Ethics of creating a fanfic archive

Talk about all other fanfictions in this forum.

Postby lwf58 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:55 pm

Ran wrote:It always amazes me that some fanfic authors and fans get annoyed at fanfic that are based upon other fanfics without permission. Since essentially that is what they did with the original series/work the fic was based upon.


It depends. If you are borrowing settings or story situations as a base for a new story, it's one thing. Example: I wrote a small series of short stories revolving around why Kasumi borrowed books from Doctor Tofu. Another fan author wrote a story based on the same idea. That was fine, and I thought his story was better than mine. I even included his story with mine when I posted them on the internet, with his permission. But if I created original characters and they suddenly started appearing in someone else's stories without permission, that would be another thing entirely.

There's a big difference when it comes to pro author versus fan author. Fan fiction based on a professional's work is somewhat legitimate, because the pro profits from his or her storytelling. Fans have some rights as to what they can do with the pro's work because it's a commodity; that's called "fair use", and is a return on the fact that somewhere along the line, they are paying him or her for the story. Fan authors make no profit on their original work or characters, so there is no "fair use" for those.
Last edited by lwf58 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
lwf58
User avatar
Site Master
Posts: 2201
 

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:57 am

And there's an even worse thing that some of the more parasitic authors who use other peoples stories will do. There are stories out there which have taken scenes whole sale. Sometimes not even editing any of it beyond making sure it has a time to take place in their story and claiming it was always a part of their work without crediting the person who it actually came from.
Image
Spamville Character ProfileArchived Current Senshi of Ophelia (Uranus VII).
My Console Video Games
Spokavriel
User avatar
Eternal Power Senshi
Posts: 47773
 

Postby Makoto » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:18 am

I wasn't going to say it. :(

I've had someone try to basically take a series I'd written, slap a videogame character into it in an attempt to turn it into a game crossover, and then rerelease it under his pen-name, more or less.
Still alive, but failing miserably at dodging Real Life.
My webpage has returned! http://www.fdnest.com/~makoto/
My Fanfiction.net profile: https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1473284/
Makoto
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 862
 

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:25 am

Sorry about bringing up a painful memory. I just feel that ignoring any of the bad aspects might make someone think it's alright or not worth the mention. I can't remember the title but I think I might know the story that was done with.

And really if someone doesn't understand why someone else would get mad about it. Maybe they just hadn't heard of these more painful situations.
Image
Spamville Character ProfileArchived Current Senshi of Ophelia (Uranus VII).
My Console Video Games
Spokavriel
User avatar
Eternal Power Senshi
Posts: 47773
 

Postby Makoto » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:51 am

It wasn't that it was a painful memory; I was merely debating whether or not I should bring up the point about plagiarism. I'd decided (at least for the moment) not to.

Well, if it helps, the attempt happened before the advent of ff.net. :/

Maybe I should also include the people who 'translated' Sailor Moon stories to match the DiC version of the episodes, shortly after it started airing. I think there's some versions of my stories somewhere out there that have been modified, though I don't think I gave permission for them to do that.

As for my stories, I'll let anyone archive them as long as the stories remain unmodified, they post a link to my pages so someone can grab the latest version of a story, or newer chapters/parts, if they want... and tell me where the archive is, so I can visit. ^_^
Still alive, but failing miserably at dodging Real Life.
My webpage has returned! http://www.fdnest.com/~makoto/
My Fanfiction.net profile: https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1473284/
Makoto
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 862
 

Postby juandelacruz » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:56 am

PCHeintz72 wrote:It need not be near that bad if you can merely link to the ones that are elsewhere... As my prior post indicates, far and away the bulk of them do in fact still exist on fanfiction.net... he only had overall a small percentage of them libraried or hosted locally to his site.

However, not all those authors are able to be contacted... a few even he did not have emails for them... and some have disappeared from the net.


I suppose I could have the site do just that, be more of a cataloguer/indexer/organizer of fanfics so readers will be able to find specific fanfics easily, and then simply supply links to the fanfics. The disadvantage is it would be more prone to link rot, which is one of the things I am trying to prevent.

Also, will authors be amenable to this linking to their stories?
juandelacruz
Senshi Candidate
Posts: 33
 

Postby juandelacruz » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:03 am

lwf58 wrote:As an archiver myself, and someone who's been involved with anime fan fiction for a long time, my take is this:

It's never okay to post another person's stories on the internet without permission. Not even if they cannot be contacted. The fact that some of them might not mind makes no difference; you have no way of knowing which would care and which would not.

There is the fact that their stories are somewhat protected by copyright law to consider, depending on country of origin. The mere fact that they made it public in print automatically gives them legal rights regarding their work, which are only superseded by the rights of the creator of the work they set their story in. Just as you cannot legally display entire chapters or stories written by pro authors, displaying an amateur's work without permission is also unlawful.

