Does anyone else hate it when....

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Postby Vilkath » Sun May 11, 2008 11:48 pm

It is anoying, and a lot of the time the fic is little more then a romantic pairing with the same old plot. what is even worse then changed characters/events with the same old plot, is drasticaly different characters forced into the same plot.

Take Naruto for example, many stories have him smarter, faster stronger etc, suposivly kage level for one reason or another. Some times the boy is on another team, or no team at all and yet he seeks out Team 7, runs into snake face and gets the seal any ways.

One the worst sections for this has to be Harry potter though. It's amazing how many drasticaly different starts can end up with the same basic events for year 1-7 at hogwarts. Especialy year one fics where Harry might not be in Hogwarts at all and some how Ron and Hermonie are still good friends without Harry to bind them together.

And if you thought reading the same old was boring, you have those stories that just 'skip' every thing they deem unimportant or the same. I have read countless Naruto chunin exam fics that simply skip entire fights because in the authors own words it's the same as cannon. No matter how different the characters were a moment ago, some how every thing is the same.
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Postby dogbertcarroll » Sun May 11, 2008 11:54 pm

Yeah, that's a big screw up right there. Hermione would never have been Ron's friend without Harry there to play the buffer between the two.

Without Harry there, Dumbles wouldn't have setup the easy to overcome obstacle course that required Quirrel to let loose a troll in the school so he could investigate it, so at least Hermione wouldn't have died.

Ginny may still have gotten the diary, but without Harry to provide the angst in her life, she probably wouldn't have messed with it. They did mention that the reason she was writing in it was because she was obsessing over Harry and without him there, no chamber of secrets.
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Postby Uldihaa » Mon May 12, 2008 12:33 am

dogbertcarroll wrote:My greatest pet peeve is when they follow the canon plotline like nothing has changed. If you change anything, then everything should change with minor events snowballing into huge whopping changes!

The only events that shouldn't change are the ones from outside the area, for instance, Herb will still show up searching for the kettle, as little that is done in Nerima will effect him enough to alter that.

I hate when Ranma doesn't get cursed and yet somehow the author justifies him still being engaged to Akane straight off the bat for no apparent reason.

Nabiki was searching for a cute boy at the time and was in favor of the idea, but somehow that gets skipped completely and if they do engage Nabiki to Ranma then they somehow get Kuno after him anyhow, for some asinine reason, so they can stick to the same old 'Kuno attacks Ranma to free his loves' plot.


You hit the nail on the head with this. The way I see it, if the author's changes can affect what happened in canon, it should affect it.

One of the best AU fics I've ever read is S'Tarkan's Team Eight. Naruto with a different sensei and different team resulted in a different Naruto, which in turn lead to different things occurring in the story. While there is a Chuunin Exam arc, it's radically different from canon. While some things do occur that are the same as canon, the out-comes are either different or due to the fact that, no matter how changed Naruto was, he just didn't have the power/skill to truly alter anyway.

And you're right about Nabiki; she did seem to at be willing to give the whole 'fiance' thing a shot (seemed to be down-right eager actually), at least until she realized that the boy was actually a girl (from her point of view at the time); when she learned about the curse, she passed the engagement on like a hot potato.

A writer really needs to sit down and write out the events from canon, identify what would be affected by his/her changes and what not, and adjust the story accordingly.
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Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Mon May 12, 2008 6:39 am

Meh. I see no reason to rehash things that've happened in Takahashi's version(s). I'd rather write from fanon anyway; it is more versatile. And it gives me a chance to play to my strengths rather than Takahashi-sama's.
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Postby Siden » Wed May 14, 2008 12:35 am

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:Meh. I see no reason to rehash things that've happened in Takahashi's version(s). I'd rather write from fanon anyway; it is more versatile. And it gives me a chance to play to my strengths rather than Takahashi-sama's.


