Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

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Is Usagi really the senshi of the moon?

Poll ended at Sun May 17, 2009 12:56 pm

Yes, of course. She is the one called Sailor Moon! :O
4
9%
Yes, of course. She is the one called Sailor Moon! :O
4
9%
She isn't Sailor Moon. Curse her for such trickery!
5
11%
She isn't Sailor Moon. Curse her for such trickery!
5
11%
Cop out: Whether she is or not, she still represents Earth's moon, so... technically she is still Sailor Moon, in function.
13
30%
Cop out: Whether she is or not, she still represents Earth's moon, so... technically she is still Sailor Moon, in function.
13
30%
 
Total votes : 44

Postby FOG3 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:30 pm

Spokavriel wrote: If you have the level of power needed to cross galaxies a planetary mass is one way to keep sufficient atmosphere without having to bother with wasting as much energy on containment fields etc. And if you can control gravity (Somewhat seen in an accident with Chibi-Usa and her Time Key. If it can be an accidental side effect why couldn't there be technology from the same people that did it intentionally?) Having the mass to adjust the gravity on it could be a more natural way for them to travel.
You're seriously going to imply commissioning a dome and required heaters and scrubbers is somehow more energy intensive then... well let's just do the Physics 101 problem

Solar power output: 3.85e26 W
AU: 1.5e11m
Intensity: ~1400 W/m^2
Power Incident on Earth: 1.7e17 W or to give a better feel just how much power that is ~41 Megatons/second

aka the power of life that keeps all the important cycles running. Remember that's per second, in just a minute we're talking 2.5 GT worth of energy. In 4 minutes the energy incident on Earth is equivalent to all Nuclear Weapons in stock as of a few decades ago, and it's not that much longer for the height of the total yield of the arsenals. Yes the Moon is not Earth, but the Moon isn't exactly a self-sustaining world of which Earth is the only known example. So if this is a self sustaining world one would need to be supplying this kind of energy and do so in a manner to not result in hot spots.

Going with raw gravity, seems as how you need a lot more then the Moon has to offer in order to have a meaningful atmosphere isn't going to be a lot better. If we could harness a fraction of the gravitational energy between the Moon and Earth, such it wouldn't even have a appreciable effect on the orbit, we could power all conventional power systems pretty much indefinitely.

Nevermind why would people be willing to accept Serenity took out two planets Lensmen style, saving only who she deigned to before the actual collision and setup shop somewhere else for the many, many years it took for the giant rocks to sort themselves out? That makes the EVIIIILest interpretation of Crystal Tokyo look like chump change evil by comparison.
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Postby Spokavriel » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:58 pm

It would help support the Evil Setsuna theories and give a historic precedent as to why the idea of an entire world with half a soul per person didn't pose a moral conundrum to her.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:07 pm

Evil Setsuna theory? Half a soul per person? What's this about? O.o
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Postby Spokavriel » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:09 pm

People purified by the Ginzuishou do not have the capacity for evil anymore. Hence half a soul.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:34 pm

When was this said? I don't recall that in the manga... Plus, if that were so, how would there be that criminal that had been sent to Nemesis? And the people who took over Nemesis and became the Black Moon? And the kids that made fun of Chibi-Usa? <_<;
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Postby FOG3 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:06 pm

It's an extreme fanon version reaction to the whole talk of purification, and yes you're right Crescent it doesn't line up with canon. Nor does it even vaguely make any sort of sense for that matter. Evil is a choice, not an attribute and if it was an attribute it wouldn't be a positive one.

Personally I was alluding to the people who think it's our Earth and then want to shoehorn Crystal Tokyo in as ruling the planet. The problem which result from which are numerous, especially in manga where there are eventually no real humans left on planet. There's the humans are trash crowd trumpeting Dictatorship as a good thing to resolve it, and then there's those that don't and do the math.

The obnoxious part for me at least, was the last time we really had the discussion the Feudalists weren't willing to accept bones being thrown their way of it not being Earth or Usagi is unintentionally responsible for the slaughter of innumberable civilians. It nevertheless being her responsibility given she had the power and she took the authority. Nope it was unquestionable divinely graceful god-Empress or nothing for them.

You can just as easily draw it up as a tradegy scenario that she overdrew on the power with uninentional consequences that were finished by Nemesis' forces. So it's not like she even technically had to have ill intent.
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Postby Zwzn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:16 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:When was this said? I don't recall that in the manga... Plus, if that were so, how would there be that criminal that had been sent to Nemesis? And the people who took over Nemesis and became the Black Moon? And the kids that made fun of Chibi-Usa? <_<;

It is more or less an extreme interpretation of what Usagi did to the Four sisters and when the rebels tried to overthrow her in the anime from what I can tell.

