The Bitter End Syndrome

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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby windstorm » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:10 pm

My opinion from both the manga and TV show is that Akane is usually more at fault than Ranma for the problems in their relationship. Even though Ranma is often tactless, Akane overreacts far too easily. To be fair a lot of this is because of slapstick humour or the author playing it up for laughs.

Despite that though I generally find Ranma's actions a bit easier to understand and usually more excusable. From anecdotal memory around 1/2 to 3/4 of the times he insults Akane it is after she has already insulted him or something she took the wrong way. Akane is also too quick to jump to physical violence without much provocation. Ranma's reactions to someone insulting him aren't surprising, most people don't take that lying down and considering how Genma raised him insult contests were probably a daily thing. He hasn't had a lot of social interaction growing up and was raised to be extremely competitive so he doesn't really know how to back down very well.

Akane might get a pass to some extent for the boys attacking her at school and having the engagement pushed on her. Easy ways for stress to build up. The irony there though is Ranma is pretty much in the same situation, he didn't know about the engagement any earlier than the Tendo sister did and he has multiple girls after him.

On not taking Akane seriously in a fight early on or when she asked him to take her seriously in training, Ranma is just in a way different league plain and simple. Actually fighting her seriously would end up with Akane seriously injured. Ranma never exactly offers to train her but she never asks him clearly if she wants him to help either. Ranma also never overtly says he doesn't fight girls or thinks girls are weak (that's a common fanon misinterpretation). He does say boys will instinctively hold back or hint he is less comfortable with fighting girls, but this is more being honest than meaning it as a slight.

For Ranma being protective of Akane, it isn't that surprising even if he is confused about his feelings for her. At minimum he probably sees her as a friend and has at times gone out of his way to help near perfect strangers. Soun and Genma keep pushing him to protect her and even if he doesn't take what they say that seriously it probably still has some influence or he sees it as a responsibility. In cases with Ryouga, well jealously is definitely a factor, I don't know if I'd be comfortable trusting a guy that sleeps with Akane in pig form either. Akane is more likely just straight up jealous whenever Ranma gets something from his other fiances or another girl and makes pretty baseless accusations about him being a pervert.

All the characters in the manga tend to have their high and low points though so I think you can justify different degrees of behavior at times fairly easy. The 'Ranma's rivals or Genma are straight up evil' or 'Akane is always at fault' plot lines do get kind of boring and are pretty one sided after a while though.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:07 pm

They just aren't a good match, the relationship just doesn't work out. Neither is ready for a relationship in the first place, and it doesn't help that if they show any hints of getting along the fathers are ready them to the alter. Granted, that latter point is more the anime than the manga. However, the fathers do seem to pop up and spoil any moments when they might grow closer trying to push them even faster.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:52 pm

Personally, I don't think they're a good match either, and that it's mostly the will of the author that makes the mutual attraction happen.

windstorm wrote:Ranma also never overtly says he doesn't fight girls or thinks girls are weak (that's a common fanon misinterpretation). He does say boys will instinctively hold back or hint he is less comfortable with fighting girls, but this is more being honest than meaning it as a slight.

I just wanted to point out that Ranma's policy of not fighting girls isn't a fanon misinterpretation. Here's a direct quote from the manga (Viz's translation):

Ranma: "Well, when a guy fights a girl... He lets up a lot."

Akane: "Don't underestimate me. Try me for real sometime."

Ranma: "No way. Violent or not... You're still a girl. I couldn't do it."

If I remember correctly, during the story with Pink and Link, Ranma said that it didn't feel right to fight back against girls. I believe he also says one or two other things that suggest the same kind of thinking in that story.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby windstorm » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:10 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:I just wanted to point out that Ranma's policy of not fighting girls isn't a fanon misinterpretation. Here's a direct quote from the manga (Viz's translation):

Ranma: "Well, when a guy fights a girl... He lets up a lot."

Akane: "Don't underestimate me. Try me for real sometime."

Ranma: "No way. Violent or not... You're still a girl. I couldn't do it."

If I remember correctly, during the story with Pink and Link, Ranma said that it didn't feel right to fight back against girls. I believe he also says one or two other things that suggest the same kind of thinking in that story.


I always interpreted Ranma's response here to mean he wouldn't be able to take Akane completely seriously in a fight and he's openly admitting he'd hold back against her, not that he wouldn't fight her period. There is a bit of a difference between the two. Regardless Ranma's actions pretty much speak for themselves, he fights girls quite a few times without any complaint when they are a serious opponent.

