Which charachters are you tired of seeing sanctified?

[claymade]

When Ryoga believed the breaking point could kill people, he used it freely against Ranma.

Yes, it's true that at first he wanted to kill Ranma. It's also quite obvious that he changes that stance over the course of the manga--as evidenced by all the times he doesn't kill Ranma given perfect opportunities to (after he beats Ranma in the Mark of the Battling God arc, after he beats Ranma in the Shi Shi Hokodan arc, etc.) and all the times he saves Ranma's life. (first Taro arc, Phoenix Mountain arc, etc.)

The only reason Ryoga wanted to be rid of the mark of the gods was because of how embarrassing it looked, otherwise he had no problems beating up, even perhaps killing Ranma with it.

Sure. Which is why he went ahead and killed Ranma with it when he thought that Ranma wasn't going to be able to beat him.

Except that he, y'know, didn't.

That arc is very strong evidence. Unfortunately, it's evidence exactly against the point you're trying to make with it.

Even when Ranma was weakened by the ultimate-strength moxibition, the most likely reasons he didn't want to kill Ranma that way was because it wouldn't prove he was better than Ranma, and it would probably make Akane dislike him if/when she found out, and he still wasn't opposed to beating Ranma up a bit in his weakened state.

On the basis of what evidence are you pulling these "most likely"s out of wherever? Even with the blessing of everyone around--including Ranma--to try and kill him in his weakened state, he quite simply can't do it, despite his best efforts--not until Ranma convinces him that he's raped Akane.

If you want to claim that everything that's said about Ryouga's motives in that whole arc is all one big deception, I suggest you supply some evidence for that speculation.

...and there is something in it for him in most cases.

Oh, please. He's willing to feed someone who had just tried to rob him, and then started to walk away without any repayment at all. He's willing to actively defend his arch-rival out of a dislike for seeing the weak get picked on.

Having him protect threatened innocents is entirely in character for him.

When Ranma pretended to be Ryoga's long-lost fiancee around the time of Ukyo's into, Ryoga tried to rape her as soon as they were out of sight, despite her protests and resistance once he started grabbing at her clothes and pushing her down.

Rape? All we see is him glomping a girl who was not only hitting on him, but who had just glomped him just a little bit ago.

Compare:
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book12/RM12-157.jpg

As you can see, the circumstances are almost exactly identical--except that this time the camera follows him. Crying "rape" is not merely going beyond the evidence, but is also, in fact spectacularly OOC from his established behaviour in similar situations.

While Kasumi, a character who is usually completely uncaring about the feelings of others and oblivious in social situations played cruel pranks while possessed by the oni, Ryoga went about trying to rape Akane.

...um, what?

http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book29/RM29-126.gif

------

No, Ryouga isn't perfect. Yes (like virtually all of the other characters in the series) he can be a bastard from time to time. But he also shows a definite capacity for remorse, and to learn from his mistakes.

The story of his growing friendship with Ranma is, in many ways, my favorite part of the whole manga. Compare the first volume of the manga with the last one--Ryogua going from being out for Ranma's blood, to the scene in Jusendo where, Akane believed dead and Ryouga himself grief-stricken, he still manages to hold himself together long enough to try and comfort Ranma.

There are many others (another favorite being the image of little P-chan somehow managing to drag Ranma to safety after he goes off the waterfall fighting Taro) but those two bookend the series quite nicely.

[FriendlyEL]

When Ryoga believed the breaking point could kill people, he used it freely against Ranma.

Well, first off as claymade mentioned he was only like that in the far beginning. If he stayed like that the entire manga, Ranma would have been dead during the beginning of the Mark of the Gods or Shi Shi Hokodan arc.

Another thing is I never understood why this is the ultimate example of Ryoga being an evil bastard that people say it is. Ranma accepted the fight aware that Ryoga had a move that was likely to blow him into tiny chunks if he didn't dodge quick. It was a new technique he learned that he was told is the end all way to drastically improve his chances of winning. Not that I'm saying it made it perfectly acceptable, but Ranma was a fellow challenger that was more than capable of defending himself.

ignored and endangered bystanders with his destructive and violent behavior

Are you talking specifically about the intro? If so, he did some pretty awful things that time, I won't argue that.