I think Uldihaa is speaking more on authors needing to look at "How will my changes, and the variables and alterations created as a result (butterfly-effect), effect how the characters react in situation X, as opposed to how they would react when unaltered?" In other words, if you change the characters you have to change how they react and how others react to them, even if only a minor variance. Canon is like a calm pond, your change is a pebble that has been thrown in. How big a change effects how large the splash and ripples are, and how far they reach.

To return to Uldihaa's example from S'Tarkan's Team 8:
One seemingly simple change will result, and indeed has, in a near-complete rewrite of the canon events. Some events will still happen regardless of the changes, like the Chunin Exams, and some may not happen at all, such as Naruto going on the mission to Wave Country. But the particulars of these events, unavoidable or otherwise, irregardless of how large or small the change, will be effected by the initial alteration and the resulting ripples. Fights will go differently, or not happen at all. Characters will treat the changed person(s) differently, and may even begin to exhibit changes themselves if the altered events interact with them.

To use another example:
Then Tendo meeting is seemingly essential to any story featuring heavy interaction with the Tendo's. The way Genma and Soun can get at times, it is bound to happen eventually if Ranma makes more than sparse contact with any of the daughters. This is where the changes can come in. If Ranma does not become cursed, or has a curse that does not effect his gender or species, then an author has no reason for placing him with Akane. Anyone with eyes can look at Volume 1 and see that of the three Tendo sisters, Nabiki is enthusiastic, Kasumi is aprhensive, and Akane is disgruntled. Ranma normal: Nabiki engaged. Cursed to look 10 years older, saiyan, demi-god, etc.: Nabiki and Kasumi interested, which chosen up to author. Cursed as non-human: probably back to Akane. If the other two bail just cause he turns into a girl, imagine how fast they'll pull that move if he turns into a dog or something?

As for rehashing events previously laid down by the author, there are only really three ways to avoid that: Plot divergencies, post-canon stories, and alternate universes. Since many people like to change the curses, rehashing at least Jusenkyo is unavoidable. However, that does not mean they have to write the entire scene. A short thought-bubble sentence or two can easily take care of the nescessary information required to tell readers what has changed.
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Postby KonokoHasano » Wed May 14, 2008 1:00 am

I think Uldihaa is speaking more on authors needing to look at "How will my changes, and the variables and alterations created as a result (butterfly-effect), effect how the characters react in situation X, as opposed to how they would react when unaltered?" In other words, if you change the characters you have to change how they react and how others react to them, even if only a minor variance. Canon is like a calm pond, your change is a pebble that has been thrown in. How big a change effects how large the splash and ripples are, and how far they reach.

It's something I'm trying to take into account with Ranma being around in the Harry Potter timeline in Wild Magic. With Ranma there, deviation at certain points is completely inevitable, and I'm trying to figure out how I'll do events during second year. Hell, year six and seven would end up as an even greater deviation... and I have to figure it out. XD

Deviating from canon and creating a completely different turn of events and story can be incredibly hard, but it'll always be rewarding in the long run once you use your imagination and put it to use.

It's particularly why reading Naruto fanfics tend to get annoying. It's almost ALWAYS the friggin Wave Arc and near rehash of the Chunin Exams.

Think up something different than Wave, damn it! Use your friggin imagination to do something. :x
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Postby Vilkath » Wed May 14, 2008 1:37 am

True in stuff like Wild Magic the author not only has to deal with how this new Ranma affects the main character like Harry but Ranma has drasticaly changed hermonie as well with his close friendship with her and in turn Hermonie should effect some key events since she is supposed to be Harry's good bookish but lonely friend which is not entirely true any more.

I believe a lot of the pain she put up with from Ron in the early years was only due to because she HAD no other friends but him and Harry, even something simple as giving her a wider circle of friends can change things drasticaly in the later years. Would simple things like the DA happen without Hermonie researching the magical contract or special charms?

