misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

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misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:29 am

One thing that has been annoying me for quite some time is the amount of people that think the Death Reborn Revolution is Saturn's planet killer attack.
In the Manga she use's it against Pharaoh 90 then follows it up with her ultimate attack which is what kills her and everyone not a senshi.
In the Anime she even uses the Death Reborn against Nehelenia and lives after using it....at least I think that happens been ages since I watched it.
even a quick search of the term Death Reborn Revolution on yahoo brings up this site http://www.genvid.com/diesgaudii/drr/index.html that explains what happened in the Manga.

given what I found out her ability's consist of.
1) a ability to heal wounds, in both civilian and senshi form.
2) the silence wall protective shield.
3)the Silence Glaive Surprise attack, emits a sort of wave of energy in the wake of the Glaive's passing.
4) the death reborn revolution, probably a concentrated ball of Silence energy or mana fired at a enermy.
5) unnamed attack. brings down the but of the Silence Glaive with the intent of ending everything/killing everyone etc (unsure of exact requirement, intent is required though). this attack also kills the user.

I've read quite a few stories that are great up to the point where they haven't done their research and say the Death Reborn kills Saturn. How common is it that people actually know this is not the case. and why don't people know this, particularly those writing Fics with it.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Spica75 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:09 am

I've read quite a few stories that are great up to the point where they haven't done their research and say the Death Reborn kills Saturn. How common is it that people actually know this is not the case. and why don't people know this, particularly those writing Fics with it.

It´s an easy mistake to make due to how limited Saturns "screentime" is, she´s not exactly given much chance to show off.

Just think of how much confusion there is/was about even just the name of DRE.

Basically, if the story is otherwise good, just ignore the mistake. I even know a couple who has written it like that on purpose, well knowing that it´s not canon.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:20 am

when it pops up once or twice in a good story i do ignore it, if if a good story that repeatedly says it kills her (like every few chapters/conversation on her powers) i tend to give up and go onto the next.

Not sure to the other, who has done it on purpose?
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:18 pm

I don't really care about it unless it's blatantly incorrect or at odds with the logic of the plot.

I say that because it's both vague and inconsistent. When does the attack start: when it's announced, or when the silence glaive is dropped (not literally)? Does it otherwise have a charge time, or phases, with the latter explaining whatever she does between announcing the attack and dropping the silence glaive? If it's supposed to end everything, and she killed the outer senshi after the fall of the moon kingdom, why/how were there survivors on Earth? Even better: why bother doing that in the first place? Is it a case of: if we can't have it, neither can you? And in that case, apparently she had been sealed away again, rather than reborn, so what gives?

It's simply full of fail. ;/
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:14 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:I don't really care about it unless it's blatantly incorrect or at odds with the logic of the plot.

I say that because it's both vague and inconsistent. When does the attack start: when it's announced, or when the silence glaive is dropped (not literally)? Does it otherwise have a charge time, or phases, with the latter explaining whatever she does between announcing the attack and dropping the silence glaive? If it's supposed to end everything, and she killed the outer senshi after the fall of the moon kingdom, why/how were there survivors on Earth? Even better: why bother doing that in the first place? Is it a case of: if we can't have it, neither can you? And in that case, apparently she had been sealed away again, rather than reborn, so what gives?

It's simply full of fail. ;/



Ok first the there is no announcement to the attack and no charge phase, all she has to do is place the bottom of the Silence Glaive on the floor with the right intent.

Second perhaps I was a bit vague, but the attack only kills everyone on the planet, or at least it dose in the Manga. when she used it to destroy Pharoah 90 it killed everyone baring the inner Senshi, which is odd but the attack could have been focused on Pharoah 90.

Third there is no proof of her using it after Metallia attacks, or even of Saturn even being summoned. If i remember right Saturn can only be awoken if all three talismans are brought together. I think in the anime she only wakes up after the Grail has been formed.

Fourth, it is never clear if there were humans on the other planets besides Earth and the Moon only that Queen Serenity sent some souls into the future.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:13 am

1: In the manga (this applies to all of my replies), she does announce the attack, and she doesn't drop the silence glaive immediately afterward. However, I was wrong about the other part, which takes place before both.

2: It never states exactly what it does, but her arrival means "the end of the world," and she did wipe out the Silver Millennium after Metallia had been sealed away in the past. Speaking of which...

3: Yes, the three talismans were brought together in the past, Saturn was summoned, and the outer senshi were killed along with the Silver Millennium's destruction.