Of course, versus the guy who tossed knives and cursed water in a crowded park and would have turned some kids into ducks if Ranma didn't save them. Mousse gets some bashing for that (okay, more than some)...

But no one says nary a word about a girl who was just as careless about innocent bystanders in her introductory fight with Ranma as the other two were. She tossed a torrent of bladed spatulas and barely missed innocent students, and hit noncombatant bystanders with some sort of batter that was intended to cause devastating damage to a fighter of Ranma's skill level.

Then there's her friend who busts down a wall when for all she knew someone was on the other side to be crushed by it, then had no concern for the others in the room when she demolished the room with no regard of whether or not the girls inside were hurt by the debris then ran off with no apology. Why is no one mentioning when Shampoo did that?

Not to mention the dirty old man that tossed a Happo Fire Burst at Ranma when he was playing ball in gym so he could get some magic wisker to cure his baldness. There were alot of his classmates there who could have been killed by that. Last I remember, Happosai didn't show much guilt for that. Does anyone complain about him hurting innocents?

Last but not least, Kodachi didn't accidentally hit/almost hit innocent bystanders, she purposefully tossed explosives at as many boys at a circuis as she could in the hopes that one of the boys was her enemy's boyfriend.

In other words, he is not the only one that has been careless about hurting innocents. In fact, alot of these others I think deserve more demonization for this point in particular since he did at least feel sorry enough about it to allow Akane to take her fury out on him over the situation and even seemed to stop using an attack as a result.

I'm not saying that he hasn't done bad things, because I will be the first to agree that there were most definately times in the manga I thought he could be downright despicable (Intro, Koi Rod, beginning of Horizon, and the time he tried to kill the weakened Ranma in the Hiryu Shoten Ha story are ones in particular). Still, it is quite difficult to say that he is the single worst charachter in the series, what when there's others who act just as bad as he does at first except never show this nifty thing called charachter growth.

When Ranma pretended to be Ryoga's long-lost fiancee around the time of Ukyo's into, Ryoga tried to rape her as soon as they were out of sight, despite her protests and resistance once he started grabbing at her clothes and pushing her down.

I did not get that impression from that scene. Links?

[claymade]

Of course, versus the guy who tossed knives and cursed water in a crowded park and would have turned some kids into ducks if Ranma didn't save them. Mousse gets some bashing for that (okay, more than some)...

Don't forget the guy who was all making faces at him, saying "come and get me!" while leading him on said chase through crowded areas--instead of just taking him out in the relatively vacant area where the fight started.

...and hit noncombatant bystanders with some sort of batter that was intended to cause devastating damage to a fighter of Ranma's skill level.

Okay, now this is, I think, going way overboard in terms of looking for things to castigate her for. How, exactly, do you figure that "deep-dish glue" was "intended to cause devastating damage to a fighter of Ranma's skill level"? Especially since--as you mention--they were hit by it, and weren't devastatingly damaged?

Last I remember, Happosai didn't show much guilt for that. Does anyone complain about him hurting innocents?

Last but not least, Kodachi didn't accidentally hit/almost hit innocent bystanders, she purposefully tossed explosives at as many boys at a circuis as she could in the hopes that one of the boys was her enemy's boyfriend.

Last I checked, few people were seriously trying to "sanctify" either of the above. If those instances don't get reiterated frequently, I'd chalk that up more to the fact that no one feels a particular need to. There's no great mystery as to what they're capable of, and you'll find few that'll gainsay it.

In fact, alot of these others I think deserve more demonization for this point in particular since he did at least feel sorry enough about it to allow Akane to take her fury out on him over the situation and even seemed to stop using an attack as a result.

Indeed, he did show remorse about what happened, which is a point in his favor. In terms of using that to look down on other characters, though, the fact is that the thing that triggered the remorse was when something actually did go wrong--which didn't happen in a lot of the cases you're trying to compare it against.

