The Bitter End Syndrome

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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Spica75 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:32 am

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:Would you care to bet on your chance of success?


:mrgreen:

Depends, but i can be quite sneaky so, decent chances hopefully. At least first time.
If i could send a younger me, i could fake being a girl and exploit his blind spots in that regard.
For some reason, until i got a beard, people sometimes mistook me for a girl, and i also very successfully faked it once as a prank.
:P
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:02 am

For the last bit, about an accounting of wrongdoing and analysis of their relationship, I recall over ten years ago an in-depths analysis of just that posted to either Usenet or another forum like anifics.

Does anybody have a link or saved copy?
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Pata Hikari » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:15 pm

Spica75 wrote:Not hyperbole if you look at it from Akane´s point of view. And since it´s she that is the target, her point of view is really the only relevant.


Uh, I'm sorry to say but Akane didn't really worry about the boy's that much. She was annoyed by them, yes, and they were definately responcible for her "I hate boys" phase early in the series. But there's no real indication she was particularly afraid of them. I mean, she didn't exactly jump for joy at the end to their harrassment, she was simply glad that an annoyance was gone.

Spica75 wrote:Now you´re being ridiculously unfair. Akane has basically spent her whole life with martial arts as a primary part of it, and has been a top dog in the area all the time, all her life, she has been given no reason to think she isn´t.


And, uh, here's another chunk of fanon.

Akane never concidered herself to the be best martial artist around, and she wasn't really. She definately likes doing martial arts, yes, and is absolutely a very good one.

But even at the start of the series, she talks about how she "somehow" always wins against Kuno. She doesn't rebutt Ranma's guess that he holds back on her, and when Kuno goes all out against Ranma when he's male her reaction is to tease Ranma about Kuno fighting seriously.

Not to mention that she accepts her losses to Ranma with grace.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:02 pm

Spica75 wrote:Not hyperbole if you look at it from Akane´s point of view. And since it´s she that is the target, her point of view is really the only relevant.

Why not try your own advice, then? Go ahead; tell me exactly when she looked or thought of those boys and had an expression on her face, a look in her eyes, or mentally thought, "I'm going to be raped," at any point.

Really...

Sorry, but you get a fail in psychology here.

You're just making a statement against me without even making an attempt at presenting proof, a classic example of ad hominem.

Also, do note the use of "particularly," because I'm not saying that she was untouched. She coped with the experience well enough, and can still function just fine around boys in general. At worst, she has a low opinion about boys.

Yes, because someone appearing to be the direct opposite to the usual "boys" getting a different reaction is such a surprise? Note emphasis on "appearing to be"(as far as Akane sees).

She doesn't have a problem with boys in general, so long as they don't impose themselves upon her. Despite his antics, both past and present, she's rather patient and tolerant with Tatewaki, too. Even when he makes his advances, she reacts no differently than when anyone else does something worthy of a physical response. Or, when Ryoga wasn't listening to her and tried to get intimate (under the mistaken impression that she had been making advances), and she couldn't stop him, her thoughts weren't even remotely close to being about the possibility of being raped, but of being crushed by his hug. There she was, in a position where someone with even a bit of irrational fear about being raped would likely show signs of such when being pursued by an unstoppable man with intimate intentions, and she keeps her head and correctly deduces what the real problem is.

Seriously? :roll:

Do you realise you´re basically saying that Ranma gets a free pass because he´s mentally ill?
How a person acts is a CHOICE. Getting attacked and harassed by people is a choice by those attacking.
Claiming that Ranma is unable to control how he acts, yes that strongly infers he is mentally ill.

It's hard to realize when that's not what I'm saying. You might like to think that I was, but I'll have to settle for disappointing you. Frankly, I'm flummoxed that what I said could be misconstrued as presenting a case of mental illness, or that you'd believe that I'd do that without expressly saying so.

I'm pretty sure that I clearly stated that how they acted was ultimately their choice. That includes the reactions to the choices that others impose. The human mind isn't so simple that the same circumstances will always affect different people the same way. Just as much as most can choose how they act, they can also choose how to react. There also isn't even a guarantee that prolonged exposure to something will affect them, which includes how much if it does, and how long that takes.