4: Sailor V, the prequel to Sailor Moon, establishes that there were at least some people on Venus. If people can live on a planet as uninhabitable as Venus, it's very possible that other planets were inhabited as well. Plus, every planet was orbited by a palace that belonged to its respective sailor senshi, which makes it even more likely how far the human populace had spread out beyond the Earth and its moon.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:22 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:1: In the manga (this applies to all of my replies), she does announce the attack, and she doesn't drop the silence glaive immediately afterward. However, I was wrong about the other part, which takes place before both.
when dose she announce the attack, my sources show 4 page gap between the Death Reborn, then her bringing the Glaive down, she's not even in the pose or casting the Death Reborn anymore. in fact all she says is "You abominable creature!" Saturn says. "Invader! Return to nothingness! Then the death for this world!". no spell just a statement then end of everything.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:2: It never states exactly what it does, but her arrival means "the end of the world," and she did wipe out the Silver Millennium after Metallia had been sealed away in the past. Speaking of which...
There is a lot of paranoia about her being the bringer of silence and bringing the end of the world. (some sort of prophecy too.) Dose not mean she has to, she didn't kill everyone when Nehelnia and Galaxia appeared.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:3: Yes, the three talismans were brought together in the past, Saturn was summoned, and the outer senshi were killed along with the Silver Millennium's destruction.
Really? show me. all I ever found implied the outer's died before the talismans were brought together.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:4: Sailor V, the prequel to Sailor Moon, establishes that there were at least some people on Venus. If people can live on a planet as uninhabitable as Venus, it's very possible that other planets were inhabited as well. Plus, every planet was orbited by a palace that belonged to its respective sailor senshi, which makes it even more likely how far the human populace had spread out beyond the Earth and its moon.
again not information I've come across and I though the palace orbiting each planet was fanon.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:02 am

Moridin wrote:when dose she announce the attack, my sources show 4 page gap between the Death Reborn, then her bringing the Glaive down, she's not even in the pose or casting the Death Reborn anymore. in fact all she says is "You abominable creature!" Saturn says. "Invader! Return to nothingness! Then the death for this world!". no spell just a statement then end of everything.
She announces it a few pages before she says anything like that to Pharaoh 90, and after the announcement we see a host of ribbons spread out from her.

There is a lot of paranoia about her being the bringer of silence and bringing the end of the world. (some sort of prophecy too.) Dose not mean she has to, she didn't kill everyone when Nehelnia and Galaxia appeared.
I have no idea where the paranoia and prophecy come from.

Also, she's only summoned to end the world when there's no chance of victory. With Nehelenia, it hadn't gotten to the point where Usagi tried to kamikaze the enemy, like she had with Pharaoh 90. In Galaxia's case, she was killed long before things could reach that point, as one of the first casualties.

Plus, after being reborn, raised by the outer senshi, and reawakened once more, it was clearly stated that their roles were different from that point forward, and she didn't have to be sealed away only to appear and perform a specific duty when certain conditions were met.

Really? show me. all I ever found implied the outer's died before the talismans were brought together.

Find it online, somewhere, since my source is offline and I have neither a scanner or a digital camera.

What I can tell you is that it happened in act/chapter thirty. This is when the sailor senshi turn on each other because of a witch's ability, Sailor Moon uses the grail for the first time, the three talismans react during this, and then the outer senshi explain (in a fair amount of detail) why said reaction had been unexpected (because Saturn had been summoned when it had happened last time).

again not information I've come across and I though the palace orbiting each planet was fanon.

Nope, it's canon. For the manga, at least. They were mainly featured in the last story arc of the Sailor Moon manga, when the outer senshi were going to use theirs to put up a shield around the entire solar system (!).
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:11 am

[quote="Crescent Pulsar S"
She announces it a few pages before she says anything like that to Pharaoh 90, and after the announcement we see a host of ribbons spread out from her.[/quote]

she announces the death reborn which is the host of ribbon spread form her. after the "You abominable creature!" Saturn says. "Invader! Return to nothingness! Then the death for this world!" bit she casts something else. I'm sure of it, the death reborn and her end of the world spell (press ctrl+alt+del twice :P) are two different things.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Cheb » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:51 am

When me returns home from work I'll post relevant scans from the Japansese original.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:23 am

oh cool thank Cheb. I'm getting a english copy right now. that being said read the thing on this site http://www.genvid.com/diesgaudii/articl ... index.html that nicely proves my point that the death reborn and her end of the world spell are different. it also proves she used both on Pharoah 90 in the manga.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:43 am

It proves no such thing for the manga, which is partly explained below, but also because the reference used was based off of dialogue. Unless the situation calls for it, a person describing something in words isn't going to paint a complete picture; they'll say just enough for whatever message needs to be conveyed. The fact of the matter was that the pivotal moment of her attack, the part that epitomizes it, was when she dropped her silence glaive. Hence, there was no need to get wordy when it could easily be summed up in a single, distinct action.

Moridin wrote:she announces the death reborn which is the host of ribbon spread form her. after the "You abominable creature!" Saturn says. "Invader! Return to nothingness! Then the death for this world!" bit she casts something else. I'm sure of it, the death reborn and her end of the world spell (press ctrl+alt+del twice :P) are two different things.

I'm pretty sure your argument was that she didn't say the name of the attack at all. I'm also guessing that your source isn't the Tokyo Pop translation, and at least one source (if there happens to be more than one) is a wiki.