So don't. There will be plenty of people who will give you permission or approach you to display their fiction. You don't have to violate the rights of others to have a good web site with lots of stories to show, and doing so will just make you look bad and potentially anger the authors. Heaven knows I get steamed when I see the few stories I've written show up elsewhere without my knowledge.


Okay, I'm dropping the idea of posting fanfics without permission. I never was comfortable with it anyway, and it just isn't worth the hassle of authors getting angry at me.
juandelacruz
Senshi Candidate
Posts: 33
 

Postby lwf58 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:07 am

juandelacruz wrote:I suppose I could have the site do just that, be more of a cataloguer/indexer/organizer of fanfics so readers will be able to find specific fanfics easily, and then simply supply links to the fanfics. The disadvantage is it would be more prone to link rot, which is one of the things I am trying to prevent.

Also, will authors be amenable to this linking to their stories?


That's much more acceptable. I've only seen a handful of times that someone has objected to people linking to their web pages. Most love it, because it's free advertising.

The only time it hurts is if they have limited bandwidth for the site, and the links generate so much traffic that they constantly end up over their bandwidth caps. Still, on the whole, you won't get much if any flak for creating a link archive without asking everyone whose sites are involved.
lwf58
User avatar
Site Master
Posts: 2201
 

Postby PCHeintz72 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:34 am

juandelacruz wrote:I suppose I could have the site do just that, be more of a cataloguer/indexer/organizer of fanfics so readers will be able to find specific fanfics easily, and then simply supply links to the fanfics. The disadvantage is it would be more prone to link rot, which is one of the things I am trying to prevent.

Also, will authors be amenable to this linking to their stories?

While I've been tempted, and even asked, to post my own listings to a site, I've not done so. While I can generate a list very easily by double clicking a program and wait... That does not guarantee the links I have not suffered that very same fate... So every 6-8 weeks I have to go through them to check them and either note discrepancies, or redirect the link to a valid story. A bit of a annoyance with some 4685 favorites/bookmarks.

lwf58 wrote:That's much more acceptable. I've only seen a handful of times that someone has objected to people linking to their web pages. Most love it, because it's free advertising.

The only time it hurts is if they have limited bandwidth for the site, and the links generate so much traffic that they constantly end up over their bandwidth caps. Still, on the whole, you won't get much if any flak for creating a link archive without asking everyone whose sites are involved.

Actually... I've never gotten a complaint on linking to the story by the author of that story per se... I've gotten complaints on formatting, and on how I determine the status of something (complete, not complete, single file, one shot, etc...). I used to list one shots as a status complete, got complaints... so changed it. Used to list one-shots as one shots, got complaints, so changed it... Used to list complete stories as finished, changed to complete to reflect FanFiction.NET and MediaMiner.ORG conventions. One I've not changed is listing a story as not complete when an author lists it as complete, but will write a epilogue (if writing a epilogue, and it is not done yet, the story is *not* complete in my eyes). Several other things have come up over the last few years like that.

I take the approach... If one can link to it on the web in any way... it is free game.

However... I also have a filter to not list certain categories of stories... I may read them, that does not mean I want to give out links for them. He may need to do something similar depending on the rules of any hosting site so he does not violate Terms of Service.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Postby Ran » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:07 pm

lwf58 wrote:It depends. If you are borrowing settings or story situations as a base for a new story, it's one thing. Example: I wrote a small series of short stories revolving around why Kasumi borrowed books from Doctor Tofu. Another fan author wrote a story based on the same idea. That was fine, and I thought his story was better than mine. I even included his story with mine when I posted them on the internet, with his permission. But if I created original characters and they suddenly started appearing in someone else's stories without permission, that would be another thing entirely.

There's a big difference when it comes to pro author versus fan author. Fan fiction based on a professional's work is somewhat legitimate, because the pro profits from his or her storytelling. Fans have some rights as to what they can do with the pro's work because it's a commodity; that's called "fair use", and is a return on the fact that somewhere along the line, they are paying him or her for the story. Fan authors make no profit on their original work or characters, so there is no "fair use" for those.


Whilst I agree that plaigarism and attempts to steal credit for others work is wrong I am not aware that "Fair Use" actually cares whether the copyright holder has commercially sold their work.

Just because someone has made money selling something does not entitle others to make derivative works for entertainment.

Similarly, just because someone has not sold a work but have instead put it up online for free does not give any special protection from others making derivative works for entertainment.

That said, the point is ultimately moot for me as I do not beleive my country actually has a specific fair use clause.

In any case, this is tangential to the main conversation.
Ran
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 83
 

Postby TerraEpon » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:49 pm

I believe the 'fair use' clause only refers specifically to parody, which most fanfiction isn't.

I've seen some really scathing anti-fanfic sites out there, but thankfully Wikipedia's article is pretty nuetral, though in the long run mainly unhelpful on the actuality of it all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issu ... an_fiction
TerraEpon
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 622
 

Postby pspinler » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:23 pm

Ran wrote:Whilst I agree that plaigarism and attempts to steal credit for others work is wrong I am not aware that "Fair Use" actually cares whether the copyright holder has commercially sold their work.

