long, gruesome battles... Sailor Chaos is so big and powerful. There is no way of winning by conventional means. Even if he is defeated... Even if I obtain peace again. The damage and sacrifice made for it will be too great.
Two: And where in the Silver Millennium and Crystal Tokyo was there disorder and disharmony, outside the times it was imposed and beaten back? None. That's because whatever Chaos represents has nothing to do with what order and harmony represent. The Serenity line tries to maintain something which Chaos is not.
Three: And if Chaos is trying to disrupt orderly and harmonious systems, then how can it be a part of the Cosmos? If it was, then it'd be the same as commiting suicide. But would an orderly and harmonious system self-destruct like that? Absoluetly not. It'd have no reason to exist to die, but rather to exist to live, proven by how the parts in support of order and harmony wish to prevent it from happening rather than allowing it happen without question.
Four: If Chaos and Cosmos are the opposite, then how can they be the same thing? I mean, besides the fact that we have an acting Cosmos without Chaos being a part of it and who, in fact, tries to destroy it, if Chaos was required for there to be a Cosmos, then there would be no Sailor Chaos: because Sailor Cosmos would represent chaos and thus there wouldn't have been Metallia, Death Phantom, Pharoah 90, Nephrenia, or Chaos itself to fight against.
Quoting from the manga, this is what Cosmos is:
One of the four asteroid senshi wrote:Did Sailor Moon sacrifice her life to use the Silver Imperium Crystal's power!?
Sailor Cosmos wrote:No. This power is generated by thousands of Sailor Crystals throughout the galaxy. This is Cosmos Crystals's power to change everything to cosmos energy, the ultimate Lambda power.
Here we see that Cosmos and the ginzuishou are distinct from one another. Which helps to support...
Sailor Cosmos wrote:The Sailor Moon that just saved the galaxy is Sailor Cosmos' true form. Like Eternal Sailor Moon did... When I receive the power to lose and save everything, that is when I truly become Sailor Cosmos.
And this is what Sailor Cosmos is. It isn't until Eternal Sailor Moon reminds Chibi-Chibi that she had already taken the right path that she transformed (perhaps regained) her form as Sailor Cosmos.
And all of this ultimately means that:
The being called Chaos is a part of the Sailor moon universe. Usagi would have to gain it's backing to truly represent the universe.
This isn't the case. And...
we see in Sailor moon is that the Serenity line is trying to create and maintain orderly and harmonious systems, and they use Chaos's opposite the Silver Crystal to do so. Crystal Tokyo and the Silver Millennium are examples of these orderly and harmonious systems.
That this never happened. (That which I bolded, of course.) And also...
Chaos may not mean disorder, but the primal emptiness, space, but in this case both or only one meanings may apply.
This was made irrelevant. Disorder or not, it's not a part of Cosmos. Primal emptiness, space, or not, to become nothing but that, or disorder, would go against the Cosmos' purpose and nature.
And now, finally...
As it stands Sailor Cosmos is not shown to do anything Sailor Moon can not do with the Silver Crystal if maybe on a more extreme scale in the manga. It doesn't take Cosmos controlling the cauldron to raise the dead, and reset things after some extremely powerful being does something as if nothing happened.
How people died before, and what happened in the cauldron, are completely different in nature. Sailor Moon has only restored the body of a star seed, not a star seed itself. In comparison to what Cosmos can do it's a very superficial power. Allow me to illustrate the significance of star seeds and the cauldron:
Galaxia wrote:The holiest place in the universe... Galaxy Cauldron. Strong stars. Losers and Sailor senshi. Everything in the galaxy is born here.
Galaxia continued wrote:Here, everything is made, and everything is lost.
Then she drops all of the Sailor Crystals into the Galaxy Cauldron.
Galaxia again wrote:Hundreds of Sailor Crystals from across the galaxy just melted into nothing.
Eternal Sailor Moon's reaction?
Eternal Sailor Moon wrote:Everybody's Sailor Crystals disappeared? I always believed that... if I could save their Sailor Crystals... everybody would come back to normal.
Eternal Sailor Moon doesn't have the power to create or destroy star seeds; only the cauldron does. Losing a body isn't a true death, because people can be revived so long as their star seeds exist. And Cosmos has control of the cauldron, that can do what Eternal Sailor Moon can not, because of what Cosmos' guardian was able to do. And here's the reason why, for, while everyone's still in the cauldron, Cosmos's guardian asks:
Cosmos' guardian wrote:So you come here to throw your life into the cauldron and start a new star's history? Or do you wish to live here as you are?
