misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Cheb » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Too tired now. Take these 2 folders, and some1 plz post relevant as img here.
Japanese manga pages
English manga pages

In particular interest is how DRR is written in kanji: image
Last edited by Cheb on Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Cheb » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:53 pm

Aha. 死世界変革 , or Death World Reform, shi - sekai - henkaku

The ribbons give birth to a mighty tornado, then more tornadoes form at other points around... And so on... I'd say this technique just has an appropriately long casting time, so bringing the glaive down is simply its finishing gesture.

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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Moridin wrote:second when did i use Star wars to make a comparison apart from the futility that fighting the death star is to stopping Saturn's ultimate attack. the comparison was more about how much more scary something that you cant hear or dose not have a name is. particually given the general fear the scouts have towards her and her attack and the whole Messiah of Silence thing.

Whoops; my mistake. But it's still irrelevant, and not the point. Attacks like that one, especially if it's a finishing move, almost always have its name mentioned somewhere, at some point, in some way. Sailor Moon is a series rife with the announcement-of-things convention, and not just for attacks. It would be very peculiar if Saturn's ultimate attack was the only exception, since -- along with everything else -- the other weapons and ultimate attacks are accompanied by the announcement of their name as well.

finally she announces the attack Death reborn Revolution that hurts him alot then says that i will destroy you and end the world speach where there is no sighn of the death reborn still being active. she brings down the glaive everyone but the senshi die and Pharoah 90 tries to bugger off back to Tau ceti. Pluto then dose something to seal away/kill him with the time gate and saturn tells moon she can bring back everyone using the grail.

Tell me something. Why bother with the foreplay if all she has to do is swing her silence glaive down with intent? Why waste time doing unnecessary things, when the very first strike had already rendered Pharaoh 90 immobile and feeling like he was losing his power? Why does she say that she must drop her silence glaive, and the next thing she does is the death reborn revolution?

And I don't know what you're looking at, but it's pretty clear that the death reborn revolution hadn't stopped when she said what she did, just because that one panel has a clear background. The vortex of energy (or whatever) is still going, and continues until Pluto seals the door. Also, if you pay attention to the ribbons, after spreading out they turn inward and spiral around Saturn, going up her silence glaive until they're gone (probably having served their purpose). The death reborn revolution looks like an attack with multiple elements and phases, which shouldn't come as a surprise for such an attack.

also she starts to use the attack against Nehelenia or whatever the manga calls it, again without annoucing anything or saying "Death Reborn Revoltion" and chibi-usa stops her.

I don't recall that. I looked through the parts where Saturn and Chibi-Moon were together, and I still didn't see it. If you could, please describe when it takes place so I can find what you're referring to.

I also don't see what replying to you is worth anything as you are obviously not open to changing your mind on this, going so far as to ignore the sources i sited and scorning my comparison between the death star and saturn's final attack by ranting about the weapons/force abilitys in star wars not being announced. why argue with someone who seem to not be able to or refuses to try and see the other persons point.

To begin with: that thing with the Death Star had been a mistake on my part, and I'm pretty sure you made a mistake of your own, yet all I did was question you for yours and I get blasted for mine.

Also, I'd like to point out that I did change my mind, as opposed to what you claim, and I even said so in my last post, along with an apology. Yet, now that we are of differing opinions, I'm the only one at fault? Give me a break.

And I don't refuse to see your point; I simply don't see it, period. You obviously don't see mine either, but I'm not assuming that you refuse to see it. As far as I'm concerned, you haven't been able to defend your position, and my attacks remain unchallenged. Mostly because you shrug aside the points I make as if I hadn't made them and repeat your own, rather than proving me wrong. If anyone should be making the accusation you just made, it should be me making it to you.

But, since we don't see eye to eye, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure we have better things to do with our time.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:42 am

"start quoting relevent information from the first link i posted"
Myths: In the BSSM manga continuity, Sailor Saturn performs "Death Ribbon Revolution" to destroy the world. Then, with its power, the world is reborn.

