Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

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Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby ijp92 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:45 pm

Just came across this article. I thought it might be a nice jumping off point for a conversation.

http://io9.com/10-reasons-why-everyone-but-sailor-moon-knows-tuxedo-ma-1659484664
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby Spica75 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:01 pm

Hmmm.... Well i´ll give it a critique at least.


1) He dates girls who are way too young for him.

By which we mean he's a borderline statutory rapist. It's less creepy later on when Mamoru is 19 and Usagi is 16 — although that's still a bit uncomfortably close to age of being unable to consent — but at the start of the series, Mamoru is a 17-year-old college student (according to the manga) and Usagi is a 14-year-old middle school student. That's just wrong.


Rubbish. 3 year difference? That´s nothing. And anyone who seriously thinks age of consent is something that actually concerns those around that age really needs a major reality check.

2) He was actually a huge asshole to Sailor Moon for a long time.


That kind of behaviour is sadly all too realistic. And depressingly often accepted in the real world as if there was nothing wrong with it.

And of course, a lot of that sort happens less from malice than from foot in mouth issues. I think there are few people who can really say that they haven´t accidentally said something nasty more than a few times.

3) He's lousy in a fight.


The argument is very overstated, but there´s some truth in it. OTOH, i did like the BESM SM RPG version of why, because his roses are seriously powerful in disrupting opponents, AND even fits perfectly with the story.

4) He's even terrible at providing moral support.


Eh... Ok, so the argument is that he´s wrong no matter what he does or, something?

The basic statement is somewhat true, but he´s no worse than several hundred million other people so what?

5) He dresses like the '90s threw up on him.


Meh, who cares. Whatever floats his boat.

6) He's basically an enormous liability to the entire Sailor Scout operation.


:|

8) He sabotages his relationship with Usagi from the future just to be a jerk.

At one point in Sailor Moon R, Mamoru has a recurring dream where Usagi dies because of their relationship, and he resolves to break up with her. It's forced drama, but Mamoru frequently has prophetic dreams, so it's a little reasonable. Less reasonable is Mamoru's handling of the breakup, which he manages to make as awful as possible for all concerned.


And one more example of him being the average emotionally stunted immature boy dressing up as a man?

And here's the most insane part: Mamoru sent the dreams to himself. Or rather, his future self, King Endymion, sent the dreams back in time to Mamoru, in order to test his love for Usagi. For no good goddamned reason other than the fact that even in the future, Tuxedo Mask is an enormous dickhole.


Now THAT i can agree with.

9) His super disturbing relationship with his daughter.


So?

Can you spell "weird situations"?

Real world situations have happened that were easily in the same league. Like twins or half-siblings getting married because they didn´t know that they were related. Heck, there has even been "accidental" marriages between parents and children the same way. And that´s just those that is known because they eventually DID find out AND did something about it.

10) HE'S NOT EVEN WEARING A GODDAMNED TUXEDO.


And to anyone who isn´t a hardcore know-it-all for formal clothes, the difference is a big "meh".
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Eh. It was heavily biased toward the anime, basically equated both the anime and manga as being the same by focusing on the bad things from one and dismissing the same subject in the other, was ignorant about a few things, thought Mamoru was at college when he was seventeen (which was wrong, and is used to add on to the disparity in age with something irrelevant), and a number of the things that they brought up as arguments for their case were simply stupid. If I didn't know any better, they're not being serious and trolling people. I guess I'll respond to each of their reasons separately anyway, 'cause I'm bored...

1: This tells me that they don't know much about Japanese culture, law, or what their relationship even was. If they were actually having sex, there would be an issue, but dating isn't against the law. Considering that it's not all that strange for arranged marriages to be between individuals who greatly differ in age (there's an example in Card Captor Sakura, I believe, between an elementary student and a teacher, which is an even bigger difference), the only real problem would be if either of their parents (well, only Usagi's in this case) didn't consent to them getting married, and that only lasts until they're recognized as adults according to the law.

2: They're surprised that a teenager is acting immaturely to another teenager? Good grief. Also, it doesn't mention that they didn't fight much in the manga, not just because of a lack of encounters but because they were already experiencing a connection to each other before they remembered their past lives.