It isn't exactly surprising Ranma would be uncomfortable fighting girls, it is fairly common. Regardless he's definitely less chauvinistic and isn't nearly as biased against girls as many fanon works interpret him to be (not that I think you were implying it).

Pink and Link are probably given a bit more leeway as well because they are little kids as well, not just because they are girls.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:58 am

It isn't just holding back, but avoiding fights with girls entirely. And if he can't, he tries to win without hitting them, if at all possible. We see this demonstrated many times in the series. When he ends up taking Akane's place in the fight against Kodachi, for example, he says that beating up girls isn't his style, and openly reveals his intention to throw her out of the ring before she gets hurt. We know he's a better fighter than Shampoo, but he chooses to run away when she's trying to kill him. (Yes, he kicks her when they fight on the log, but that was ultimately to knock her off of it, since there wasn't an indirect means of doing so, as with Kodachi.) An important element of Ranma's fight with Akane, when she wore that special armor, was to defeat her without actually hitting her, even despite how skilled and powerful she was at the time. Again and again, he's attacked by girls and refrains from striking back, and aside from his first confrontation with Shampoo, I can't think of a single example where he willfully tried to strike a girl, so long as he was under the impression that that's what they were, or the circumstances didn't really give him much choice (his fights with Rouge and Kima, for example, though it was only once with Rouge, in a fashion that is quite understandable, and I think the only actual harm he caused to Kima was indirect).

As for considering girls weak: I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks they're weaker than guys at the very least, though, because he often considers his own female body to be inadequate and tries to deal with things as a man if he can.

As for Pink and Link being little kids: you're thinking of Ling-Ling and Lung-Lung, from the anime; Pink and Link are around Ranma's age, if not a bit older.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Spica75 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:49 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:
Anyway, if you disagree with me, we should probably just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I can't see myself seeing it your way (unless I'm wrong on what your way is, in which case I'd be happy to get clarification/be corrected on that), and I'd rather save us both the time and effort arguing over something that won't change anything.


You are certainly misinterpreting me, but i suck at explaining so, oh well, not a surprise.

Ok, lets try saying it like this, Ranma is very often the CAUSE of their fighting, but it´s not nearly as often his FAULT.
Understand the difference?

Then there's the double standard where it's excusable for Akane to initiate or react to things because of a personal problem, but it's not excusable for Ranma if his own personal problem is involved.


Never said that.

There´s also a huge difference between what you call "personal problems". Ranma´s worst problem is arrogance, and that´s something internal to himself. He could simply decide to tone himself down.
While Akane´s worst problem is being hounded by would be rapists. SHE cannot change this in any way, it is FORCED UPON HER.

Understand the difference?

Now, rather than it being a matter of who starts it or why


That the WHY matters is exactly one of the things i´ve been trying to get through...


Basics:
If Akane calls Ranma a pervert for whatever it was this time(real or not), is that a trigger for a fight? Or was the trigger whatever she reacted to?
If Ranma at that point just says no i´m not and leaves or ignores her(which ought to be default option, especially if the cause was irrelevant to him), there´s no fight, just a somewhat grouchy or annoyed Akane.
Ranma instead choosing(or by default(as i´ve said before which makes it an odd to claim that i just try to blame him for it, heck i blame Genma first of all if anyone!)) to retaliate with something outright and specifically nasty, that´s where the fight usually starts.
(also not to be forgotten is the difference between a generic insult and a direct personal attack, Akane defaults to the former, Ranma unfortunately to the latter, and while the former is something most people just shrug at, the latter is most certainly not)

Akane is a drastically worse fighter with words than with fists, and Ranma exploits that. He treats her as an opponent except refuses to take her seriously.

It´s largely, maybe even mostly, not his fault, but that doesn´t make Ranma less of an arrogant asshole.

Fair odds I would probably clobber him within minutes if i ever met him. And i wouldn´t even have to stand for his condescension towards girls. Despite him often BEING one himself.
I think you don´t realise just how extremely offensive that is.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Spica75 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:12 pm

As for considering girls weak: I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks they're weaker than guys at the very least, though, because he often considers his own female body to be inadequate and tries to deal with things as a man if he can.


I may mix up things, but isn´t there somewhere in the early episodes where he outright says something like that?