Giving Usagi and the others a choice is indicative of her power over what happens in the cauldron. It goes beyond raising the dead, and into the realm of controlling everything's very fate. This is a power that far exceeds Usagi's. Because, as Galaxia mentioned:
Galaxia wrote:This cauldron is the universe's ultimate star!
And if that's true (and everything so far suggests that it is), and Cosmos can dictate what happens to star seeds inside of the cauldron, then Cosmos holds the ultimate power in the universe, which Eternal Sailor Moon and the ginzuishou can't match.
But, in the end, I believe that the argument was:
What did Cosmos to show power over the galaxy cauldron?
And I think I answered that definitively more than once. Hopefully, this time, once and for all.
And, so, this should bring these arguments to an end, seeing as how I don't see how they can be refuted. To try would likely be trolling. ;/
Anyway, while I'm at it, I might as well bring another issue to a close.
FOG3 wrote:I am not Zwzn. I prefer to make my point and be done with it, not engage in endlessly picking at someone else's opinion.
No, you're not Zwzn. But that doesn't mean that you don't make me reiterate myself, because my arguments still stand. And they still do. Allow me to separate fact from opinion, and render your points void, to prove it.
Misinterpretation on your part. Developed in the sense of having enough to work up a full personality profile, is not the same thing as character growth. None of the characters in manga are fully develloped, and as a result to much inference must be made for a full profile. Even if Usagi is largely just this. The objection stands.
I didn't misinterpret anything. Behold:
I wrote:If she didn't, she wouldn't have stopped wailing like a banshee in battle.
She's too afraid of fighting enemies. That's a pre-existing part of her profile. When she is no longer afraid that's not an addition to her personality, but a change. Also known as a growth.
She didn't like being Sailor Moon at first, either. But that eventually changes, as well. Growth.
At first she acted jealous and immature about how Mamoru cared about Chibi-Usa, taking it to mean that Chibi-Usa was more important to him, and thought she was a threat to their relationship because Chibi-Usa loved him, despite being a child. But she later realizes her mistake and changes her attitude about it. Growth.
And even by the end of the series:
Eternal Sailor Moon wrote:I can't fight anymore. Everybody is gone. I wasn't always fighting for peace and justice. I was fighting for my friends and loved ones.
Growth. I think I proved my point that there is growth in the manga.
And the characters have full personality profiles. We know everything that we need to know about them, from the beginning to the end of the series, as well as from the side stories. To not see that is either a failure of the reader or purposeful negligence. We are given every relevant trait of the main characters. Just because we aren't shown every conceivable action and reaction to all circumstance doesn't mean that they don't have a complete profile. Everything to suggest what they would do is there for us to put together; it's not a mystery. It just takes a little effort to consider.
So, the objection falls. Mostly because inference is made by the information provided. If there's enough information to draw from, it's possible to conclude what more someone might want to know. And I think there's more than enough information to do that.
In manga they shoot first, don't ask questions
Um... They don't need to ask questions when the intent is clear, when the danger and threat to them or anyone else is evident beyond a doubt. And that's the case just about every time.
And when they encountered the outer senshi, and then the starlights, when they were mysteries and possible enemies, they only confronted them, got defensive, and asked questions. They didn't attack first.
and party on pretty much from day 1 till the end
No, they don't. They simply live their lives when there is no threat, or when they don't know what to do about the current situation and decide that thinking about it any further would get them nowhere. To be more specific, whenever there's an opportunity to do it, they take the time to investigate and prepare themselves for a fight. They did it more than once at Infinity college, and more than once at the Dead Moon's circus. Those don't seem like parties, to me. And I certainly don't consider the final story arc to be anywhere near a party, as all of the senshi, her friends, and her lover, die one by one.
To say otherwise, I think, is what's really called a misconception.
I only bother with anime up through S season. At D-Point she whines and gets her friends killed while they seriously put out and she doesn't put out at all. In S she hands over the grail to an entity she knows perfectly well intends to use it to bring mass doom, based on pathetic acting with no preventative measures to insure she would turn right around do exactly what she did. Again hardly what I call dealing with serious or mature matters. Looks like she's still letting uncertainty dominate at the expense of everyone around her to me, and I'm trying to be nice about it.
The problem here is that you're arguing about her judgement. She's still thinking about, and dealing with, serious and mature matters. Just because she makes bad decisions doesn't make that fact irrelevant. But if you want to argue against her judgement, it improves, and she goes from killing herself uselessly to sacrificing herself to try and save everyone else. In the manga, she experiences this
growth by the time she faces Pharaoh 90. She becomes very reliable up until the last story arc, where she is unable to prevent Galaxia from taking everyone's Sailor Crystals. However, it always works out in the end, so she must be doing something right regardless.