3: This completely disregards the fact that the sailor senshi are probably more incompetent than he is. When he makes an appearance, it's often because the sailor senshi weren't doing well themselves, or even seemingly at an utter loss. Considering how many times he's actually successful at what he does when he does it the first time, wherein he helps them as opposed to them needing to help him, I'd say that he's more than competent enough by comparison. And, again, their focus is on the anime; which is made very evident because he has more than just his roses and cane to attack with, and other abilities besides.

4: This is just nitpicking and making a mountain out of a molehill. Who said someone has to be good at something, especially when they were neither taught or prepared for the role? I mean, come on.

5: There's only one word for this one: stupid. I mean, technically, he didn't get to choose his attire or live in the nineties, but the true limitation was with the animation, not Mamoru's fashion sense. Even twenty years later it's not uncommon for anime characters to be stuck in the same, exact outfit most of the time. Now, had they any inclination to even consider the manga, they would have realized that the problem was from the medium, not Mamoru.

And the racism thing was facepalm worthy. By that point I began to suspect trolling.

6: My answer is pretty much the same as the one for the third reason they give. The sailor senshi die, get kidnapped and brainwashed as well. He's no more of a liability than the sailor senshi. It also disregards how much more often he sorts out what their own liabilities had gotten them into as opposed to the other way around.

7A: Just more of the same, which means I'll have to refer to three again, as well as six.

7B: Makes me wonder why they complain in 7A.

8: Once again, this is only about the anime. Also, once again again, they're applying the problem to the wrong source. Despite saying that the drama was forced, it's all Mamoru's fault, not some monumentally bad idea by whoever was responsible for that part of the series' plot. Normally that wouldn't be a good enough excuse, since then all of any character's faults could be placed at the hands of a real person (or people), but not when it's so bad that it defies reason.

9: And here he's being faulted for another's behavior because he doesn't put an immediate stop to it despite the circumstances. Makes lots of sense. Especially when one of the examples is when they were both not in their right minds, and -- while it doesn't really matter -- Chibi-Usa was hundreds of years older than him even before she gained an adult body for a time. And then they blame Mamoru for not ensuring that Chibi-Usa doesn't treat her father the way that she does when she's with his past self, which is the kind of thing that they had complained about with Mamoru sending visions to his past self.

10: As far as I can tell, they're wrong about this. They're referring to tradition and/or etiquette with white tie, and a tuxedo is not defined by that but its own make. If they want to prove that it's not a tuxedo he's wearing, they should focus on its appearance and pick at that. As far as I can tell, they're saying it's not a tuxedo based on how it's worn and what it's worn with, thus calling it a "white tie dinner suit" (which I've totally heard of before).
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby ijp92 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:29 pm

wow. I must be spending too much time on SB. Was expecting some sort of actual argument to start.

Well, while I was not entertained, I have to say good on you guys for being mature and reasonable people.
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:41 pm

Oh, so you were flame-baiting us? :twisted:
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby ijp92 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:45 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Oh, so you were flame-baiting us? :twisted:

yes and no.

Primarily, I wanted to share the article because I thought it was amusing at least. And this is one of the only forums I'm on that would care about the subject.

Again, I've been spending a lot of time on SB, so I'm really used to new ideas leading to discussion leading to arguments leading to pages of people redundantly quoting and refuting each other ad naseum till other posters beg them to stop and take it to pm.

I didn't expect and I certainly hoped it wouldn't turn into that. But I was expecting something a bit more lively than, "article is stupid." "I concur."
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:15 am

Oh, well, you missed that train some time ago. Used to be a fair amount of seemingly endless arguments in the past.

Maybe that's why this place has been as quiet as it has been for a while!?
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Re: Character Discussion: Tuxedo Mask

Postby Spica75 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:26 am

But I was expecting something a bit more lively than, "article is stupid." "I concur."


:mrgreen:

Well to be fair, the article mostly did consist of stupid assertions or things taken to the extreme or disregarding situations. I rather doubt anyone will argue that it´s "very accurate" or any such.

Again, I've been spending a lot of time on SB, so I'm really used to new ideas leading to discussion leading to arguments leading to pages of people redundantly quoting and refuting each other ad naseum till other posters beg them to stop and take it to pm.


Lot more fanboys of the sandbox kind there. And for that matter, lots more people in total which makes it more likely for disagreement simply by random chance.
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