The sad part is it's not hard to see Usagi doing it on accident.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Zwzn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:33 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Rather than have an argument, which will no doubt happen, I've decided to make a poll so people can just state their opinion, in light of, or not, the following information below. And I've been considerate enough to give you a cop out option in the poll, so... ;/

(The following information is derived from the manga.)

1: Usagi's mother came from another galaxy millions of years ago and, with it, the Ginzuishou. (Based on statements made by Snow Princess Kaguya and Queen Nephrenia.)

2: Usagi's mother said that one of their duties was to protect the Ginzuishou. (Statement made when she was a hologram.)

3: The life of Usagi, her mother and her daughter don't depend on it to live, like the other senshi and their sailor crystals. They can give it away, or have it removed from them, without vanishing. It simply operates too differently from them. (Examples of these throughout the manga.)

4: Princess Kaguya recognizes the white light from the Ginzuishou as the ruler of the galaxy, not the moon. (Mentioned before her demise.)

5: Question: why would Earth's moon, out of every single stellar object in the whole galaxy, be so much more significant than the rest?

6: While princess Kakyuu refers to the Ginzuishou as a sailor crystal, there's no proof if that's true, and doesn't explain the question brought up in #5.

7: And while it seems that Mamoru's golden crystal is similar to the Ginzuishou in nature, and may even be a counterpart (note the gold and silver theme, and how no other sailor crystal appears like, or is used like, theirs), he still "dies" (vanishes) when it's taken from him.

8: While there's evidence that there can be senshi for a solar system (the Starlights), as well as asteroids and dwarf planets (the Amazoness quartet), there are no senshi for a moon, beyond the one in question. (Mars' crows come from the planet Kronos, and weren't senshi for its moons.) It could be just a coincidence, but it's worth considering, I suppose.

9: Finally, there's Sailor Cosmos, who's suggested to be what Sailor moon becomes in the distant future. Whether that's factual or not, Sailor Cosmos could still transform using "Chibi Chibi crystal power," rather than something like "Cosmos crystal power." This might suggest that Usagi is only a senshi of the moon in title alone, rather than in reality, since both her appearance and title are mutable.

And there you have it. Have fun.

We really don't know much about Cosmos, and we don't rewally have much information on what makes a sailor senshi.

Isn't it possible that Usagi is the senshi of the Moon, and the Silver Crystal is Sailor Cosmos?

Isn't it possible Usagi just got a bigger ego, and changed her name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweat.

Isn't it possible Usagi is a fake senshi?

She is still Sailor Moon in function no matter what Usagi is.

Does anyone know where it is shown Senshi are really linked to a planet, Moon, random sub-atomic particle?
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:11 pm

Zwzn wrote:We really don't know much about Cosmos, and we don't rewally have much information on what makes a sailor senshi.

I think we have enough. Cosmos, whether the ultimate form of Sailor Moon or not, appears to have sway over the galaxy cauldron, where all types of star seeds are born. At least I gather that from the fact that Cosmos' guardian was able to dictate Usagi's and the others' fates. And what makes a sailor senshi is the type of star seed that they have, which they're born with, and why it's usually said that it's their fate to do what they do, as senshi.

Isn't it possible that Usagi is the senshi of the Moon, and the Silver Crystal is Sailor Cosmos?

It's a thought. But there's nothing to suggest that it had a previous life, or how/why it gained a life after so long.

Isn't it possible Usagi just got a bigger ego, and changed her name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweat.

If she were to change her name, I don't think it'd be because of her ego. And it seems to be a standard for them to use their real title. As far as I recall, the only exceptions were (perhaps) the Amazoness quartet (for an understandable reason), and Sailor Cosmos (who seems to be a special case).

Isn't it possible Usagi is a fake senshi?

I guess? I mean, literally, a senshi is just a warrior; so Usagi could be a real senshi. Being a sailor senshi dictates that her star seed is of the sailor crystal variety. And a star seed/sailor crystal is more or less the "soul" of a person. But, since the Ginzuishou doesn't act like the others, and it can even be passed down and used by another individual without her disappearing, I find it hard to believe that it's her "soul."

She is still Sailor Moon in function no matter what Usagi is.

True. Which is why I allowed the cop-out answer.