#####

They just aren't a good match, the relationship just doesn't work out. Neither is ready for a relationship in the first place, and it doesn't help that if they show any hints of getting along the fathers are ready them to the alter. Granted, that latter point is more the anime than the manga. However, the fathers do seem to pop up and spoil any moments when they might grow closer trying to push them even faster.


Yeah, that about sums it up. Left alone without outside pressure i think they might have decent chances to "grow up" and get along if not well then at least ok.


#####

My opinion from both the manga and TV show is that Akane is usually more at fault than Ranma for the problems in their relationship.


WHAT relationship? Akane is FORCED into it, just like Kuno forces the hentai horde on her(ring a bell?).
Ranma takes it as a matter of honor and effectively accepts it, making it so that he ALSO forces that relationship on her.

The irony there though is Ranma is pretty much in the same situation, he didn't know about the engagement any earlier than the Tendo sister did and he has multiple girls after him.


Ah yes, and how exactly does he react to those other girls chasing him? How do you think he would react if Genma suddenly told him that he has to submit to Schampoo, marry her and get dragged off to her village and stay there, and no getting uppity any more. (exaggerated, but less than you think)

No, Ranma is most definitely NOT in the same situation. Similar yes, same, not even close.

On not taking Akane seriously in a fight early on or when she asked him to take her seriously in training, Ranma is just in a way different league plain and simple. Actually fighting her seriously would end up with Akane seriously injured.


That´s just pure rubbish. I´ve trained and sparred with lots of people in a "different league" from myself, both above and below. The better one adjust slightly and it´s generally fine.
That is a world apart from just toying with someone. Toying with someone is just being nasty.
It´s blatant disrespect.

He does say boys will instinctively hold back


Only an idiot would. The floor does not become softer just because it´s a girl that throws on it.

but this is more being honest than meaning it as a slight.


You´ve never trained martial arts anywhere that included girls have you? If you had you would know that gender is irrelevant more often than not. It´s a little bit harder for girls to gain strength than for males, and average height is a bit more, that´s the only real advantage/difference there is.
Individual differences are far greater than between genders.

I don't know if I'd be comfortable trusting a guy that sleeps with Akane in pig form either.


And you do realise that Ranma is effectively betraying Akane by not telling...

and makes pretty baseless accusations about him being a pervert


Baseless? Mostly not. Inaccurate, mostly yes.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:34 pm

Spica75 wrote:Fair odds I would probably clobber him within minutes if i ever met him.

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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:58 pm

Spica75 wrote:You are certainly misinterpreting me, but i suck at explaining so, oh well, not a surprise.

Ok, lets try saying it like this, Ranma is very often the CAUSE of their fighting, but it´s not nearly as often his FAULT.
Understand the difference?

Sure, when it's put that clearly, but that's pretty far from the impression that I'd gotten from what you said before, so you can't really blame me for the misinterpretation you caused.

See what I did there? :P

Joking aside, I can't say that I much care for the use of "often" here; that's certainly vague enough to be open to broad interpretation. One can readily assume that the scales tilt in Ranma's disfavor, as if there's a "majority" hiding behind "often." Personally, as I mentioned before, and just to put my stance on the matter out there again, I don't think that either are more at fault or cause: not only because of how often they both have a go at each other in some way, but because of the multitude of complications from both of their backgrounds and circumstances. I won't accept any claim that either are worse than the other until someone takes a count of all of their actions and weighs the details that would determine the level of their wrongdoing.

Never said that.

There´s also a huge difference between what you call "personal problems". Ranma´s worst problem is arrogance, and that´s something internal to himself. He could simply decide to tone himself down.
While Akane´s worst problem is being hounded by would be rapists. SHE cannot change this in any way, it is FORCED UPON HER.

Understand the difference?

I'm not sure of how relevant some of that is, but a lot of what you said is inaccurate, and in several ways.

To address one of the inaccuracies, and probably the most blatant one: would-be rapists? Really? Hyperbole is something that we can do without. As well as the logical fallacy, where forcing a challenge, which would see the victor winning a date, means that the date will inevitably include the victor forcing himself upon Akane sexually. It's not only ridiculous, but I don't recall any indication that Akane expected things to happen that way. She's just annoyed and puts up with the situation, which I doubt would be the case if her fears matched the scenario that you're presenting.

