Question about the completeness of the post-Beryl reset

[Zwzn]

Usagi was losing her sanity after R.
Usagi has a huge ego. Falling into that same trap of believing she was perfect after all the time Pluto must have set up things so she would win would be easy for someone as dumb as her.
Usagi nor Tuxy would need be told. The outers do stuff all the time that they know Usagi would not aprove of. The hole reason the outers support Usagi after the grail was summoned is CT.
Usagi would rather die and let the big bad of the year ate everyone's souls then be without Chibi-Usa.

Unless you can cite specific examples of Usagi's huge ego, Usagi going insane, the Outers talking about their evil plans for the creation of Crystal Tokyo, etc, etc, there is little else that can be said here.

The time Mimete messed with the daemon maker. The Professor was sitting in front of his house. The inners had been called, and showed up. Professor Tomoe doesn't seem to know who they are, and Moon seems to be very ofended by this, and goes into a big speach. Then Mars smacks her on the back of her head.
It basicly seemed like this to me:
Moon: How dare you not know who I am. I am the greatest thing sence sliced bread.
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Before the grail is summoned the do alot of under handed things we know Usagi did not appove of or would not have.
Then they try to kill Hotaru knowing their princess does not approve.
S is one big Usagi does not approve after another. Heck if they had never summoned the grail P90 would have never found the portal to the Earth.
Stars
They needlessly open fire on the star lights.
Need I add kill Saturn and Pluto?

As far as Usagi letting the big bad 'eat everyone's souls,' I can only surmise that we didn't actually watch the same anime. Unless the the dub vastly different from the subtitled version? I've got every episode of Sailor Moon subtitled. I suppose that *could* account for the vast differences between us, but I doubt it.

She let Nefy get away at the end of SuperS to save Chibi-Usa. It also shows Moon to be somewhat insane because she couldn't fly untill moment before impact. There where several ways she could have delt with Chibi-Usa falling, most would have been safer.

When it comes down to it, Usagi is very nearly unfailingly good. She repeatedly throughout the series, she rejects the very notion of using evil means to achieve a good end. One of the big sources of conflict in Sailor Moon S is that the Outer Senshi are willing to sacrifice innocent people in order to save the world, and Usagi and the other Inner Senshi are not. In Sailor Stars, the very same thing occurs: Usagi *doesn't* compromise her morals, and that's why she succeeds where the Outer Senshi fail.

Sad that not compromising her morals didn't help Saturn. Saturn likely could have at least hurt Galaxia/Chaos even without her weapon, but Uranus and Neptune tend to disregard facts that don't fit what they believe to be true unless shoved down their throats, and they seem to have no problems about hurting people for their own gain. Crystal Tokyo is the only reason really they start to "play nice" with the inners.
Nefy was the only big bad in Sailor Moon that was not mind controled. She did everything of her own free will. This is shown clearly in Eps in SuperS.
If Queen Metallia/Beryl, Wiseman/Death Phantom, and Master Pharaoh 90
deservered to be destroyed then why not Chaos and Nefy.
Then we have NQS making it so the events of R take place. All so she can have her darling Chibi-Usa, Her hansome prince, and a big throne.
Possessed her younger self.
She brain washed her own daughter just as her daughter was throwing off another's brainwashing at the end of R.
Brain washing and mindcontrol is only evil if the other guy do it.

Pluto says the city is DIVINE in S. This would imply to me that NQS and NKE are believed to have divine wisdom if not be gods.

This might very well be the source of the problem. The whole thing does have a touch of the divine about it, doesn't it? If you view that as being arrogance and pride, an impudent mortal pretending to be something that is beyond her rightful place, it casts things in a very different light than if you posit that Neo Queen Serenity might actually *be* a goddess.

Judging from what I remember being shown in the anime the senshi are really nothing more then school girls with high tech weapons that that afect what we might call meta physical things refered to as star seeds. This gives them powers and a longer life span. Magic is just tech taken to a point of wich you can't figure out how it works.
With out their toys the anime Senshi are just normal if above average girls.
Canonly Saturn is the only one with any real power, and Saturn has far more control then the parasitic senshi of the Moon.

[P.H. Wise]

Moon: How dare you not know who I am. I am the greatest thing sence sliced bread.

A few scattered moments of immaturity do not a meglomaniac make. Nobody ever accused Usagi of being a particularly mature person. At that point, she's what, 16 years old?

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Before the grail is summoned the do alot of under handed things we know Usagi did not appove of or would not have.

If by 'underhanded' you mean 'are willing to sacrifice innocent people to save the world, and constantly agonize over it,' you are correct. Just because they believe that some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved doesn't mean they're happy about it.

Then they try to kill Hotaru knowing their princess does not approve.