With great power comes great responsbility, and spare me the allusions to her ever volunteering for the job. She got drafted, and they always targetted her directly. Volunteering was never in the equation. Nevermind in manga she does surrender to Metaria twice by suiciding over Endymion. I would be more generous about the whole thing if she wasn't endangering everyone around her at just about every opportunity.
There are no allusions. She does volunteer. Her mother wanted her to live a normal life. She didn't intend for her to be a soldier of peace and justice. Usagi isn't drafted because of her own sense of responsibility. It's true that she is often (not always) the target of enemies, and Luna did coerce her (although she wasn't aware that she was the princess, or of her mother's wishes), but she could have ignored her and walked away from it. But does she have the heart to allow her friend, Naru, to be killed? Of course not. And from then onward she realizes that she has the power to do right, and to vanquish things that normal people can not. If she had only cared about herself, and had not been concerned about the lives of others, then she could have ignored it. Or, if she had been too scared to face the dangers, she would have hidden away from it, and, either way, end up being killed trying to do so. She was simply faced with the facts of the circumstances and she couldn't ignore or hide from them, and because of that she grew to become more resilient and dedicated to do what was in her power to do.
Just because many of the circumstances around her are beyond her control, and she and those around her are targeted so often, that doesn't mean that making decisions based on her principles, and responding to threats, are drafts. In fact, she doesn't volunteer to protect the planet full-time until the very end of the series, which sets her up to becoming Neo-Queen Serenity. And that's evidenced by:
Usagi, in response to Cosmos' guardian's questions wrote:We would like to be what we are and live together. We would like to make our future the way we are. No matter how tough, I want to live this life!
No matter how tough. She could have abandoned her current existence, but she elected not to. She wasn't drafted, but rather decided to continue life as it was, knowing very well what that meant. That's just the sort of person that she is.
But, in the end, I'm sure it can be argued that it's a matter of semantics. So I'll just state my disagreement on this matter as an opinion, and leave it at that, since I doubt we would be able to reconcile our differences on the matter.
Oh, and it's kind of pointless to make her out as a danger to everyone when life itself is a series of dangers. That, and the fact that people would be endangered by the same forces whether she lived or not, or had the ginzuishou or not. The ultimate goal of every enemy would have put everyone in danger regardless. Personally, I don't think she's much of a danger to anyone other than those on the wrong side of the playing field. Even if I were a casualty, at least I'd be comforted by the fact that she will bring me back to life, instead of dead for good like the baddies.
Unless you want to set a real standard, putting the bar that low is inherently a concession of the point on your part, which makes for game, set, match.
A poor choice of wording, on my part, I admit. But it's not game, set and match because my argument still stands. As illustrated by these quotes, of what I've already said:
I wrote:It's simply crazy to think that she doesn't love anyone beyond herself despite all of the evidence against it in both the anime and the manga; she's not referred to so frequently as the senshi of love and justice for nothing. It's because it's true. The very nature required to use the ginzuishou proves it absolutely. It's as simple as that.
Neo-Queen Serenity wrote:Since I became Neo-Queen Serenity, I have lost most of my power as a sailor scout. It was may fault. I couldn't keep the strong heart and the courage to defeat that mad criminal Death Phantom.
And I'll now add:
Queen Serenity wrote:Princess Serenity... Remember this... The Silver Imperium Crystal follows your heart. You must have strong faith, unity, and deep love.
As evidenced by these, as well as other things that I've mentioned in this post, there is no doubt that she is selfless and disciplined. Her deep love allows her to be selfless, and she does so much for everyone that lives to ensure that they have a future. She risks her life to defeat evil, and several times sacrifices it for the sake of others. And it takes discipline to use the ginzuishou, and to never give up the fight. She has displayed all of this, and more. It is a large part of her character that can not be denied, and there shouldn't be a reason to overlook it. It should be that obvious.
You're grabbing at straws, and the first statement is in agreement with the assertion therefore you have conceded the point. Thank you.
No need for thanks. You're making me blush. ;/ But, alas, that wasn't what my statement asserted. The reason for that is because...
I wrote:It seems more like Saturn was more of a means of closing a chapter so a new one could begin, which is what is suggested in her "death and rebirth" motto, rather than to simply destroy everything and be done with it.
I wrote:It is just death. You need death for rebirth. I never said anything about her being the one that causes rebirth; I only said, to the effect, that it was a necessary step for it.
What you failed to see was that I was elaborating what I had already said. I never said that she opened a new chapter (rebirth), I only suggested that she closed one to allow the next one to open. As illustrated by this quote:
Sailor Saturn wrote:Do not be distraught. Always with the end comes hope and rebirth. You are the one who brings that, Sailor Moon.
And few panels later...
