Ethics of creating a fanfic archive

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

As much as the US would like their copyright laws do not apply to the rest of the world... (especially as the stupid mouse keeps on trying to remain copyrighted)

It's arguable whether Disney is trying to protect the Mouse, or the Mouse is point-rodent for protecting all sound movies. They started at about the same time.

I'm of the opinion that copyright should hold for ten or twenty years, and after that, only as long as the copyright-holder keeps valid contact information with the copyright office. The maximum term keeps getting extended, and will keep getting extended, but the creator should have some responsibilities too.

[Togashi Gaijin]

>>ALL fanfics are protected by copyright laws in the US
Extremely untrue...

As much as the US would like their copyright laws do not apply to the rest of the world... (especially as the stupid mouse keeps on trying to remain copyrighted)

Unless you live in a country which is not a signator of the Berne Convention, and the vast majority of countries are signators, any work created in the US is covered by both US and internation copyrights. The Berne Convention affords a set level of automatic implicit copyright protection and also permits a "greater level of protection" to any signator country who's copyright laws are stricter than the international ones. US laws also provide automatic, implicit copyright protections to all published works.

So, is your country a Berne signator? Also, have you actually read Title 17 and the Berne Conventions? (I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't be parroting the typical urban myth lines that I'm reading from your posts.)

[Yrael]

Unless you live in a country which is not a signator of the Berne Convention, and the vast majority of countries are signators, any work created in the US is covered by both US and internation copyrights. The Berne Convention affords a set level of automatic implicit copyright protection and also permits a "greater level of protection" to any signator country who's copyright laws are stricter than the international ones. US laws also provide automatic, implicit copyright protections to all published works.

So, is your country a Berne signator? Also, have you actually read Title 17 and the Berne Conventions? (I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't be parroting the typical urban myth lines that I'm reading from your posts.)

A few things here...

Though the Berne Convention was signed by a large majority of the world's countries, very, very few of them actually enforce it, as it's an agreement, not a law. Think Sweden (Yarr, me hearties!), China (you can walk down just about any street in Bejing and buy dirt cheap American DVDs), etc. Even in countries that do recognize and enforce it, the copyright is limited to the term length of that country, rather than the ridiculous number of years that US copyrights last.

There's also a sidenote concerning your original post that fanfics are copyright protected only so far as fair use and parody apply - after all, a fanfic cannot claim a copyright since their work is a derivative work based on an existing copyright.

[Battlekrome]

any work created in the US is covered by both US and internation copyrights.

Considering most of the original creation of anime/manga is Japanese... shouldn't we be following their copyright laws?

[mondu_the_fat]

if unable to contact author you add it anyway and give option for them to remove it (opt-out)

It shouldn't be the author's job to police the internet. What, you aren't guilty unless you get caught?

[Togashi Gaijin]

- after all, a fanfic cannot claim a copyright since their work is a derivative work based on an existing copyright.

That is not true. Under US law in the case of derivative works, the principle of cascading permissions and protections apply.

In a derived work, the originating copyright holder has the right to prohibit or permit the distribution of the derived work in toto. However, that does not imply ownership of the derived work. The author of the derived work still owns copyright to all portions which can be considered original material, which are any sections which are not a direct transcription, translation, or paraphrasing of the originating work or portions thereof.

If a deriving author simply "replays the scenes" of the originating work (changing minor details or rewording the scenes without changing them substansively), then he or she gains no protection under copyright. If, however, the deriving author uses just the background and characters, s/he owns copyright to the new material (original works) which is dependent on the originating author's permission for the use of those characters and background. In the case of derived work which contain aspects of both, a mix of copyright ownership applies.

In no case can the originating author claim ownership of a derived work which contains original material based upon the "master". The originating author can prohibit the distribution and publication of the derived work, but the ownership of the derived work is based upon the amount of original material contained.

In other words, both Takahashi and Takeuchi have the right to limit or prohibit me from publishing my Relatively Absent fanfic, but they don't have the right to publish or distribute it themselves - because I own the copyright to all portions which are not a direct copy or translation of scenes from Ranma or Sailor Moon. My copyright is dependent on their say so, but it is still MY copyright.

Considering most of the original creation of anime/manga is Japanese... shouldn't we be following their copyright laws?

Most ethical fanfic authors do exactly that when applicable. In Japan, derived works are generally permitted unless specifically prohibited, so most fanfic authors don't bother seeking explicit permission. In the US, the opposite holds true - derived works are prohibited unless explicitly allowed. In my case, I follow Japanese laws regarding the use of the characters & background from Japanese source material, but the "derived copyright" on the original portions of Relatively Absent follows US laws, because that is my country of origin.

Since this whole discussion was started over the topic of archiving fanfics, as opposed to authoring them, I have every right (as an author of derived works in the US) to expect that anyone who wishes to archive any of my fanfics would be required to ask my explicit permission before doing so. Whether you can get a hold of me or not doesn't change that and is actually beside the point, and saying "I did my best" isn't a valid reason.

[Yrael]

This gives a far better explanation of how the copyright issue works in fanfiction that I could possibly summarise here. The bottom line is that any parts that contain copyrighted characters/portrayals that you do not own are not copyrightable. Thus, while Relatively Absent (which I love, I might add) would not be copyrightable as whole, the characters such as Eiko, Midori, and the other orginal characters within would be.

