Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:56 pm

My main point wasn't that Usagi was meant to come out victorious (even though that's true, let's face it), but it would be unrealistic to ignore what the writers would have done with three less sailor senshi, and I've noted what they have to work with and why they still would have been enough for the good guys to pull through.

For instance, it makes no sense to assume that Venus would still wait to appear at the same time, when the circumstances would clearly be different. It would also be wrong to assume that every monster, scheme and encounter will repeat itself along a timeline that no longer exists. (And those assumptions are not suggested by the topic's subject or their opening post, unless you know SailorStar9 well enough to see through the mistake that they had made in the conveyance of their question, which looks open-ended to me.) For all we know, there wouldn't be 40-46 episodes in the first season, there might not be as many youma/schemes to deal with, and whichever ones that happen to be used might not occur in the same order. Heck, maybe being alone and having to rely more on herself for a longer period of time might actually help Usagi to get her shit together. In the end, though, all any one of us can do is guess about those things.

As for Usagi dealing with the "cops" in the airport, that would depend on whether it still happens, and how she has developed by herself by whatever time it takes place. If she's more competent, which is where I would expect the writers to take things, she'll be sure to deal with them somehow. Even if that's not the case, and she's little different from the canon where she has two teammates, if it turns out to be hopeless she's always got that "wail of doom" thing, which I'll assume can take care of/incapacitate small fry (even if they're mud golems) long enough for an escape, unless it actually manages to defeat them.
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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby Spica75 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:46 pm

My main point wasn't that Usagi was meant to come out victorious (even though that's true, let's face it), but it would be unrealistic to ignore what the writers would have done with three less sailor senshi, and I've noted what they have to work with and why they still would have been enough for the good guys to pull through.

I have a feeling that the point of the question was not in regards to meta-thinking.
Ie, not a question of what any -writers- would have made of it.
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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby PCHeintz72 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:07 pm

Look... if the *only* change is the fact those three senshi did not awaken, then you have major league issues. As nothing else would have changed at first... the very first change relevant to the story would have been when Mercury did not awaken when the youma was draining students with the infected programs/computers.

The dark kingdom would have still had the same number of youma either way at series start.

The dark kingdom generals would have still been of the same mindset and dispositions to create same/similar plans as in canon.

Beryl still would have been unstable.

Yes... changes would snowball... but it would take time.

Juuban would have still been the perfect target for the dark kingdom.

Venus aka Sailor V is certainly known... but could not have appeared too much earlier, she was to my understanding not even in the country... until just before her appearance as fake Sailor Moon.

And if you believe Usagi would win with or without those three senshi, and I've already commented how important it is they fight as a team, then it is not me putting down the three senshis efforts and affects on plot, it is you guys not giving them the credit they are do for adding their abilities to make the wins...

The only thing I can think of that would save Moon would have been to do something more drastic, like have the outers awakened... but then what is the point of not having the original three if you merely change her support group. Then comes the questions of how, and why... at this point, they did not know where they were, and in fact Luna though her main contact was still central, not a disguised Artimus...

The only benefit I see to outers helping instead of inners is the fact they might force her to grow up faster.

I reiterate, fighting alone, there is no way whatsoever I think she could survive. Later perhaps... but not from the start.
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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:02 am

You're right that the first changes would start when Ami is supposed to make an appearance, if we don't take into account any forethought behind the series' creation, but you're forgetting who scouted her out as a person of interest in the first place: "central control," aka Artemis. I imagine that Artemis would need to be in Japan to "sense" anything being given off by Ami, in order to arrive at such a conclusion, and if he's there then I imagine that Venus is around as well. (And Artemis does seem to say "we" during his conference with Luna.) So, Venus has the potential to help out as early as Mercury would normally have. And since Luna was getting new reconnaissance information at that point, which suggests that there was stuff shared before, Artemis and Venus might very well have been around a good while before that.

As for Venus pretending to be sailor moon, I don't believe that happened that early in the anime, did it? I know she pretends to be Sailor Moon later, like, in... the third season, was it? If I remember correctly, in the anime she wasn't doing anything with the Negaverse before returning to Japan, and was fighting crime with some kind of organization or something, actually working with normal people while a sailor senshi.