Some times authors ignore the little things like secondary characters, like Team 7 in Naruto. How would things be different if Sakura wasn't on the team? Would Sasuke have a better persoanlty without her constant anoyance? Yet it's amazing how many replace her with Ino, or Naruto with Kibia etc and don't really change any the team dynamic.
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Postby Gaming Ikari » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:25 am

I find it to be incredibly lazy storytelling any time this happens in any fandom, because it ignores cause and effect in favour of simply rehashing a scene and adding "but he's blind!" to it. Once the divergence starts, things should rapidly begin to spiral away from the source material. Small changes in the present lead to bigger and bigger changes in the future, which means that some events would have radically different outcomes or not occur at all.

I think the worst example I've seen was a story which had Ranma engaged to Nabiki (and demonstrating some decent growth there) yet getting angry with Mikado when the author was puking up the Golden Pair storyline. I remember thinking about just how lazy it was that the author had Ranma get angry on Akane's behalf almost like he did in the manga, despite the rather tenuous relationship of "she's my fiancee's sister". It was jarring.

The biggest offender, of course, is Ranma Saotome winding up back at the Tendo Dojo at the beginning of any alternate story. It seems no matter what other changes happen or what sort of radically different life the poor boy's led up until that point, he'll show up on the Tendo's doorstep right in time to go to Furinkan and offend Kuno.
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Postby Vilkath » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:00 am

I think that is a major point in a lot of fanfiction. Series where one or two locations are nearly the focus of the entire story badly root any AU to their location, no matter how illogical it is.

Harry Potter fics, no matter how much smarter he is, no matter how badly his opinion of Dumbledore and British wizarding world is.. he almost always has to go to hogwarts some how. If for no other reason then the insane amount effort it would take an author to make up something new.

Ranma fics naturaly focus around the Tendo Dojo almost exclusively, no matter if Genma's dead he was raised by Nodoka, space aliens or what.

Naruto fanfiction has a big problem as well, one the worst in the AU start genre imo where Naruto taken at a young age be raised by some one else after nearly being beaten to death or something in Konoha.. but then agree's to come back around age 12 to join the genin exams. Comming back to a village that hates him.. to serve as it's loyal ninja despite the fact it had no benifical part of his training?

The one or two setting series definetly have one the biggest issues in this 'big changes but little to no effect on canon events' problem.
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Postby Gaming Ikari » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:08 am

The thing is, to a point, Konoha and Hogwarts are large enough spaces that a decent author can work with the setting to create something new. Konoha is a small city, and at Hogwarts both Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff go largely ignored when compared to the development of Slytherin and Gryffindor.

My problem with the Tendo dojo is that it's FOUR freaking people. Without Genma dragging Ranma there for the marriage agreement, Ranma has little reason to visit and no reason at all to stay. Having him settle in Nerima itself is fine... The ward is large enough to call it a reasonably swallowed coincidence for the sake of introducing other canon characters.

Actively showing up is not, especially in fics where Ranma arrives without Genma. Without the panda there to enforce the engagement, Ranma would have been gone within a day even had he showed up in the first place.
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Postby Spokavriel » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:21 am

Mike Koos has one really painful (to me) fic along these lines. Nodoka makes a wish and it creates an alternate reality where Ranma is born a girl. Even with that Genma still demands the training trip and somehow from the trip Ranma has been made into Akane and without any training trip the Tendo "Boys" are filling in Ranma shoes on almost every situation in Canon Ranma.

And only a few people in the world had the genders flipped. Though why anyone other than Ranma had it happen to them ... It's just a fic that I find easy to rant about and I've complained to the author more than too much over. You change a birth the whole thing should be AU but for some reason he tried to avoid letting it become that.
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Postby TerraEpon » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:14 am

Gaming Ikari wrote:The biggest offender, of course, is Ranma Saotome winding up back at the Tendo Dojo at the beginning of any alternate story. It seems no matter what other changes happen or what sort of radically different life the poor boy's led up until that point, he'll show up on the Tendo's doorstep right in time to go to Furinkan and offend Kuno.