Just because someone has made money selling something does not entitle others to make derivative works for entertainment.


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer - do not interpret this as legal advice.

Legally, I have to agree here. Your legal position creating fan fiction is the same regardless of whether the original work is commercial or another fanfic. Copyright in the US does not recognize any such distinction.

I believe (with less confidence) that it makes a difference if you publish your work for money, at least as far as the remedies that may be applied, if any.

Ethically is another matter, of course. As far as I can tell, the accepted norms of fanfic creation are as lwf outlined. Assume published works are fair game unless the author or publisher makes a stink otherwise, but show courtesy and ask a fellow fanfic author before borrowing her concepts.

No - ethics and legality do not always align 100%.

All this said, the legal status of publishing any work without permission, such as posting someone else's work on the web, is pretty clear - don't do it. Authors automatically own a copyright of their work in the US, and unless they explicitly give permission, assume you can't, at least until any copyright would have normally expired.

Linking to another work in the US is still receiving occasional court challenges but it still appears to be pretty well accepted, legally and ethically. Linking should be fine.

For future consideration, there's a movement in software to freely publish so called 'abandonware', works for which the copyright holder apparently no longer exists, but where the copyright would still be otherwise valid. This would seem to be analogous to the situation of an author disappearing. However, the abandonware folks seem to have mostly gotten away with it so far because no-one has called them onto the carpet. Personally I think they'll be slapped down when and if anyone ever takes them to court, but I could be wrong.

On the off chance that they ever get sued and win, legalizing publishing abandonware, I think that'd change your situation too. Until then, though, stay the course.
pspinler
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 157
 

Postby Battlekrome » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:16 am

Having being burned by this at one time...

Basically state this on the page

have an email address (and use a spam hider function or such ie not in plaintext)

"I have made every effort to contact the authors whose work appears here. If you wish to have your work removed please email me at" ....

with each author's story include their website and email as well

granted all the stuff on my page i asked permisson first...

but for certain authors who have been forced off the net due to spam... (my main hotmail email is in reject everything atm... mostly due to volume of spam)

legally / ethically...

legally fanfiction is a grey area it's never been tested in court...

ethically make an effort to ask...
email them... document said email
and if they don't respond decide whether or not to add it based on availability.
however if they have it on the net on a webpage link to that is a must

really though i'm amazed angelfire/lycos is still serving free pages...
Through the sands of time I walk. Beyond time and space i call to those who awaken to the darkness and realize they are the light.
Battlekrome
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 202
 

Postby Togashi Gaijin » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:40 am

Battlekrome wrote:Having being burned by this at one time...
Basically state this on the page
have an email address (and use a spam hider function or such ie not in plaintext)
"I have made every effort to contact the authors whose work appears here. If you wish to have your work removed please email me at" ....

Sorry, but you are making a fundimental mistake in assuming that, because fanfic plays fast around the edges of the Copyright laws in the US, that it is somehow "special" and operates under different rules.

ALL fanfics are protected by copyright laws in the US. Period.

The only "question" for fanfics is who owns the copyright to which particular parts of the work. That is based on whether parts or all of the work fall under the categories of "derivative" or "transformative" - and those categories are based upon the amount of "original work" in the story in question.

Publically archiving someone else's story without permission, fanfic or otherwise, whether you can contact them or not, is about as clear-cut a case of copyright violation under US law as you can get. Posting someone else's fanfic without explicit pemission is legally no different than scanning a paperback novel and posting it online.
======================
Togashi Gaijin, Twisted Wordsmith
> http://gaijinsrealm.com
======================
Togashi Gaijin
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 97
 

Postby Battlekrome » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:36 am

ALL fanfics are protected by copyright laws in the US


Extremely untrue...

As much as the US would like their copyright laws do not apply to the rest of the world... (especially as the stupid mouse keeps on trying to remain copyrighted)

while being a mostly garbage piece of legislation the DMCA does have some good points... (the its ok to put anything on the web as long as you do takedown requests, works well for youtube which is more along the lines of your 'example')


Posting someone else's fanfic without explicit pemission is legally no different than scanning a paperback novel and posting it online.


Also inaccurate at best and misleading at worst

A paperback novel that is how old?
A paperback novel that is by which publisher?
A paperback novel that is no longer available in print or even second hand?

http://www.baen.com/library/
go read up on Eric Flint's post
(there's these things called Library that allow people to read stuff for free... seems alot like the internet eh?)

I think it all boils down to this point
"permission"

if you can contact author and get permission its ok (opt-in)
if unable to contact author you add it anyway and give option for them to remove it (opt-out)
Through the sands of time I walk. Beyond time and space i call to those who awaken to the darkness and realize they are the light.
Battlekrome
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 202
 

PreviousNext

Return to Fiction Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users