Refutation: These are some of the oldest rumors out there. Fans have been making those claims for many years, but nobody has ever tried to provide any substantial evidence for them. It might have something to do with the fact that the evidence in the manga tells us something different. Even Sailor Saturn herself says—and does—something different. This is not a question about whether or not Death Reborn Revolution could have the power to bring the ruin. There's no way to know for sure. To say that it can or can't is arguing from ignorance. The fact is that, just by casually observing what happens in the story, one will see that Sailor Saturn simply does not use her Death Reborn Revolution to destroy the world.

Before continuing, the name of the maneuver should be explained. Some have argued that it should be "Death Ribbon Revolution" , but the manga specifically shows the characters that spell "Death Reborn Revolution" . (Other sources, such as the BSSM S fighting game for the Super Famicom, do use "Death Ribbon Revolution." Those who are interested in the different versions of the name should go here.) Those words, which are written in Japanese, can be found above five kanji: . When they're written together, these kanji represent the Japanese words shi sekai henkaku, and they mean "death world change" or "death world revolution." The phrase that's expressed in the kanji isn't a literal translation of the English phrase "death reborn revolution." The idea that Sailor Saturn performs this maneuver to destroy the world probably comes from the fact that the first three kanji really do mean "death world." However, the kanji combination that is associated with a maneuver name does not have to describe literally what the maneuver does. The kanji that are associated with "World Shaking" mean "sky world shaking," but the maneuver does not seem to make the sky world shake.

The only significant thing that the "Death Reborn Revolution" maneuver is shown to do is attack Pharaoh 90. The ribbon-like projectiles that appear when Sailor Saturn performs "Death Reborn Revolution" are not shown to affect Earth significantly. Sailor Moon, the other sailor soldiers, and Tuxedo Mask do not indicate that they are concerned about the ribbons from the "Death Reborn Revolution" maneuver affecting Earth.

The soldiers of the outer Solar System are concerned about Sailor Saturn bringing down the Silence Glaive.

When Sailor Saturn decides to bring about the ruin, she doesn't need to say a three-word incantation to do such a thing. Several of the characters confirm this. These passages have been taken from Alex Glover's BSSM manga translations:

"We watched as she slowly brought down her silence glaive, as the Silver Millennium went into oblivion." - Sailor Neptune, Act 30.

"Now that I've awakened, I must bring down this silence glaive." - Sailor Saturn, Act 33.

"If it's brought down, it will mean the lapse of everything. Sailor Saturn!" - Sailor Pluto, Act 33.

"She'll bring down the silence glaive," thinks Haruka. "Along with the monster, this world will end! Sailor Moon!!" - Sailor Uranus, Act 33. end quoting of relevant information

I am reading your points, though most of the time they just seem to be picking at the parts of my argument that seem irreverent. that being said, the naming of attacks as they are doing it thing, most bad guys seem not to name their attacks as they are being cast. they either do it cause they are not skilled enough, the author wants to give the reader and the senshi a warning or they want to brag and explain exactly what it dose etc. it could be the attack dose not even have a name, or that silence is it's name.


think i miss read a bit of information at the time. she tries it against nehelenia in the anime not the manga, or at least she dose something in the anime, shots on youtube show her saying death reborn revolution then the castle blowing up, but its a english dub so probably not accurate.
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I agree and apologize as to the having a go at you. There were some people on my fave MMO being total arse's that clouded my judgement at that time.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Cheb » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:04 am

do not indicate that they are concerned about the ribbons from the "Death Reborn Revolution" maneuver affecting Earth.

Just read the blasted manga! I posted a whole volume for ya, in both English and Japanese -- see the links above. Did you read it? :evil:

There are civilians dropping dead to this technique. :x Which gets an appropriate reaction from the Senshi. Read the manga, I dare you.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:06 am

i read the blasted manga! hell i downloaded the whole of the tokyopop translation. the death reborn and whatever she uses to kills everyone still appear to be different techniques. ha! found my proof. when i re-read on of cresant_pulsar's posts he/she/whatever said that they explain what happened the last time saturn was summoned. along with a shot of her using the final attack and killing everyone in system (bar earth probably). no mention of death reborn anywhere.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Cheb » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:14 am

Edit: so she does have two different techniques that end the world :(

The technique in progress: Note the tornadoes, the tsunamis and the general devastation. I admit, Naoko Takeuchi's narration style makes it hard to understand. It's all utterly emotional.