Now, I never claimed anything to the effect that either of them couldn't control how they act or react, or that anyone got a free pass; I'm pretty sure that I mentioned "there are no excuses for any of their behavior" in at least one of my posts. I only said that, between the two of them, Ranma has a greater excuse for having the hardest time changing his ways. Akane's experience with the boys at school was relatively short compared to the experiences that fostered Ranma's arrogance, for instance; his experiences were a regular part of his life while Akane's was a deviation from her own norm late in her life (based on her current age, of course). That doesn't necessarily mean that Akane's experience is depreciated by comparison, but she had enough experience to recognize it as a problem to begin with, to not accept it as normal, and had the mental fortitude to deal with it well enough for as long as it lasted, whereas Ranma wasn't even aware that the things that would breed and ingrain arrogance within him was a thing. And, let's be honest, Genma isn't a paragon of parenthood or morality, and thus can't be depended on doing a good job of instilling the qualities that are commonly expected of a decent and well-balanced individual in society at any point in their development.

Now you´re being ridiculously unfair. Akane has basically spent her whole life with martial arts as a primary part of it, and has been a top dog in the area all the time, all her life, she has been given no reason to think she isn´t.

And you really fail psychology here. Akane is insecure not arrogant, being "perfect"(perfect at school, perfect martial artist, perfect girl...) is her way of dealing with it. And then Ranma and the loonies arrive and suddenly she´s not even close to the top, while Kuno has ruined it at school, and then Ranma the BOY claims to be a better girl.

I'd have to say that you're the one being ridiculously unfair. You're making the same case for Akane that you could for Ranma, but she somehow gets the pass. And, not only do you downplay the time when she's given a reason to reevaluate her standing in the martial arts arena, your excuse is that it's all simply a case of insecurity. While I won't say that there isn't -- or couldn't be -- any insecurity involved, I will argue that there's more arrogance involved than that. That, and we can't assume that just any occasion where she tries to prove herself, or acts competent when the challenge is beyond her, is founded on insecurity, or mainly so. Considering how often and confidently she's rushed into danger, despite the challenge(s) presented, I don't think that insecurity is the real issue with her, particularly since she has nothing to prove in most of those cases.

Also, I'm noticing that Ranma isn't also being considered for insecurities, which he most certainly has. It's also much more understandable for him as well, considering that martial arts isn't just his life, and very likely will be his livelihood, but that his strength, manliness and giri are tangled up in it as well. For Akane, martial arts is usually no more important than a hobby, and she could certainly live out the rest of her life just fine without placing emphasis on it, and that's a luxury that Ranma doesn't get to have. (After all, whether or not Akane has any personal expectation in regard to her martial arts, she's free to do whatever she wants with it without consequence. It's Ranma who is expected to inherit the dojo, which was why all of Soun's daughters were offered as possible wives, where two-thirds of them weren't martial artists; at least, not anywhere comparable to Akane, who herself falls short in comparison to Ranma.)

:|

Ugh, that would take waaaayy too much time.

That's the cost of being accurate. Claims based on small samples, or perceived majorities without an ample amount of specified examples that can be compared, are no better than opinions and assumptions.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:33 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Why not try your own advice, then? Go ahead; tell me exactly when she looked or thought of those boys and had an expression on her face, a look in her eyes, or mentally thought, "I'm going to be raped," at any point.

That's because by that point she was confident about being able to beat them off [sans stick].

I imagine the first couple times she had a different reaction, but this had already been going on a while by the time Ranma arrived.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:47 pm

I don't believe that her initial reaction would have entertained any thoughts of rape, either, though. She'd be surprised, unless she got wind of it, but I have no doubt in my mind that she would have been confident that she could handle a horde of boys that first time, and had no reason to believe that it was anything but a martial arts challenge, even if she didn't agree with the terms. After all, they're being open about their desire, made it public, and haven't -- to our knowledge -- tried to take advantage of her in secret. There's nothing to suggest that it was anything but a weird way of trying to get a date with Akane, and her past experience with being perceived as a boy (or boy-like) by her peers, and even assuming male roles, also lends to the possibility that getting rough with the boys isn't so unusual for her to begin with.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Cheb » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:09 am

I think there's a possible interpretation (that I use in my fic) that the surprise engagement was for her like being a sacrificial lamb offered to Ranma, like her entire family betrayed her.
In short, she was suddenly declared a fair game for a guy she didn't know yet, and there would be no help and he proved to be much stronger.
That had to sour their relationship significantly, at least in the beginning.
Added on top of the hentai horde and coupled with hear unhealthy habit of watching late-night movies that are bodice-rippers at best... yeah. :x

Back to the topic, the entire "bitter end" is this:
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:01 am

Cheb wrote:Added on top of the hentai horde and coupled with hear unhealthy habit of watching late-night movies that are bodice-rippers at best... yeah. :x

One could see this as her having a secret kink for being manhandled. :P
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:30 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:One could see this as her having a secret kink for being manhandled. :P

One could, and such kinks exist; but putting aside arguments over slapstick or serious, Ranma 1/2 is not ecchi.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:38 pm

That's just a little bit arguable. Certainly, it's far from the main focus, but it has its moments. At least, I consider nudity to be ecchi, and plenty of ecchi titles don't go beyond conveniently-accidental groping and seeing the goods without the audience seeing them as well. And Ranma 1/2 does have its fair share of that, too.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:48 pm

I saw the intro episodes for Akane when she's shown naked in the bath and the episode where Shampoo mailed herself to the Tendo Dojo as ecchi.
Shampoo showing up in Ranma's bed, and the scene in the bath were definitely ecchi.

