Question about Sailor Pluto's role in most Ranma fuku-fics..

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Postby Technocrat_30 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Comartemis wrote:It's because everyone loves Tux-bashing. :D

Seriously though, Tux did have his moments in the anime, but he really got the short end of the stick as far as powers go (see also Hotaru, who can't kill anything smaller than a city block); he's only really at his best in his Endymion form which he almost never takes. There's also the fact that he's supposedly the girls' guardian, yet he never takes action until it's almost too late to help the girls; he's a sideline fighter, a cheerleader at best who occasionally--very occasionally--gets into the action; I can totally see Ranma not liking Tux because of his reluctance to fight for the girls instead of with the girls in spite of his self-proclaimed role as the girls' protector.

Then of course, Tux probably picks up an inferiority complex as soon as a real Man Among Men shows up on the scene. :P


Interesting. I guess in a way it would make sense. Technically, Tux isn't a senshi, and if he's the self-proclaimed guardian of the girls, than it would kind of seem logical that he would only throw in and get involved if the senshi really needed him. Of course, Tux could just be blessed with perfect timing, so whatever part of town he happens to be in when his 'Usagi's in trouble!' senses start tingling, he shows up just in the nick of time to turn the tide. I somehow can't picture Mamoru hanging out on the sidelines waiting for just the right time to make a perfect entrance.

On the other hand, when Ranma jumps into the fray, it's pretty much over. He finishes the fight. He's like that dude you played hockey with in high school who ALWAYS would take the puck from one end of the rink to the other BY HIMSELF. Passing or assisting be damned! Only I got what it takes to score this goal! The rest of you just sit back and watch the puck fly!

However, most fukufics get even more interesting when Ranma assumes a more mentoring role, ie training the senshi. Yeah, it's amusing when he casually knocks aside Makoto's martial arts like they're nothing, or when he calmly blows off Haruka's attacks with the same regard one shows to a child. But when he starts training them, and they actually get BETTER, that's when it gets cool. Because he's forced to do something he hadn't ever done before, TEACH.

In both the anime and manga Ranma never once took Akane's skills seriously. Worse than that, he never took Akane herself seriously as a martial artist. It makes a great source of conflict in fanfiction. Whether or not Ranma was like this because of his belief that girls were weak doesn't change the fact that Akane was good enough to take out thirty or more muscular and athletic dudes in front of her school every morning. In terms of skills alone, Akane would easily be able to wipe the mat with Haruka's and Makoto's faces if they were untransformed, and probably give them a serious run for their money if they were senshi'd up.

But I strongly doubt that Mamoru would be completely unmanned at the sight of Ranma's sheer prowess. If anything, Mamoru would probably recognize Ranma as a highly valuable ally. Mamoru was never portrayed as an idiot in either the anime or the manga. If anything, he was shown to be really intelligent and resourceful. Forcing the senshi to stand on their own would be completely up his alley because it would make them stronger. After all, Uranus and Neptune did the same sideline thing when they first showed up, only really getting involved if they decided that the other girls were completely outclassed or at least in the anime, jumping in to check the heart crystal for a talisman.
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Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:20 pm

I've watched the anime all the way through - missing only the first movie - and I rather like Tux. (Didn't stop me rooting for Seiya in Stars, though.) I didn't think he was annoyingly useless. If anything, he reminded me of Mercury: not terribly powerful in a linebacker kind of way, but damned useful. Mercury would find the youma's weak spot; often as not, Tux seemed to goose it.

Sometimes it seemed the youma et al were nervously waiting for the other shoe to drop. And Tux was the other shoe. Not necessarily deadly, but distracting - just what the youma or General didn't need.
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Postby Comartemis » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:26 pm

Yeah, it's amusing when he casually knocks aside Makoto's martial arts like they're nothing, or when he calmly blows off Haruka's attacks with the same regard one shows to a child.

Not for some of us; it may be accurate, but not all of us like Ranma even half as much as we like the Senshi, and watching them get smacked around like that doesn't sit well with me.

But when he starts training them, and they actually get BETTER, that's when it gets cool. Because he's forced to do something he hadn't ever done before, TEACH.

Can't say I've read too many where they showed noticeable improvement; the only two I can think of was one where it was Senshi and NWC vs the Saiyans, and Venus got killed in the first fight (boo! hiss!), and the second is one where Ranma becomes a god in a previous fic and powers up the Senshi, an alternate version of himself and his cursed form, Ryoga and a few others to battle DBZ's Androids; neither one was ever finished, but the second one showed lots of promise... Care to point me in the direction of some other good ones?