In other words, if he'd only had the same kind of near-misses, he wouldn't have been any more apologetic than the others were.

...the time he tried to kill the weakened Ranma in the Hiryu Shoten Ha story...

I don't actually consider that instance to be that terribly despicable. It certainly proves his extreme gullibility to believe whatever Ranma happens to be trying to trick him into believing, even if it doesn't make much sense--but we'd already seen plenty of examples of that before.

As far as his reactions to what he believed had happened, though, I'd consider them to be--if not strictly justifiable--at least very understandable.

[Rei-chan]

Personally I like seeing people's different takes on characters. One person's evil is another persons pursuit of amusement. Still, of the characters that are played as saints that I dislike to see I think the list can be narrowed to three.

Kasumi, she is a backdrop and nothing more people. Her biggest action in the manga was to toss her skillet into the air when Akane came home with that hack job of a hair cut. She got some minor screen time with that little oni, but not enough to have a real character to even work with other than supposedly being so nice not even possesion can make her harmful.

Soun. This man will never give a darn about anything due to what he lost in the past and for him to get over it would take an act of Nabiki, Kami, and Hild together to achieve at the very least. Nothing short of maybe Akane dieing from the same thing as her mother might even get him out of his stupor long enough to be more than Genma's little helper. Admittedly, canon wise, he isn't quite as much of a whiner, but he still is lost in his past and barely knows anything about his daughters or the one he wants to marry them.

Shampoo, this girl is pretty much evil I think. She is extremely dangerous to most everyone in the series, including taking possible oppertunities to kill off her rivals that get interrupted. Admitedly the entire Amazon party are lethal and have a very obvious disregard for if they could kill anyone they consider a target, but Shampoo is the most dangerous and guilty one since everyone takes her a little too lightly.

If I had to mention any others, I guess the order would go Akane, Ranma, Mousse, Ryoga, and finally Nabiki. Yeah I know the arguements against her, personally I see the character a little differently but definately as no saint of any sort.

[Crim Zephi]

In my opinion, it is similar to the way people treat Severus Snape in Harry Potter, everybody romantices about him being a spy and pretending to hate the Gryffindors, and being remorseful about killing Dumbledore and harassing Harry which he has to do in order to convince the dark students that he is still a DE so they don't give away things to their parents.

No, just no, he would still be a DE if Voldemort hadn't killed Lily Potter or gone after her, even as much as he loved her he _still_ called her a 'mudblood' at least that once, he _really did_ hate Harry and show him that hate every time they interacted in the way he singled him out for harassment and unfair treatment. If Voldemort really wanted a spy, he would have excused Snape putting up an act for Dumbledore to pretend to really be remorseful about the dark and on Dumbledore's side by being a good teacher and treating students from all houses fairly, and convincing Voldemort this act was all that was needed to convince Dumbledore, and Voldemort would have noticed this if it weren't for his insane ego clouding his judgment, and Dumbledore should never have let him teach, join the order and protect him from the law, maybe, but send him to harass children most of the day and make a mockery of the house system and raise the next few generations of DE's and dark wizards, while reducing the number of future aurors with his prejudices, encouraging Slytherins to break the rules while punishing even the Gryffindors who do follow them? Doing the bare minimum to 'teach' Potions, but mostly just harassing the people who mess up and praising even unworthy Slytherins? Still acting like a greasy bastard even in Order Headquarters and alone with people?

Yes, we know he ultimately fought for the light in the end, and since the first book started, but Snape does not really lie morally on the side of the light, he is a dark wizard through and through, who loves the dark arts, and likes to cause pain and suffering, and only helped Harry because he was Lily's child, he was smart enough to know that Voldemort winning would suck even for the DE's once he found out how crazy the man really was, and even his love for Lily was more of an obsession related to the fact that she was one of the first people to be kind to him and one of the first magical friends he made, combined with her beauty. If the Evans' had been purebloods, and Lily was never a target of Voldemort, you can bet Snape would have never switched over to the light side and would have enjoyed all his time as a DE outside of being tortured and harassed and made to be Voldemort's toady himself. If Harry hadn't been Lily's son, no matter if he was the chosen one or not, Snape never would have helped him again as soon as he considered the life-debt from James repaid when he 'saved' Harry from the cursed broomstick, nor would he have switched sides in the first place, at least not until he was sufficiently unafraid of Voldemort, or his fears of Voldemort winning became greater than those of him losing.