For the unaware: this below happens after she started casting Death World Revolution, but before she brought the glaive down. Look at the scale, the scale.

Image Image
(here "Everything, everyone is being erased" would be a better translation IMHO)

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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:37 am

not trying to start another argument, but are you sure that is in the right order. the shot with the lightning around the world and the senshi saying that everyone is dying/being erased is after she drops the glaive in the tokyopop eng translation i have. she uses the death reborn revolution (i think it sounds better than death world revolution) and all those ribbons blast Pharoah 90 and he says something about his power being drained. Saturn then says something along the lines of "i will now kill you and everyone on this world" and drops the glaive.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:43 am

Moridin wrote:when i re-read on of cresant_pulsar's posts he/she/whatever said that they explain what happened the last time saturn was summoned. along with a shot of her using the final attack and killing everyone in system (bar earth probably). no mention of death reborn anywhere.
I also mentioned why dialogue should not automatically be taken literally, as I see no reason for Uranus to give more than basic information under the circumstances, so the past example is not good evidence for us to use. The most reliable evidence is the occasion where the readers see the event play out for themselves, rather than anything anecdotal.

I am reading your points, though most of the time they just seem to be picking at the parts of my argument that seem irreverent.
And most of my points were perfectly relevant, with some being not so much. We were arguing over whether the death reborn revolution and dropping the silence glaive were a part of the same attack, or two distinct attacks; I never had any argument about whether it was a destroyer of worlds or not. I've had some time to think of a way to clarify what I've been saying, and I came up with two examples that should -- together -- cleanly sum up all of the relevant points I made.

The first pertains to why everyone would place their focus on the silence glaive being dropped: because that means it's too late. If there's any charge time beforehand, what they're going to be worried about is what happens when that finishes, seeing as it's not the main threat. It's the difference between seeing someone wielding a weapon, with the potential to use it on you, and seeing them actually trying to use it on you.

The second involves seeing the process on a smaller scale. Even when you take into consideration the simple action of swinging the silence glaive down, there's a process to it; the silence glaive isn't instantly in a brought down position, with nothing occurring in between or beforehand. To begin with, before one can bring something down, one must first place it into a position for there to be room for such an action. Then, there's actually moving it from point A to point B, the bringing before the brought. It's basically like a ticking time bomb, where the main concern is the count reaching zero, not so much that it's counting down.

Put together, imagine someone with a gun (for more emphasis on my point, we'll say that it needs its hammer drawn back manually), and you're put into a position where they're willing to use it on you. Okay, the gun's in its holster, so it's not as threatening as it being out of it. Now it's out of its holster, but that's not as threatening as it being loaded with bullets. When that happens, it's not as bad as the barrel of the gun being pointed at you. It's pointed at you now, but at least the hammer isn't cocked. It's cocked, there's only one more thing for them to do, and then it's the end of that process and the end of you, which you had feared from the very start.

Basically, the part of something that is most feared (which is often the last part) should not be mistaken as a separate entity. Often, it usually takes a number of less threatening/mundane things before the most threatening part can be realized, which means that it needs them. Without them, there is no it.

So, when Saturn says that she's going to bring her silence glaive down, but starts the death reborn revolution instead of getting right to it, that tells me that dropping the silence glaive is the final part of the process, not a separate entity. I've already given relevant points and logic as to why else that is so, in other words, so I'll leave it at that. I just wanted to clarify my position and rationale for the record, not to argue further. Past experience has taught me not to expect anything beyond my own actions.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:04 am

right, ok I see what you mean now.

however i still think they are separate attacks. the problem being is the only way to know for sure is to ask the author.
who, given how long it's been, probably dosnt remember if they are the same attack or two different ones.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:20 am

If you saw what I meant, then you wouldn't still be in disagreement with me. :wink: :P

I'm sure Takeuchi still knows the exact nature of all of Saturn's powers, so it's just a matter of actually sending the question to her and getting a response in return. She's answered questions about the series in the past, but I don't recall this particular subject being broached (probably because the Japanese audience did not find it unclear and in need of clarification).