In terms of skills alone, Akane would easily be able to wipe the mat with Haruka's and Makoto's faces if they were untransformed, and probably give them a serious run for their money if they were senshi'd up.

*Grinds his teeth while a massive vein pops out on his forehead, but doesn't deny it*

But I strongly doubt that Mamoru would be completely unmanned at the sight of Ranma's sheer prowess.

Heh, someone's never read "Heir to the Empire" or "The Best of Times". :D
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Postby Technocrat_30 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:49 am

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Postby Comartemis » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:43 am

Watch those nested quotes, Techno; I don't think you've been shown the Rulebook yet, but nested quotes aren't allowed on this site.

That Ranma/Ukyo fic might be "Papa's Back" by someone I can't think of at the moment.

If you recall, Ranma had also started training the senshi in "Sailor Ranko".

No, I don't actually... it's been a while since I read Sailor Ranko.

I think Mamoru's reaction in "Process of Elimination" was closest to canon. He just sort of observed Ranma from the distance and only really reacted to him when Ranma threatened Usagi. Tux seems to be the type that would still throw himself in front of the sword to protect Usagi, even if he knew it was a fight he couldn't win.

Eh, I don't plan on reading that one; someone spoiled the ending for me, and I can't stand darkfics anyways. :(
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Postby Drawde » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:01 am

Comartemis wrote:That Ranma/Ukyo fic might be "Papa's Back" by someone I can't think of at the moment.


Nope. Papa's Back is by Innortal, and is technically a Ranma and Nabiki fic.
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Postby claymade » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:29 am

Technocrat_30 wrote:There was another story that I read recently where Ranma ended up marrying Ukyo, and Makoto was their child. But they vanished for eight years leaving her behind. I can't remember the name of that particular story... I'll have to look it up. Suffice to say when Ranma and Ukyo reappeared, Makoto's training in 'Anything Goes' recommenced. :-)

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Postby Zwzn » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:54 pm

Togashi Gaijin wrote:One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the dynamics of the Sailor Moon viewing audience in the States. A lot of folks base their knowledge of the Sailor Moon universe on the first three seasons of the anime. Season 4, SuperS, was - in Japan - the most popular, whereas in the States it easily qualified as the *least* popular and is often ignored as 'canon' source material. Season 5, Stars, was only available in fansubs and not readily available to the general populace. As a result, the main characterizations of Pluto come from the S season, where she does indeed give a very good impression of the "benevolent all-knowing manipulator". There are far too many points in the S season anime which indicate that Pluto knows *exactly* what's going on to ignore.
You then have things like the bio for Sailor Pluto on the Sailor Moon S Movie DVD published by Pioneer Geneon. It list Pluto's jobs as protect Chibi-Usa, guard the gates of time, and fix errors in the time stream.

You then have the fact Pluto went along with the plan Crystal Tokyo' king and queen had for dealing with the Dark Moon clan in season 2.

You then have things in season 5 that are odd envoloving Pluto or things she could have caused to happen.

Togashi Gaijin wrote:From this, it takes a very very small shift to get to the Evil Manipulative Pluto characterization. All you have to do is embrace the Illuminati Greater Agenda Conspiracy mindset - something that happens all too often in real life.
Pluto really is just seems to be following the orders given to her by her divine queen who likely is at least a little insane given Moon's actions at the end of season 4 and later.
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Postby Comartemis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:34 am

Pluto really is just seems to be following the orders given to her by her divine queen who likely is at least a little insane given Moon's actions at the end of season 4 and later.

How the hell do you justify calling Usagi insane, Zwzn? I've heard you spew a lot of crap about Usagi during my time here, but this is easily the most out-of-left-field accusation I've heard from you, above and beyond the Nazi Neo-Queen bullshit.

You know what? Forget it. I don't care what your justification is. It's clear to me now that I'm trying to debate with a head case, and I'm not going to waste my breath debating with you anymore. There is room for interpretation on a great many things in Sailor Moon, but Usagi's character is something that is beyond questioning; she is whiny, lazy, cowardly, and somewhat possessive, but she is also noble, caring, forgiving, and willing to sacrifice everything for her friends and loved ones.

If you can watch a show aimed at young children, with heroines those children are meant to look up to, admire, and respect, and see an insane, power-hungry Neo-Queen who brainwashes her subjects, stops at nothing to ensure she comes to power, AND DELIBERATELY SETS UP A LITTLE GIRL TO BE POSSESSED BY A DEMON, then all I can say is 'have fun being delusional.'
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Postby Zwzn » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:23 am

Pluto really is just seems to be following the orders given to her by her divine queen who likely is at least a little insane given Moon's actions at the end of season 4 and later.