I think part of that is the author wants to keep it a "Ranma story" and thus getting too far away will make it not one. After all, if all you have is a guy in a pigtail who's trained in martial arts for 10 years (and no other...oddities...), then no matter what you call him or have him do, it's really skirting the line of if it's truly much of a fanfic.
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Postby Vilkath » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:41 pm

Still I think if an author is forced to use such strong arm tactics to force a story back onto canon just to keep it a 'Ranma Story' they should think about either making less changes, or do them later in the story. Setting up really AU starts before Ranma's arrival at the Tendo Dojo sets a path of change. If they still him to arive there, still be engaged to Akane and all that it will require either some impressive creativity to make it happen, or accepting the fact maybe the AU chance should happen later.

The different curse fics are perhaps the easiest to change, instead of just having Ranma fall into a different spring make one the 'cures' he attempts change him and his curse if the author really wants to maintain early canon.

I think overallan author should avoid writing an AU fic before they are willing to make chnages, far to often you see the author start early then 'gloss over tons of canon events for no logical reason' just to get to the real divergent point that they wanted.

The he just had a 'mask' type fics abuse this the most. Ranma, Naruto who ever starting up a fic late in canon but trying say this Ranma is dramaticaly AU, and has always been smart, aware etc but just pretending to be stupid is one the worst ways to go most the time.
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Postby three headed dog » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:15 pm

Vilkath wrote:The he just had a 'mask' type fics abuse this the most. Ranma, Naruto who ever starting up a fic late in canon but trying say this Ranma is dramaticaly AU, and has always been smart, aware etc but just pretending to be stupid is one the worst ways to go most the time.


I particularly dislike them because Ranma is not stupid or unaware in the manga and does not pretend to be so. He is rash, impatient, and a live in the moment type person (all fairly common traits amongst teens) but he is aware of the situations he is in, he has made some pretty damn complex plans - for example the one to get Taro's name changed (wrote a play, convinced students to act in play, drugged happosai, used another drug/magic to get Happosai more open to suggestion, etc...), manipulated people, attempted to blackmail people, is most commonly the first person to figure things out and come up with a plan, he recognizes when people are trying to manipulate him, he has displayed a large number of skills, people have commented on his learning ability (Cologne, Akane, Genma) etc...
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Postby Makoto » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:15 pm

Spokavriel wrote:Mike Koos has one really painful (to me) fic along these lines. Nodoka makes a wish and it creates an alternate reality where Ranma is born a girl. Even with that Genma still demands the training trip and somehow from the trip Ranma has been made into Akane and without any training trip the Tendo "Boys" are filling in Ranma shoes on almost every situation in Canon Ranma.

And only a few people in the world had the genders flipped. Though why anyone other than Ranma had it happen to them ... It's just a fic that I find easy to rant about and I've complained to the author more than too much over. You change a birth the whole thing should be AU but for some reason he tried to avoid letting it become that.


(sighs) You really wanted to get me to sign back on, didn't you? :P

Just to clarify a little, for the others reading this - Destiny's Wish was meant as a character exploration, really, not an AU where EVERYONE is gender-swapped. I wanted to explore how things in the canon series might have been different had Ranma been a girl, such as whether or not she'd be able to get away with not wearing the Fuurinkan uniform as much, or that she'd be expected to be (a bit more) subservient to her father and fiancee.

I don't believe that just because it's AU, the changes should snowball and all happen right away. Did I handle it right? I doubt it. In fact, there are a number of things about it that I don't like. And yes, some of the real big changes don't happen until around the point where I 'ended'.

But no, Ranma was NOT simply turned into Akane. Yes, I gave her a mallet - intentionally, to poke fun at the fanon. She annoys people with it, and it's stated she doesn't even really need it.
But, I digress. I'm probably about to get malleted by everyone else in this thread. :D
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