You know, if the new anime -- which is supposed to be more faithful to the manga -- produces the third story arc, we just might get a better idea regarding the nature of Saturn's attack(s).
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:11 am

Just because I see what you mean dose not mean I agree with it.

oh she still responds to questions on it? didn't know that. They probably don't ask questions on it due to what they get told in chapter 30, despite it being, as you said, and anecdotal account of events. I choose to believe that what they said in that part to be accurate, after all Pluto would know wouldn't she given the nature of the time gates looking at what happened back then would be possible.

aye I forgot they were remaking the series, given how popular it was in the past they probably will do all of them.
they would probably leave out the whole doom tree bit thou, I heard that it wasn't canon.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:52 am

I was joking. I used two emoticons to try and emphasize that. Oh, well.

I don't know if she answers questions via (E-)mail, but if you can send a question her way, who knows?

I'm not saying that what is said isn't accurate in and of itself, but that there's a real potential for the absence of details. Like I explained before, about them focusing on the part that they fear the most: that doesn't mean that it wasn't accompanied by other things. It shouldn't be assumed that anecdotal evidence will provide every detail that there is to know about something, or else you'll commit a logical fallacy.

The Doom Tree is a part of the anime's canon, I suppose. Toei wanted Takeuchi to continue making her manga, who hadn't intended to go any further than the first story, and the Doom Tree story was supposed to give Takeuchi time to continue and catch up, so both the anime and manga could be produced at the same time.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:26 am

I don't really get emotes or smiles, wasnt something i was interested in, besides i kinda grew up without a computer till i was 10-11 ish and then Starcraft was all I played.

It could just be something no one really notices or takes for granted, or they think that they know the answer so there's no point in asking. Like in Harry Potter and the Philosophers stone, a ghost gets' petrified (turned to stone or ghost stone...whatever) and a potion brings it back. people just accept it, but how dose a non-corporeal being be effected by a corporal being or object. partially as it's shown they cannot interact with the physical world beyond hearing people talk and replying to them. I didn't question it till Robst brought it up in Old Crow.

Unless it is proven that something is wrong, i tend to accept flashbacks as the authors way of relaying an important bit of information. given its also repeatedly said that she only needs to bring the glaive down.

I kinda hated the whole Doom Tree arc in the anime, it just dose not feel as good. But then Usagi did remove their memories of what happened so they needed someway to bring em back, why not some filler while the author works on the main story. A little bit of filler is fine, but dragon ball they spend episode upon episode doing nothing but talking or powering up an attack. along with bleach and naruto that seem to be nothing but filler at times (not that i watch naruto). I guess it's so much easyer to make a episode now a days then back then that they need the filler while the author makes something they can make as whole arc.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:19 am

I didn't really have an opportunity to use a computer regularly until I was around twenty, so... :P

The Harry Potter example is a different issue entirely, regarding the suspension of disbelief rather than the making of an assumption.

Ah, but does anyone say -- at any time -- that she only needs to drop the silence glaive? You better check and make sure, because I doubt a single person ever uses that magic word. If it's not used even once, that would make your certainty over the matter an assumption or guess at best, not fact. Also, blind acceptance without properly reading the context properly is bound to cause mistakes in logic.

Well, if you haven't guessed already, I don't much care for the anime. While the manga has its own issues, I think it's vastly superior without the logic-breaking monster-of-the-week formula, and having the characters be more distinct (personality-wise). Also, the characters are just better in general. Don't ask me to count the ways, though, because I should be writing fan-fiction instead, and I really shouldn't be doing even this much socializing... <_<;
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