Comartemis wrote:How the hell do you justify calling Usagi insane, Zwzn? I've heard you spew a lot of crap about Usagi during my time here, but this is easily the most out-of-left-field accusation I've heard from you, above and beyond the Nazi Neo-Queen bullshit.

You know what? Forget it. I don't care what your justification is. It's clear to me now that I'm trying to debate with a head case, and I'm not going to waste my breath debating with you anymore. There is room for interpretation on a great many things in Sailor Moon, but Usagi's character is something that is beyond questioning; she is whiny, lazy, cowardly, and somewhat possessive, but she is also noble, caring, forgiving, and willing to sacrifice everything for her friends and loved ones.
First calm down. At the end of season 4 Usagi jumped after Chibi-Usa who had been thrown off of an insanely high thing. Usagi did not have the powers needed to save Chibi-Usa unitl she was more then half way to the ground, and even then they almost went splat, but Usagi knew someone who did have powers that could save Chibi-Usa(Sailor Pluto). So, rather then defeat one of the few truely evil villains on the show who any one with half a brain would know would be coming back. Then you have the time in season 4 when Tuxy stays at the shrine Rei lives at. Usagi was never the the picture of perfect sanity from the first Ep on.

Comartemis wrote:If you can watch a show aimed at young children, with heroines those children are meant to look up to, admire, and respect, and see an insane, power-hungry Neo-Queen who brainwashes her subjects, stops at nothing to ensure she comes to power, AND DELIBERATELY SETS UP A LITTLE GIRL TO BE POSSESSED BY A DEMON, then all I can say is 'have fun being delusional.'
Please calm down. Neo Queen Serenity already knows the outcome of everything she sends Pluto to do. NQS has already lived through seasons 1, 2, 3, 4 , and 5. NQS needs to ensure the loops are repeated or Kaos wins. Usagi is not good at making plans, and she knows things turnout OK. Usagi also likely think only she could have stopped Kaos/Galaxia.

Hotaru was targeted by the thing that ended up possessing her father. The only thing Pluto did was with hold information, and make it appear she was trying to kill Hotaru. Usagi likely and reasonably thinks it was Chibi-Usa that let Hotaru defeat Nine.

Yes I believe NQS is thought of or maybe even worshipped as some sort of divine being, but that is because it was stated by Diamond, and Pluto makes statment that tell us Diamond was at least not completely wrong. We don't see enough about Crystal Tokyo in the anime to know more then they are sending people back in time because it was done in their past.

Personally I have always thought Crstal Tokyo would be more like Usagi's personal hell.

Suppose Nine was removed, what then? The Death Busters would have done everything in their power to get her back.
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Postby Comartemis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:02 am

*Sigh*

Goddammit, I can't resist responding to this...

At the end of season 4 Usagi jumped after Chibi-Usa who had been thrown off of an insanely high thing. Usagi did not have the powers needed to save Chibi-Usa unitl she was more then half way to the ground, and even then they almost went splat, but Usagi knew someone who did have powers that could save Chibi-Usa(Sailor Pluto).

Firstly, Usagi believes Pluto is dead at this point, so that's a dead end. Second, Usagi didn't have the power to save Chibi-Usa, but she knew someone who did; Pegasus. Jump after 'Usa, reach her, wake her up, "Twinkle Yell!", Pegasus saves the day. Without Usagi, there's no guarantee Chibi would've woken up on her own. If I'd had the strength of will to make that decision, I'd have done the same thing. Screw Nehelenia, saving my daughter is more important!

So, rather then defeat one of the few truely evil villains on the show who any one with half a brain would know would be coming back.

Wrong. Nehelenia sealed herself back into her mirror to maintain her eternal beauty; she had no intentions of coming back until Galaxia showed up and showed her how happy Usagi and Chibi-Usa were. If Galaxia hadn't come along, she would've stayed sealed forever. I still fail to see where you get 'insane' from this.

NQS needs to ensure the loops are repeated or Kaos wins. Usagi is not good at making plans, and she knows things turnout OK. Usagi also likely think only she could have stopped Kaos/Galaxia.

Well isn't this an interesting little contradiction. I seem to remember you saying exactly the opposite back on the first page of the Whipping Girl thread. Remember this?

She is caught in a predestination paradox by chioce. She does not care who it hurts.