Sailor Saturn wrote:I am the scout who brings the death and destruction necessary for rebirth.
I was arguing that her role with delivering destruction was more complex than simply destroying everything. She and a Serenity play a dual role in accomplishing death and rebirth. (Do note that her attack for accomplishing that is called "Death Reborn Revolution." If she had no connection to rebirth at all, it would have just been called "Death Revolution.")
FYI with Buddhist philosophy of the cycle of rebirth the intent is to get out stucking having to do, do overs which are seen as punishment. Unless you get it right you have to do it over and over again until you do get it right. The author took influence off that mold, so your speculating largely falls flat.
My speculation about how things work in the universe itself is fairing well. What you're arguing here was never an issue.
Furthermore in both Saturn showed up after the assault to finish up, so it wasn't ccasually possible for her to have any influence on what the Serenitys did one way or another.
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. But the fact is that Saturn has the power to destroy a planet, and yet there are no planets missing, and people still exist. The first Serenity had enough time after the attack and destruction of the Moon Kingdom to put Luna and Artemis into cryogenic sleep and upload herself into the Moon Palace's computer. Plus, the outer senshi hadn't been killed, so she would have had to have waited for them to die before she could send them off for rebirth, too. Which suggests that she was still alive after Saturn dropped her silence glaive. And what happens after the destruction? Rebirth. And whose job is that? Serenity's. And, seeing as all of the planets and humanity are accounted for, that's what must have happened. So Saturn does have an influence on what a Serenity does, up until the next-to-last arc, where her purpose changes. Until then, her destruction still isn't indiscriminate. And this proves it, when she is about to unleash her destructive power primarily upon Pharoah 90 instead of on everything and everyone:
This land is destined to become the Silver Millennium.
The ties that bind, as they say.
Depopulation and planet scattering are not analogous events.
I covered this above.
Which just means they were buried deep, again depopulation does not require shattering a planet into gravel.
Given the lack of real objection on the point I'm going to have to call game, set, match on that as well. You conceed the point, you conceed the point. There's not a need for the excess rationalizing, I think we've established I'm not out to get you or anything of that sort by now.
And I covered this above, as well. Besides, it's unfair to be both the opponent and the referee. ;/
Now you're just being intentionally dense just to be contrary.
I was stating a fact. Facts hold weight, not me theirs, so I'm no more dense than I ever was. There's no proof that she fooled anyone in becoming queen, for one. And those few who disagreed with her thought that they were being fooled by her notions of peace and longevity, and thus acted accordingly in opposition. And thus "fool" is appropriate.
And the less time we fuss over a fair tale formula ending in this context the better.
I'm not fussing. I'm just stating an observational fact, nothing more.
They shoot first, don't ask questions, and party later and have such little consideration for collatoral damage, Usagi who shows she's perfectly capable of downing Chaos enetities by herself doesn't even lift a finger in opposition to Saturn basically wiping out the entire populace of Earth for the entertainment value. Objectively it happened, subjectively that's not the intent but neither is anything you alluded to.
Aside from the parts already proven to be untrue, what can she hope to do to prevent collateral damage? I think she has enough consideration, or else she wouldn't fix the damage and death afterward. She can only do so much during a battle, and it's usually the enemy that causes the damages (and especially the deaths). And it's crazy to suggest that she would enjoy watching Saturn destroy everything. She wasn't exactly in a position to do anything at the time, and Saturn was already making her way into the other dimension to avoid the complete destruction of Earth by the time Super Sailor Moon became fully cognizant of her surroundings.
And what I alluded to was this:
Seems as how your focus is manga the proper list of quals actually would be more along the lines of: murder, mayhem, genocide, and vigilantism with no concern for the populace. If it was anime at least it'd mostly be criminal negligence endangering the human species on multiple occassions.
You make her out to be some kind of horrendous monster, no better than the worst Nazi. There's no way that she is, would be, or would need those qualifications to become queen in the Sailor Moon universe. It's simply absurd. Someone is much more likely to think of a war criminal from the Nazi party, or anyone else of that nature, than Sailor Moon, given that description. Because it's just not true. And thus...
Without absolute writer situation control she is about the last person you want with the power she has.
I beg to differ most emphatically.
There. I do believe that's the final nail in the coffin. I separated facts from the opinions, provided facts to back up my arguments (again; with all quotes directly from the manga), and did so civilly. I couldn't let the misconceptions and injustices stand as they were: anyone reading these posts deserves more than that. And, with that said, arguing any further on these matters wouldn't be wise, considering that my arguments continue to stand on firm ground. And that's unlikely to change, all things considered. But that's just my opinion. ;/
Either way, I'm out. I think I lost nine hours of my life writing this thing. Oh, right; I did. <_<;