As far as the Outer Senshi knew at the time, it was either kill Hotaru or let the world get destroyed. Neither is a good alternative, but one is worse than the other. Not to mention, at this point int he series, the Outer Senshi did not acknowledge the authority of the Princess. That happened only at the very end of S. As far as they knew, Usagi wasn't their ruler, she was an immature but lovable girl who was far too naive for her own good.

Heck if they had never summoned the grail P90 would have never found the portal to the Earth.

Ironic how that works out, isn't it? Usagi's compassion used against her, and despite the pleas of the Outers not to give the Holy Grail to Mistress 9, she does so anyways, in the hopes that it will be enough to heal Hotaru.

They needlessly open fire on the star lights.

I wouldn't call beating on the Bondage Senshi 'needless...'

Need I add kill Saturn and Pluto?

Which Saturn and Pluto agreed to beforehand, hoping to give Uranus and Neptune a chance to get close enough to destroy Galaxia with her own weapons, I might add.

Sad that not compromising her morals didn't help Saturn. Saturn likely could have at least hurt Galaxia/Chaos even without her weapon, but Uranus and Neptune tend to disregard facts that don't fit what they believe to be true unless shoved down their throats, and they seem to have no problems about hurting people for their own gain. Crystal Tokyo is the only reason really they start to "play nice" with the inners.

Actually, I don't recall Uranus and Neptune ever talking about Crystal Tokyo. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that it was never really something they discussed. The reason they started to "play nice" with the Inners is that Usagi finally won their respect.

She let Nefy get away at the end of SuperS to save Chibi-Usa. It also shows Moon to be somewhat insane because she couldn't fly untill moment before impact. There where several ways she could have delt with Chibi-Usa falling, most would have been safer.

Look at it from the perspective of a mother whose only child is in danger. It takes on a whole different kind of focus.
It doesn't make Sailor Moon insane that she reacted emotionally and leaped down to save her daughter. Rather, it shows that she loves her daughter, it once again underlines her unwillingness to sacrifice anyone 'for the greater good', and it demonstrates exactly how far her relationship with Chibi-Usa has come since 'the pink spore' first arrived back in R.

She brain washed her own daughter just as her daughter was throwing off another's brainwashing at the end of R.
Brain washing and mindcontrol is only evil if the other guy do it.

Restorative magic does not equal brain washing and mind control.
On the subject of the possible divine origin of the Senshi, I would point out that in the manga, Pluto is identified as being 'the daughter of Chronos,' which would make her a demigoddess at the very least. Even in the anime, Usagi is identified as 'the true Messiah,' which carries some definite religious overtones. And while the Senshi are named after the various planets, the planets themselves bear the names of gods. Serenity and Endymion has roots in the myth of the man who fell in love with the Moon Goddess. I could go on.
Seriously, whatever anime it is that you've been watching in place of Sailor Moon, I want it, because it sounds much cooler. Brain washing, mind control, secret plots to rule the world? Ancient parasitical spirits possessing modern humans? Dang. That sounds awesome.
In any case, it is clear that there shall be no commerce between your viewpoint and mine. Perhaps we should simply agree to disagree and move on, as this has gotten very far off topic.

[claymade]

Could use some deja vu triggered memory recognition. Or even not have it effect some characters either to range from primary target area(juban) or due to their highly trained bodies recognizing an outside influence and overcomming it in a short time. Which would then lead to questions of the source of such wide spread memory loss, especially for Happosai and Cologne who probably wouldnt be comfortable with the implications.

Good ideas! I also have another hole card too, due to the specific nature of just what went on during that time period in the fic, that would almost force one character to retain their memories if the reset wasn't absolutely complete.
But I think I like your ideas better, if I can get them to work--it'd be a much cleaner and simpler way of dealing with the annoying hurdle. I'll have to see if I can make it fit.

[Seraphim]

On the subject of the possible divine origin of the Senshi, I would point out that in the manga, Pluto is identified as being 'the daughter of Chronos,' which would make her a demigoddess at the very least. Even in the anime, Usagi is identified as 'the true Messiah,' which carries some definite religious overtones. And while the Senshi are named after the various planets, the planets themselves bear the names of gods. Serenity and Endymion has roots in the myth of the man who fell in love with the Moon Goddess. I could go on.

Queen Serenity was known on Earth as Selene, and Artemis has called Minako an incarnation of Aphrodite.
You could also draw parallels between Usagi/Serenity and Kaguya-hime of Taketori Monogatari.
EDIT: Oops!

[Zwzn]

A few scattered moments of immaturity do not a meglomaniac make. Nobody ever accused Usagi of being a particularly mature person. At that point, she's what, 16 years old?

It show she has a proble and it is likely only going to get worse if you ask me.

If by 'underhanded' you mean 'are willing to sacrifice innocent people to save the world, and constantly agonize over it,' you are correct. Just because they believe that some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved doesn't mean they're happy about it.

It is how they did it. Not that they did. Also they didn't seem to even try to find another way.