What the heck are you trying to pull, Zwzn? I think my Troll Detector is going off.
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Postby Zwzn » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:04 am

Comartemis wrote: *Sigh*

Goddammit, I can't resist responding to this...

At the end of season 4 Usagi jumped after Chibi-Usa who had been thrown off of an insanely high thing. Usagi did not have the powers needed to save Chibi-Usa unitl she was more then half way to the ground, and even then they almost went splat, but Usagi knew someone who did have powers that could save Chibi-Usa(Sailor Pluto).

Comartemis wrote:Firstly, Usagi believes Pluto is dead at this point, so that's a dead end. Second, Usagi didn't have the power to save Chibi-Usa, but she knew someone who did; Pegasus. Jump after 'Usa, reach her, wake her up, "Twinkle Yell!", Pegasus saves the day. Without Usagi, there's no guarantee Chibi would've woken up on her own. If I'd had the strength of will to make that decision, I'd have done the same thing. Screw Nehelenia, saving my daughter is more important!
I could have sworn Chibi talked to Pluto. They would have needed the staff has to use with the gates. right? When was Usagi told Pluto was dead?

For Pluto to save Chibi-Usa is to have opened a portal before she did time stop. The Pluto that did time stop was from Crystal Tokyo. Usagi knew Pluto was there in the future.

Usagi never planned to do a twinkle yell as far as I could tell. What I remember is Moon trying to wake Chibi up so Chibi could use the Golden crystal to somehow save them. She seemed to me to come up with that plan after the jump.

So, rather then defeat one of the few truely evil villains on the show who any one with half a brain would know would be coming back.

Comartemis wrote:Wrong. Nehelenia sealed herself back into her mirror to maintain her eternal beauty; she had no intentions of coming back until Galaxia showed up and showed her how happy Usagi and Chibi-Usa were. If Galaxia hadn't come along, she would've stayed sealed forever. I still fail to see where you get 'insane' from this..
I guess we view Nefy differently. I see Nefy comming back for revenge some how, some day Galaxia or no Galaxia. Not stopping a willfully evil thing like the way I see Nehelenia when you have the chance means you are willing to let billions die for one life.

NQS needs to ensure the loops are repeated or Kaos wins. Usagi is not good at making plans, and she knows things turnout OK. Usagi also likely think only she could have stopped Kaos/Galaxia.

Well isn't this an interesting little contradiction. I seem to remember you saying exactly the opposite back on the first page of the Whipping Girl thread. Remember this?

She is caught in a predestination paradox by chioce. She does not care who it hurts.

Comartemis wrote:What the heck are you trying to pull, Zwzn? I think my Troll Detector is going off.
I was trying to paint Usagi in the best light as possilbe to tell you the truth. USagi is very poorly skilled when it comes to planning things and tactics. I do think that with the resources the senshi have the five seasons should have been different, and much more in their faver. Even if Usagi was to try to find a different way Pluto might stop her because of Pluto's jobs in the anime. Protect Chibi-Usa, Guard the Gates of time, and correct errors in the time stream.
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Postby Comartemis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:20 am

I could have sworn Chibi talked to Pluto.

You must be thinking of the incantation Chibi used with her little key to try to get back to the future right at the beginning of Stars. I think she was invoking the power of the gates, not calling on Pluto, becuase I distinctly recall her invoking the name of Chronos.

When was Usagi told Pluto was dead?

Probably sometime after the battle with P90. The point is she wasn't around to lend a hand and Usagi couldn't just let Chibi fall to her death hoping that Pluto might show up in the nick of time.

Usagi never planned to do a twinkle yell as far as I could tell. What I remember is Moon trying to wake Chibi up so Chibi could use the Golden crystal to somehow save them.

I don't remember that episode accurately enough to comment on that, but Hitoshi Doi's episode guide says Usagi used the GC to transform into Serenity and overcome the wind resistance that was keeping her from making contact with Chibi. I do know that Pegasus came when Chibi called for him. Whether Usagi was thinking with her heart instead of her head or if she'd had a plan in mind when she jumped is open to interpretation.

I guess we view Nefy differently.

Not so much; if Nehl ever figured out on her own that Moon and Chibi were alive, she'd come back for revenge without a doubt. The problem with that scenario is that she sealed herself away from the outside world; unless an outside force came along and broke the seal, she'd have no way of knowing Moon and Chibi were alive, so she'd have no reason to go back to Earth.

I do think that with the resources the senshi have the five seasons should have been different, and much more in their faver.

Oh, so it's just a matter of the Senshi being stronger, more tactically-minded fighters? I can dig that; I do my best to portray them that way in the fanfics I write.
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