Back to the original topic of linking/archiving, however, given that juandelacruz specified ethically, I would be inclined to side with Ellen and Togashi - best to get permission before doing so. It's just the right thing to do.

[WG_Writer]

Personally I agree, However...

There is the case of Fire's Sailor Ranko... If not for Burger Becky's take over of it from Fire then it would be likely lost now.

I would have to say if the author cannot be reached and the fanfic is 10 years old and not on a major archive site (ff.net) then look at it on a case to case basis.

[Drawde]

It shouldn't be the author's job to police the internet. What, you aren't guilty unless you get caught?

Fanfiction is technically illegal, but ONLY if the author enforces it. It's entirely up to the author (or publisher, depending) to determine how they want fanfiction handled. And I've seen published authors state that once they've decided to not allow fanfiction, they have to actively enforce it, or they risk being considered to have abandoned the rule/copyright (not certain which).

In other words, you can write fanfiction on a series, up until the author states that they don't allow fanfiction, or asks you to remove your fic.

Considering most of the original creation of anime/manga is Japanese... shouldn't we be following their copyright laws?

In the case of foreign works brought to the U.S., I believe that the other country's copyright laws come first

Japanese LAWS are pretty much the same as the U.S. In Japan, CUSTOM also says that's pretty much all fanfiction is all right, so the laws are hardly ever invoked, unless you're trying to make a lot more profit off of it than covering expenses for printing it.

On the question of abandoning copyrights, what is the U.S. law on it?

[Togashi Gaijin]

On the question of abandoning copyrights, what is the U.S. law on it?

An unexpired US copyright is never lost or abandoned unless the work is deliberately and explicitly released into the Public Domain by the copyright owner. Being in or out of print makes no difference to the validity of the copyright itself.

[TerraEpon]

I'm not going to take a stance for or against here at this point, but one thing that doesn't seem to have been brought up -- unlike most copyrighted work, authors of fanfics are offering up their work free for the taking in the FIRST place.
Outside the rudeness issue, is there a legal difference between an author's authorized place to DL, and one that isn't -- but otherwise is the same in the fact that both allow you to goto a site and read it?

I think it may be prudent to bring up the fact that Archive.org will often retain text files, even ones specifically taken down. Since it was deemed legal that they are allowed to do that, why would it be illegal to do the same thing actively instead of passively?

I'm genuinely curious about what people think.

[Battlekrome]

An unexpired US copyright is never lost or abandoned unless the work is deliberately and explicitly released into the Public Domain by the copyright owner. Being in or out of print makes no difference to the validity of the copyright itself.

Which means public domain is basically dead
I find that fanfiction works that are easy to find you shouldn't have to archive
but ironically will be easiest to get permission to put in your archive

However... some fics i have on my computer you probably could only find by diving into internet archives or ffml archives
both of which may or may not be complete

Now the emails for these authors probably are not up to date let alone checked often
(spam being the unstoppable juggernaut of evil vs posting your email on the net)

the dilemma is do you let these works disappear from the net essentially permantly?
or do you archive them?

Since Fire has been brought up as an example

His main fics are available on his FF.net page... BUT bubble burst and such are not... (interesting raac has bubble burst for those interested in it. R1/2 / BGC fusion / alteverse)

as for being the authors job to police the net as far as the DMCA says Yes it is... (however this is in court atm... Imagine how quickly youtube would crash and burn as a site if EVERY clip uploaded had to be checked vs copyright)

There is a whole section on how to format takedown notices in the DMCA (youtube deals with alot of them)

[Drawde]

Which means public domain is basically dead

Not quite. Anything with an expired copyright is public domain. Which means many old stories can be freely used, such as the Oz series. Newer ones, on the other hand, it's debatable on whether or not they'll ever enter public domain, since the duration of copyrights keeps getting upped. Always just as one of the rich owners such as Disney are just about to loose one of their copyrights. They're the ones that keep getting it changed.

[Battlekrome]

Anything with an expired copyright is public domain

catch is of course that nothing past the mouse has had its copyright expired

as an interesting side note one of the last movies to fall outside the mouse copyright fun is Steamboat Bill with buster keaton a great movie was basically remade scene for scene in Steamboat Willie which as we know is the first mouse flick...

[Togashi Gaijin]

I'm not going to take a stance for or against here at this point, but one thing that doesn't seem to have been brought up -- unlike most copyrighted work, authors of fanfics are offering up their work free for the taking in the FIRST place.

Outside the rudeness issue, is there a legal difference between an author's authorized place to DL, and one that isn't -- but otherwise is the same in the fact that both allow you to goto a site and read it?

Yes, there is. When an author posts one of his/her stories on the web (known as "self-publishing"), he is acting as both originator (author) and distributor (publisher). Control of distribution is the whole point of copyright law. Whether a charge is made for access to a published work (buying a book, for instance) or not, it basically affects the copyright in regards to the level of punishment assessed on infringement.

When a reader posts someone else's story or passes a copy along to someone else, s/he is no longer simply a reader of the work but is now acting as a publisher/distributor as well. A whole different set of rules apply under copyright in regards to a publisher/distributor as opposed to a consumer/user of the works.

Just because something is made available for free, doesn't mean that it is public domain.