Whats with all the demonizing all of a sudden? First off Sanpe's character is a classic example of point of view, from what we see of it. Snape's younger years were really not spectacular, we know that he was a Half Blood that was raised with the belief that muggles were inferior to pure bloods, or that may just be what he believed because of family problems. Then one day he meets Lily who was a completely different person with different ideals and the whole nine yards, and if nothing else he was fascinated about her, and granted they clashed a bit thanks to his bigotry, but if things had gone differently and Lilly and Snape had more contact then maybe his ideals would have changed?

Regardless thats not what happened. Snape went to slythren and Lilly to Griffindor and with the distance that added, since Griff's and snakes tend to not hang out, Snape easily fell into the wrong crowd, that did nothing but strengthen his beliefs. Also comes the point where Lilly cuts ties with Snape, in my humble opinion had she tried to talk him out of going off the deep end instead of just dismissing him in contempt then things again might have gone differently. Last, but certainly not least, is that Snape was the one to warn Dumbaldore that Voldemort was aiming for the Potters, even after Lilly snubbed him, and despite whatever his feelings are toward Harry, I don't think he outright abhors him like a lot of people believe, more of a strong dislike. In the end Snape is a bitter man that fell into the wrong crowd and has been paying for it ever since, it certainly makes the situation even sadder when Harry is the only one that gives him any true acknowledgment after he finds out the truth of the whole mess.

One more thing about this and then I'll shut up because this is really off topic, but I just couldn't let this drop so I apologize, If Snape truly was an evil person and hated Harry above everything else then he would not have followed Dumbaldore's plan by killing him and later putting the sword of Griffindore in the lake for Harry and Ron to find, and guided them to it, which would mean that everything would have been ten times harder then it turned out being.

[FriendlyEL]

Sorry for going overboard but my point was that it's hardly right that Ryoga is the one given the reputation of hurting / risking innocent bystanders. It seems that just about every one of the NWC members at one time or another do that, so why is it him of all people that is demonized for it?

How, exactly, do you figure that "deep-dish glue" was "intended to cause devastating damage to a fighter of Ranma's skill level"?

Because she was attacking him with it, and it did at least incapacitate him. From that you're right that I may have made an overstatement but it doesn't go against my point that she did hit innocent bystanders with something that was intended to at least hold down a martial artist.

Especially since--as you mention--they were hit by it, and weren't devastatingly damaged?

The same reason that in the circus people weren't devistatingly damaged by knives tossed at them or no one was from bladed bandanas tossed in a park, because it was taken as a joke.

I don't actually consider that instance to be that terribly despicable. It certainly proves his extreme gullibility to believe whatever Ranma happens to be trying to trick him into believing, even if it doesn't make much sense--but we'd already seen plenty of examples of that before.

As far as his reactions to what he believed had happened, though, I'd consider them to be--if not strictly justifiable--at least very understandable.

Well, true, at least with that scene the fact that Ranma was egging him on and wanting Ryoga to loose it does make it better. It still wasn't very nice to be accusing him of rape so groundlessly in the first place though.

Heh, this is getting pretty off topic.

[claymade]

...but it doesn't go against my point that she did hit innocent bystanders with something that was intended to at least hold down a martial artist.

To accidentally "hold down" a bystander with an adhesive is (just in my humble opinion) on a slightly different level of dangerousness from almost slashing bystanders with bladed weapons.

(And by "slightly" I mean that I fail to see how the two are seriously comparable.)

Yes, it's true that pretty much everybody in the Ranmaverse can be at times thoughtless of bystanders' safety. This instance, however, does not really deserve to be ranked among them.