As far as the Outer Senshi knew at the time, it was either kill Hotaru or let the world get destroyed. Neither is a good alternative, but one is worse than the other. Not to mention, at this point int he series, the Outer Senshi did not acknowledge the authority of the Princess. That happened only at the very end of S. As far as they knew, Usagi wasn't their ruler, she was an immature but lovable girl who was far too naive for her own good.

All they saw was a daemon holding the silenece glaive, and attacking and killing. For all they knew killing Saturn would make it happen.

Ironic how that works out, isn't it? Usagi's compassion used against her, and despite the pleas of the Outers not to give the Holy Grail to Mistress 9, she does so anyways, in the hopes that it will be enough to heal Hotaru.

It was Neo Queen Serenity's plan. That is why Pluto and Chibi-Usa where placed where they where, and had to orders they did.
Summoning the grail starts waking up Saturn(proof how little U&N knew of Saturn.), and giving her the grail finishes it. If you don't want Saturn don't summon the grail.

I wouldn't call beating on the Bondage Senshi 'needless...'

It is not smart to open fire on people when words would work, and you are not sure if they are friend or foe.

Which Saturn and Pluto agreed to beforehand, hoping to give Uranus and Neptune a chance to get close enough to destroy Galaxia with her own weapons, I might add.

Quotes please? I don't remember that little talk. the look on Saturn said she was read for round 2, and did not know the plan. When U&N where killing her she had a look of shock and betrayal. Saturn didn't seem to know the plan.
Below are who seems more powerful to me
Anime Hotaru>Sailor Moon
Sailor Saturn>Super Sailor Moon
Super Sailor Saturn>Eternal Sailor Moon
Sailor Saturn also seems to have more control of her power, and does not need her weapon to attack.

Actually, I don't recall Uranus and Neptune ever talking about Crystal Tokyo. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that it was never really something they discussed. The reason they started to "play nice" with the Inners is that Usagi finally won their respect.

It was just before Hotaru baged her first daemon. Uranus was driving Chibi-Usa and Hotaru home. Uranus as the future priness.

Look at it from the perspective of a mother whose only child is in danger. It takes on a whole different kind of focus.

So, Moon jumped after Chibi when the only way to save her was to be able to fly or open a portal to some place safe. Pluto could do the portal. Moon could not fly until after she and Chibi almost hit the ground.

It doesn't make Sailor Moon insane that she reacted emotionally and leaped down to save her daughter. Rather, it shows that she loves her daughter, it once again underlines her unwillingness to sacrifice anyone 'for the greater good', and it demonstrates exactly how far her relationship with Chibi-Usa has come since 'the pink spore' first arrived back in R.

It depends on how you look at it. Anyone who like the Spore is insane or very lonely IMO.

Restorative magic does not equal brain washing and mind control.

Restorative magic does not add memories that you could not have had. Dark Lady was doing just fine by herself. No spell is SEEN being cast on her. Pluto could have done it.

On the subject of the possible divine origin of the Senshi, I would point out that in the manga, Pluto is identified as being 'the daughter of Chronos,' which would make her a demigoddess at the very least.

Saturn is another name for Chronos, right? Hotaru may be Pluto's mom.

Even in the anime, Usagi is identified as 'the true Messiah,' which carries some definite religious overtones.

By Uranus and Neptune. We the viewer know it was Hotaru.
The only one who knew for certain was Hotaru's possessed father. He was right about everything else, and he knew it was Hotaru. Uranus and Neptune didn't even know what would happen when they found a talismen. Let alone how to get it. Moon doesn't even fit what Uranus and Neptune said would be a sign of the messiah was.
According to my dictionar & thesaurus
Messiah can just mean great leader. In this way of using the word it is not capitalized.
Sovereign means supreme ruler, supreme, or independent.

Seriously, whatever anime it is that you've been watching in place of Sailor Moon, I want it, because it sounds much cooler. Brain washing, mind control, secret plots to rule the world? Ancient parasitical spirits possessing modern humans? Dang. That sounds awesome.

Think of all the people that had to ignor Chibi-Usa just so she could go to school. Pluto seems to have her own place in the present, but she is from C.T.. Blackmail, brainwashing, forgery. Take your pick. Why does Chibi-Usa have a brain washing device in LunaP?

[Tovath]

Also [Haruka and Michiru] didn't seem to even try to find another way.

They were under some time constrants you know and they didn't have a very complate picture of the situation

It show she has a proble and it is likely only going to get worse if you ask me.

or it could mean she hasn't finshed growing up yet

It was Neo Queen Serenity's plan. That is why Pluto and Chibi-Usa where placed where they where, and had to orders they did.

You have heard of Oqentem's(sp?) it says that the simplest answer is probly the right one. your answer seem to violate that.

[Metroidvania]

Gentlemen, I don't mean to intrude/nag, but as P.H. Wise has acknowledged, this is getting off topic.
If this is to be continued, to avoid moderation for off-topicness, might I suggest moving this to the CT topic in the SM section?