And I think I've given those three sailor senshi all the credit they deserve. My opinion of them would be different if we had been talking about the manga, since they can not only take care of the small fry individually, but the bigger fish are usually within their grasp as well. They really don't offer much in the anime, especially considering how often it's Tuxedo Kamen who is the one that has to get them all out of a bind, doing better at the role that those three are supposed to have, who have little else to offer. The only one who has anything substantial to bring to the table is Mercury, with her tools, but who's to say that Luna or Artemis couldn't have made something like that for Usagi or Minako? Heck, the cats watch the fights often enough, and they've communicated to the battlefield before, so it's not like they can't use the tools themselves and relay the information.

Spica75 wrote:I have a feeling that the point of the question was not in regards to meta-thinking.
Ie, not a question of what any -writers- would have made of it.

I think it went without saying. But if I'm wrong, and the desired nature of the answer is more specific than the question would suggest, SailorStar9 is more than welcome to set me straight.
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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby PCHeintz72 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:42 am

And I think I've given those three sailor senshi all the credit they deserve. My opinion of them would be different if we had been talking about the manga, since they can not only take care of the small fry individually, but the bigger fish are usually within their grasp as well. They really don't offer much in the anime, especially considering how often it's Tuxedo Kamen who is the one that has to get them all out of a bind, doing better at the role that those three are supposed to have, who have little else to offer. The only one who has anything substantial to bring to the table is Mercury, with her tools, but who's to say that Luna or Artemis couldn't have made something like that for Usagi or Minako? Heck, the cats watch the fights often enough, and they've communicated to the battlefield before, so it's not like they can't use the tools themselves and relay the information.

No... because if you are saying Moon would win without them, or that Minako could do the work of Minako, Ami, Makoto, and Mars, you are either giving Minako way too much credit, or the missing ones too little.

And if anything, you give Mask too much credit...
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Re: Classic Season: Without Mercury, Mars or Jupiter

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:45 am

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for Usagi to win by herself, it's just a matter of details and what you want to happen. I think it's very possible depending on Tuxedo Kamen's and Sailor Venus' roles, especially if the lack of three sailor senshi causes changes that would make them even more helpful to Usagi when compared to their canon exploits.

I don't think Minako would be making up for those three in addition to herself, especially the earlier she arrives. Unlike those three, she would already be experienced, and offers just about everything that they do except in regard to Mercury's tools, and I see no reason why using those kinds of tools couldn't be another's responsibility. Between the magic and technology that can be brought to bear, and the two cats, anything's possible. Even making tools that are single-purpose, and click-of-a-button-easy to use, it still wouldn't be a problem thanks to that wonderful place where things are stored until they need to be used, so there's no issue of where they could be carried.

I think I'm giving Tuxedo Kamen the credit he's due. The amount of times he fails in his attempt to distract the enemy and/or save the sailor senshi from being at said enemy's mercy, compared to how often he succeeds, is practically negligible. (Mind you, I'm mostly basing that on the first season, before he was captured, 'cause my memory of his record beyond that is sketchy at best.) Which is pretty much the opposite of the inner senshi, who almost always find themselves on the ropes and/or in need of saving. Some of the rare exceptions is when one of the sailor senshi come into a new power, and how often does that happen?

And if Neptune and Uranus join the fray, then I'd say that Usagi would have things in the bag for sure. If I remember correctly, Neptune awakens on her own, who -- in turn -- awakens Uranus. Exactly when Neptune awakens is uncertain, I believe, but it's likely possible that it could happen around the time that Sailor Moon awakens, if not before. Normally, Neptune and Uranus don't make an appearance until later, but if Artemis and/or Sailor Venus/Minako can sense something from Ami, then it's not impossible for Usagi to meet them, even if it happens to be under the suspicion that they might be bad guys. This should be possible if the lack of three sailor senshi puts on more pressure to find more help, which would -- in turn -- change the canon search perimeters.
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