Either way, along with the ribbons, she also raises the silence glaive and keeps it that way, and during that time something is clearly being drawn into it. That ends when she drops the silence glaive and actually does something that looks like an "end of the world" attack, so they're obviously a part of the same process. There are two other reasons for this, with the first being rather obvious: all major attacks tend to get a name within the context of this sub-genre, even if it's to add "super" or "double/triple" to an existing one. Sometimes it's even for rather normal-looking attacks, like a jump kick being given a fancy name. The other is in regard to effect: in a serious situation like that, and with an attack seemingly greater in power than anyone else's combined, it's going to be dramatic rather than instant and anticlimactic. Just dropping the silence glaive with intent happens to be the latter.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:05 am

ok first my source is the link in my first post and one of the later posts (different page same person just more info)

second she never says the name of the attack. the thing she says immediatly before it to Pharoah 90 is just a statement of intent. she cast's the death reborn, it dose not kill him. she state that she will kill him and end the world. then brings the Silence Glaive down, which is what people have been saying is all she needs to do to end the world all along. They are two completly different attacks.

The second is your argument about "all major attacks getting a name within the context of this sub-genre".
why would this have to be the case, sure most attacks like 'moon tiara action' get called out as they are used. however would it not be more dramatic to have a move that can end the world not have a name or a long build up? something without a name that can kill everyone more or less instantly is much more scary than something with a name that has a build up.

Take the Avada Kedavra from harry potter. it has to be said, has a travel time and kills instantly once it hits. it also cannot be blocked by a magical shield. very scary yes?
except it can be dodged or blocked with a solid enough object.
on the other hand a 50 caliber sniper rifle can kill someone from a mile away, cant be dodged as you don't know it is coming. luck or a bad shot from the shooter is the only way to survive it as the bullet travels faster than the sound of it being fired.

the "Moon Tiara action" attack was caught by a Youma in the anime, many of their attacks that take time to build up have been stopped mid cast. sure a little scary having the attack announced if you are not strong enough to defend from it or fast enough to get out of the way. something that has no announcement, no or next to no build up time is much more effective an scary for blowing up a planet.

Saturn's end of the world attack is just like the death star in star wars, everyone knows about it, is scared of it and it's very difficult if not impossible to stop it from killing you or whatever planet it happens to be aimed at.


edit. also just acquired and read the tokyo pop translation. when she drops the Silence Glaive there are no ribbons, it is clear that the death reborn has already run it's course.
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:30 am

Is that your (roundabout) argument for why an attack doesn't need a name, in a sub-genre that tends (why did you leave that word out in your quote?) to use names for attacks, especially regarding significant ones? You're going to base it on an opinion? And then comparing them to weapons used outside of context? I mean, come on. Did you ever see anyone in Star Wars call out a name of an attack even half of the time they used their blasters, lightsabers or "the force" in some fashion or another? So, of course the Death Star doesn't need to have something like that. ;/

Either way, you've yet to prove that there's no connection to the attack announced and her dropping the silence glaive. In fact, Pharaoh 90 was already losing power caused by an attack prior to the announcement, so why call out an attack that effectively does the same thing? Why does she hold her silence glaive in position starting when she announces the attack, where it looks like it's gathering power, before she drops it? Also, between the announcement, dropping the silence glaive, and forcing Pharaoh 90 upward, the only real change is the intensity of what's happening, not its nature, which is more evidence that it's likely the same attack. Or, if dropping the silence glaive is just a more powerful version of the death reborn revolution, it makes no sense to not name it as well (even if it's just "super death reborn revolution," or "death reborn revolution MK2.")

(Yes, I'm aware that I originally said that the start of the attack was inconsistent, but that was before I had my memory refreshed and had another look at it. I apologize if that has caused any confusion.)
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Re: misconceptions about Saturn's attacks

Postby Moridin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:50 am

First I missread your post with the Tend part i what i qouted.

second when did i use Star wars to make a comparison apart from the futility that fighting the death star is to stopping Saturn's ultimate attack. the comparison was more about how much more scary something that you cant hear or dose not have a name is. particually given the general fear the scouts have towards her and her attack and the whole Messiah of Silence thing.

finally she announces the attack Death reborn Revolution that hurts him alot then says that i will destroy you and end the world speach where there is no sighn of the death reborn still being active. she brings down the glaive everyone but the senshi die and Pharoah 90 tries to bugger off back to Tau ceti. Pluto then dose something to seal away/kill him with the time gate and saturn tells moon she can bring back everyone using the grail.
also she starts to use the attack against Nehelenia or whatever the manga calls it, again without annoucing anything or saying "Death Reborn Revoltion" and chibi-usa stops her.

I also don't see what replying to you is worth anything as you are obviously not open to changing your mind on this, going so far as to ignore the sources i sited and scorning my comparison between the death star and saturn's final attack by ranting about the weapons/force abilitys in star wars not being announced. why argue with someone who seem to not be able to or refuses to try and see the other persons point.
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