Of forest fires and firefighting...

[Crescent Pulsar S]

I was wondering about something. Trees didn't appear to be scarce or non-existent before fire fighting reached a point where forest fires could conceivably be handled, so why bother putting them out? Aside from reasons concerned with the loss of people's possessions, I mean. Are we such a blight on the environment that we need to take action to compensate for the increase of fire incidents in order to prevent forests from (literally) going up in smoke?

[Spokavriel]

Quite allot of history tied up in things needed to respond on this one. Including the history of our Federal Government meddling with nature and world governments making Agenda 21.

But for an idea of what the country use to be like before too much meddling and firefighting availability you might want to look up the writings of Lewis and Clark. Not the more recent books but copies of their own journals are available at places online and in libraries. A large portion of what they found in this continent was full of ancient forests. Some of which was even being farmed and managed by the indian tribes/nations they encountered. And while Buffalo could get almost everywhere on the continent outside of the Tropics and south of parts of Canada it was no where near as bare of woods as it has since become.

The fact that there has been so much loss of forest kinda panicked the US Government so for a while they instituted a No Burn policy for all woodlands in all national parks and that lead to some of the largest forest fires in history. That lead to a new policy of letting naturally occurring fires burn. Lightning strike sparked. Quite allot of big messes caused by meddling and now Agenda 21 has world governments declaring and enforcing that lands must be designated as Wilderness and then protected from human exploitation to the point where they won't even allow you to hike or camp there much less take away some deadfall trees for lumber or firewood. To say nothing of logging.

This is more abbreviated than cliffs notes but basically sure there are still trees. No where near as many as there use to be but its far from surprising and the government is making it seem more scarce than it is to score points with other world nations.

BTW interesting timing considering there is a Forest fire just outside of town here in Reno while I am typing this.

[Spica75]

Simplest answer? Forest fires can be extremely DANGEROUS.

Under the "right" conditions, you can have a lethal firestorm that moves faster than anyone can run. Which is why many animals instinct is to try to run through the fire rather than away from it.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Oh, I should have said that someone's life is a possession.

So, firefighters are animals inside?

BTW interesting timing considering there is a Forest fire just outside of town here in Reno while I am typing this.

Well, it was probably because that fire was mentioned that my thoughts went in the direction that they did. It just seemed odd that forests seemed to be doing fine before firefighting came into the picture.

[Spokavriel]

You do know that the art of documentation is almost as old as the original forms of fire negation right?

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Fire prevention is different, and the scale by which firefighting could be done in the past was much more limited. If the fire wasn't small and/or fairly contained to begin with, little -- if anything -- could be done about it directly. Saving buildings around the one that was consumed by flames was a lot more feasible than trying to save the building that was on fire. I can't even conceive how the people of yore would be capable of putting out a forest fire, except under very ideal circumstances.

Unless what you said was just a "The More You Know" moment, you can ignore the argument.

[Spokavriel]

It was more of a More You Know thing. But for the way it use to be done. Bucket Brigades, Woodsmen with axes and people with shovels doing some digging to make what is called a Fire Break to help hopefully stop the fire from spreading in an unwanted direction. Early firefighting at least the effective parts.

[Spica75]

Yup, fire breaks works quite well as long as the wind isn´t too strong. And it´s generally a matter of just having enough people with axe and shovel.

There´s also setting counterfires. If the wind changes unexpectedly, it can be even more dangerous than the original forest fire, but it can be highly effective when used correctly.

[Knight of L-sama]

Yup, fire breaks works quite well as long as the wind isn´t too strong. And it´s generally a matter of just having enough people with axe and shovel.

It depends on exactly what type of forest your in. Mallee scrub and other types of forests with high concentrations of eucalyptus trees... not so much unless you've got a lot of people to make one damn huge fire break. Problem with those ones is that the oils in the leave tend to volatalise and hang in the air in hot weather when fires are most likely to occur and in the case of fires can actually ignite from radiant heat alone.

[Spokavriel]

The same problems happen with most pine groves. Embers from these fires can fly over a mile and still have enough of a spark on contact to light up anything dry it finds.

Never said the old ways were the most effective. There is no perfect way to manage an out of control fire.

[Spica75]

It depends on exactly what type of forest your in. Mallee scrub and other types of forests with high concentrations of eucalyptus trees... not so much unless you've got a lot of people to make one damn huge fire break. Problem with those ones is that the oils in the leave tend to volatalise and hang in the air in hot weather when fires are most likely to occur and in the case of fires can actually ignite from radiant heat alone.

Of course, and you pretty much always need lots of people for it(or plenty of time), not much eucalyptus here though.

The same problems happen with most pine groves. Embers from these fires can fly over a mile and still have enough of a spark on contact to light up anything dry it finds.

Yup, pretty much falls under what i meant with too strong winds. With really weak winds even a 10m firebreak can be enough if you have time to douse the area behind it with water, but strong winds, you need a firebreak 100m or more AND a lot of people behind the break taking care of flying embers.

They also tend to burn as much before the firebreak as they have time for to make it much more effective, as that reduces the problem with roots and other subsurface firechannels, which is often hard to get rid of unless you´re lucky enough that the place can be accessed with heavy machinery.

There is no perfect way to manage an out of control fire.

Indeed. Not a job for the lazy or faint of heart.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Plants and fires evolved together over billions of years. They may not 'like' one another, but they can both survive. (We don't need an idiot with a match - lightning can do the job perfectly well.)

Matters are more complicated when humans enter the equation. We've only been working with fire for a hundred thousand years or so. Now that we're building houses and towns and cities, it's a lot harder to run when we see a fire coming - there are places and possessions to weigh us down. So we try to stop large-scale fires from happening.

That only lets the tinder accumulate.

Ignoring the problem didn't work. No-burn policies simply let the potential for a big fire build up. Worse, some ecosystems need fire to maintain themselves. While fire may be needed for the system, it can be hell on the individuals living in it.

So policy has gone over to "controlled burn". But it doesn't always stay controlled. Humans are powerful. Fire can be more powerful.

Just another reminder: we are one of the larger players on the planet. But we're not in charge.

[Knight of L-sama]

Plants and fires evolved together over billions of years. They may not 'like' one another, but they can both survive. (We don't need an idiot with a match - lightning can do the job perfectly well.).

It gets even more complicated than that. Several species of Australian native plants (including some Eucalypts and the Xanthorea grass trees) cannot only survive fires, but actually require fires to open their seed pods and complete their reproductive cycle.

[Spokavriel]

Also true of plants on every continent. And some of those plants stimulate microorganisms that promote healthier growth of plants local wildlife requires in their diets.