That said, the whole thing about saying Akane has a kink about being groped or attacked seems to me to be blaming the victim. It's just like saying to a person who was targetted by a group of boys for constant harassment that "you must be doing something to encourage them. Figure out what it is and stop doing it and they'll leave you alone. Also ignore them, they're just doing it to get a rise out of you. If you didn't feed into them and ignored them, they would stop" when in reality ignoring them just causes escalation and once you are selected as a target, nothing you can do within school rules will get them to change. Fight back and you get in trouble. Get attacked and you are both held equally to blame.
I have first-hand experience with this, and I can say that they had Akane's attitude such that the attacks were unwanted but there was nothing she could do to get them to stop short of crippling them.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:36 pm

slickrcbd wrote:I saw the intro episodes for Akane when she's shown naked in the bath and the episode where Shampoo mailed herself to the Tendo Dojo as ecchi.
Shampoo showing up in Ranma's bed, and the scene in the bath were definitely ecchi.

I'm so-so about this. Japanese bathing culture is not the same as ours. In My Neighbor Totoro, the whole family is in the furo together, nude. In Tenchi Muyo Ryo-Ohki, there are mixed-sex onsen scenes. (Ryoko keeps trying to turn them ecchi, but she doesn't have much luck. She usually gets a fight instead.)

When I think ecchi, I think of things like Kekko Kamen. There you got gals eager for a bit of persecution, if only for the rescue.

We all have our personal senses of proportion. I consider Shampoo in the furo with Ranma to be slapstick of the sexual sort. Your mileage may vary.

If you want ecchi Ranma, you want Nihao, My Concubine. That scene of a topless Ranma-chan doing the Gainax Bounce down the beach qualifies. I, My, Me, Strawberry Eggs (wherever they got that title) is a sentimental and well-behaved series, but that panty shot in the first episode sours the whole thing.

Perhaps a scene thrown in for prurient interest can be enough to taint a series or a movie -- especially if it could be edited out without harming the story. A scene that's part of the story (e.g. Shampoo in the furo) has to be more blatant to ruin things or change the flavor.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:07 pm

Bathing culture and perversions/erotic behavior are different, though. It's not ecchi if all they're doing is cleaning or soaking in the nude, but add a Happosai touching a girl inappropriately, regardless of when or where it happens, and you've entered ecchi territory. Panty shots, "accidental" groping or falling face-first into a girl's cleavage or crotch, are all cases of ecchi. It's also very common to thread it in with humor to take the inappropriate/vulgar bite out of them, which is partly why there's so much ecchi appearing with comedy; if it can be seen as perverted or erotic in nature, not even slapstick can stop it from being ecchi.

slickrcbd wrote:That said, the whole thing about saying Akane has a kink about being groped or attacked seems to me to be blaming the victim.

Aside from it not being about blaming the victim, which makes no sense, it was a joke. I was pointing out that the same person who provided a thrown-to-the-wolves case also presented Akane's interest (she certainly didn't turn away, find something else to watch, or otherwise react to it badly) in shows where a woman is assaulted/molested by a man behaving like an animal.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:30 pm

I apologize for missing the point.
Although I should point out that while I wholeheartedly agree that blaming the victim makes no sense, I was on the receiving end of that for five years around 20 years ago and many people in charge of discipline in schools wholeheartedly believe in that. I can only think that they rationalize it that it's not five troublemakers conspiring, it's just one troublemaker "playing victim" and thus it's easier to go after the one person than five and makes the school less likely to look like they have a bullying problem. Thus they put the onus on the victim to stop the incidents from happening, and wash their hands of it.

I don't know if that is true, I'm drawing conclusions from the fact that when a group of students had singled out a student for constant harassment and generally only went for their preferred target, the school assigned the blame on the victim and put the onus on him to stop the incidents of violence that resulted even when the victim never threw the first punch.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Cheb » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:32 pm

Yeah, she was demolishing cookies, her eyes glued to the screen with a sick fascination.
The next moment Ranma suddenly *groped* her.
It was very funny.
At her expense.
It is always at someone's expense. :roll:
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