Does anyone know where it is shown Senshi are really linked to a planet, Moon, random sub-atomic particle?

The best example is probably Mamoru. (I can't remember exactly what he does, but I know he can sense things around the world. I'd have to look back in the manga to remember the details.)

I reckon that it's hard to see the connections since, instead of guarding their respective planets, they're serving Serenity and her desires (to protect Earth).

It is more or less an extreme interpretation of what Usagi did to the Four sisters and when the rebels tried to overthrow her in the anime from what I can tell.

The sad part is it's not hard to see Usagi doing it on accident.

Ah, I see. Yeah, it's nothing like that, in the manga. The sisters get obliterated and there's no purification: just longevity and those that didn't like it. However, it does make me wonder how Serenity can bring peace to a crazy world like our own just because she somehow becomes the ruler of the world a few years after the series ends. It makes me skeptical that everyone went along with it. Or maybe it's the author's optimistic view of what would happen with Serenity as the Earth's queen. *Shrugs*
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Zwzn » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:56 am

One interesting theory I have read about what Sailor Cosmos is that she could be a composite of all the Sol system Sailor Senshi.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I think we have enough. Cosmos, whether the ultimate form of Sailor Moon or not, appears to have sway over the galaxy cauldron, where all types of star seeds are born. At least I gather that from the fact that Cosmos' guardian was able to dictate Usagi's and the others' fates. And what makes a sailor senshi is the type of star seed that they have, which they're born with, and why it's usually said that it's their fate to do what they do, as senshi.

You will have to forgive me for not trusting a time traveling shape shifter who messes with people's heads.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: It's a thought. But there's nothing to suggest that it had a previous life, or how/why it gained a life after so long.

We know next to nothing about the Silver Crystal.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: If she were to change her name, I don't think it'd be because of her ego. And it seems to be a standard for them to use their real title. As far as I recall, the only exceptions were (perhaps) the Amazoness quartet (for an understandable reason), and Sailor Cosmos (who seems to be a special case).

Usagi thinks she has what it takes to be a good queen. That right there shows she has a huge ego, and there is nothing I've seen that says she can't become corrupt.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I guess? I mean, literally, a senshi is just a warrior; so Usagi could be a real senshi. Being a sailor senshi dictates that her star seed is of the sailor crystal variety. And a star seed/sailor crystal is more or less the "soul" of a person. But, since the Ginzuishou doesn't act like the others, and it can even be passed down and used by another individual without her disappearing, I find it hard to believe that it's her "soul."

I meant fake sailor senshi. In the anime Usagi is shown using and even needing outside power-sources to go super for example, or charge up the silver crystal.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: True. Which is why I allowed the cop-out answer.

And, I thank you for the cop-out answer.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: The best example is probably Mamoru. (I can't remember exactly what he does, but I know he can sense things around the world. I'd have to look back in the manga to remember the details.)

I thought that he could just touch something, and get information about it's past?

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I reckon that it's hard to see the connections since, instead of guarding their respective planets, they're serving Serenity and her desires (to protect Earth).

I would think that if a Sailor Senshi was linked to a planet it would effect their health depending on the condition of said planet, and didn't Saturn kill the Moon in the manga?

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Ah, I see. Yeah, it's nothing like that, in the manga. The sisters get obliterated and there's no purification: just longevity and those that didn't like it. However, it does make me wonder how Serenity can bring peace to a crazy world like our own just because she somehow becomes the ruler of the world a few years after the series ends. It makes me skeptical that everyone went along with it. Or maybe it's the author's optimistic view of what would happen with Serenity as the Earth's queen. *Shrugs*

You just answered where the idea Usagi brain-washed most people comes from concerning the manga.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:02 am

Zwzn wrote:One interesting theory I have read about what Sailor Cosmos is that she could be a composite of all the Sol system Sailor Senshi.

The problem with that, technically-speaking, is that a solar system is much smaller than a cosmos. But, since Chaos has a senshi, as well as a guardian, and Galaxia refers to the galaxy cauldron as the greatest star in the universe, Cosmos could be the senshi of the cauldron. Which correlates with her guardian's ability to return everyone back to their original forms, from the cauldron.

You will have to forgive me for not trusting a time traveling shape shifter who messes with people's heads.

I honestly don't know what that has to do with anything. O.o;

We know next to nothing about the Silver Crystal.

There's enough to work with. One, only certain people are meant to use it, and/or can tap into its potential. Two, its power is only limited by the person's heart. Three, it isn't attached to a single person like the other star seeds/sailor crystals, which could suggest that no one was born with it and thus has no "shell" (personality; something by which it could have a body with). Four, it's mentioned, several times, that it's the most powerful thing in the universe. Five, it's the polar opposite of Chaos; the light to its dark. And six, it's the same in any time, but only the one from the present time will work (although I think that's ignored later on :roll: ).

Usagi thinks she has what it takes to be a good queen. That right there shows she has a huge ego, and there is nothing I've seen that says she can't become corrupt.

Normally I'd agree, and I do agree about the potential of becoming corrupted. But, if Usagi does become Sailor Cosmos, then I'd have to disagree. And there's nothing shown of her, as Neo-Queen Serenity, that suggests a large ego, or corruption.

I meant fake sailor senshi. In the anime Usagi is shown using and even needing outside power-sources to go super for example, or charge up the silver crystal.

I'm not too familiar with the anime. I prefer the manga since it contains the conceiver's original intentions for the universe. But, out of curiosity, what did they do to charge up the Ginzuishou?

I thought that he could just touch something, and get information about it's past?

He can, if I remember correctly. But he can also see what's happening at the present, I believe. I haven't looked it up in the manga yet since I've been focusing on writing fan-fiction. But I know the general area where I can find him doing it, and make sure I remember right.

I would think that if a Sailor Senshi was linked to a planet it would effect their health depending on the condition of said planet, and didn't Saturn kill the Moon in the manga?

Well, when Elysian was cursed, it affected Mamoru, too.

And my memory's fuzzy on whether Saturn "killed" the moon. Either way it still exists, and despite how other planets are as "dead" as the moon would seem, the senshi that represent them don't seem to have any problems. And there's nothing to suggest that their state affects their power, since Mamoru has the liveliest planet and he's probably the weakest, if not an equal to, the others.

You just answered where the idea Usagi brain-washed most people comes from concerning the manga.

Not just the manga. ;p I'd think it'd especially be the anime, since the anime is the actual medium with all of the purifications, and it's the typical source most fan-fiction writers seem to draw from.
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Postby lwf58 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:11 am

I"ve always had a problem with that whole fanon "Usagi the ruthless dictator" bit.

First off, Usagi doesn't show any signs of really wanting the job. Instead, she's constantly told by others that she's destined to be queen of the remaining world, and views it as a duty she can't avoid, not something to look forward to.

As for the purification being brainwashing, that's also fanon. She doesn't do anything to control people's thoughts. Instead, it's more like removing what the Catholics call "Original Sin"; the impulses to do evil are removed. A subject of Crystal Tokyo would be a normal person, but wouldn't, say, have the sudden urge to shoplift when visiting a store.

And it wasn't forced on people. They had the choice to refuse it, although the people who did were not allowed to live on Earth, and were banished to Nemesis. That was possibly the worst thing Usagi did, but the original settlers were from the dark side of society, acknowledged criminals and traitors who would, in other societies, have been imprisoned for life or put to death. The majority of people accepted the purification willingly because they lost little and gained much.

Then the original criminal population of Nemesis had children, and they were innocent of the crimes of their forefathers and mothers. But they knew that their ancestors' banishment was justified.

Thus, at first, Prince Demand of the Black Moon Clan simply wanted to negotiate with Usagi to gain the right for those who had done no wrong to return to Earth. It wasn't until Death Phantom in the form of Wiseman went there and influenced their thinking that the Black Moon Clan came to desire revenge for their ancestors' banishment.
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Postby AshK1980 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:03 pm

Well I have never read the Manga, but I've heard some things about it.

In the Silver Millennium there actually wasn't a Sailor Moon. At least that's what I have come to think.

It was Princess Serenity, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Venus, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, and Saturn.

I never really thought that the Black Moon Family really wanted revenge. Wiseman/ Doom/Death Phantom is what influenced them. That's my take on the topic. Anyway, I am not sure why the Asteroids were never awakened in the Anime. Usagi, the others, and the Starlights could have used the help. Believe me they really could have.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:56 pm

lwf58:

That's from the anime, I imagine?

AshK:

Right. Usagi had been raised as a princess, and nothing else. Her mother didn't have her train or become a senshi like Usagi did for Chibi-Usa. And Usagi lost most (if not all of) her powers as a senshi when she became queen. (If I remember correctly.)
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Postby AshK1980 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:44 pm

Wouldn't surprise me if that happened Crescent. As I said, I never read the Manga. I also can't seem to find it anywhere.
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