Actually being hounded by guys is an external issue, not internal. While the behavior that arose from it is internal, there's still a problem with that: not only does that "morning ritual" stop, she's not particularly traumatized by it. She's marked by it, no question, but not affected nearly as much as you're suggesting (especially with that "would-be rapists" line). Don't believe me? Just look at her dealings with Ryoga; one could say that she's too comfortable in his company, sometimes. So, no, whatever prejudice she has against boys doesn't excuse her actions, particularly since it mostly seems to be Ranma where her prejudices lie, both in ways understandable and inexplicable.

Another issue with your reasoning is that Ranma's arrogance and Akane's feelings toward boys are coming into being in different ways, but they're not: they're both engendered by outside influences. Ranma didn't just up and decide to be arrogant one day because that's the kind of person he is, and can change how he is because he was in control of that portion of his personality from the get-go. In both cases, it's within their power to change their ways; Akane, in particular, we can not assume is helplessly stuck feeling and believing the way that she does about boys and/or Ranma. Really, if anyone is to have a better case about not being able to help how they turned out, between these two, that would be Ranma: he was strongly and pervasively influenced by a single person (his father) since he was a toddler, to shape him in specific ways, so his overall experience was a natural development beyond his control, whereas Akane had many more influences and choices to decide the state of her mind. Compared to the decade-plus worth of experiences that had a hand in Ranma's arrogance, Akane's comparatively-fleeting experience with some of the boys at her high school, at a time in her development where her personality was far from lacking a foundation, is as nothing.

Beyond that, I'd argue what their worst problems are. If you think Ranma's is arrogance, I actually think you're aiming too low, but more due to comparing his with Akane's, since she's just as arrogant. At least we can understand where Ranma is coming from when it comes to martial arts ability and experience, because he had an extensive, specialized training trip, that -- I imagine -- a rare few undertake, and he certainly has the strength and skills to show for it. At one point (during the story where Akane acquires that armor that supposedly draws out one's abilities), Akane actually had the gall to say that Ranma wasn't a true martial artist, just because she was chosen by an armor (whose choice was based on her physical charms, by the bye) that granted her abilities that she hadn't possessed before (and, thus, hadn't earned). Considering how many times and people that she's been shown up by, one could even argue that she's delusional, which is a problem that I think would overshadow Ranma's arrogance. Especially since it's also possible to argue that she's delusional in other ways as well. Considering that and other aspects of her personality, she's rather unreasonable and unfair to deal with.

On that note, I'll refer to the "sticks and stones" issue. While they both habitually press each other's buttons, to the point where it's pretty much a normal affair for them and doesn't negatively impact their relationship (when that's all they're doing, and it's not ignited by another issue), Akane can easily be the worse in an exchange because of how often she resorts to violence, which takes advantage of the fact that Ranma can't contend with her in that arena -- and she should, barring her delusions don't encroach upon this aspect of their relationship, have enough experience with Ranma to know that that's exactly what she's doing.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:42 pm

toushin wrote:The bitter end syndrome is what I call when authors depict the problems in Akane’s and Ranma’s relationship as entirely his fault.


Because it is.

Ranma:

- Often insults and berates Akane, quite often for little to no reason.
- Lets other women pursue him despite being engaged to her (and yes, he lets them)
- Has lied to her and manipulated her feelings to try and get things out of her.

Meanwhile, Akane's sins in the relationship involve getting mad sometimes when provoked. What a harpy! In all honesty it says a lot about how forgiving Akane is/how much she must love Ranma that she didn't dump the jackass long ago.

Fanfic authors portray Akane as acting nicer to Ranma if he's nicer to her because this is canonical fact. It's something that, you know, actually happens if you actually bother to read Ranma 1/2 by Rumiko Takahashi.

toushin wrote:My question why are there so many of these fics. the reason I call it Bitter End syndrome is that fic basically deconstructed this idea.


Actually "The Bitter End Syndrome" would be a much better descriptor for the type of out of character fanon stupidity that garbage story produced. A story which isn't actually a Ranma 1/2 fanfic, because not a single character within is actually anything like the characters from the comic Ranma 1/2. It's some original fiction that has characters that share the names of some cartoon characters.

I mean, as mentioned The Bitter End doesn't portray any of the three principal actors of the story in any way like the characters they stole their names from are. Ranma magically doesn't have a spine, stoically taking abuse which, he, you know, has never done ever. Akane's some kind of violent psychopath, exaggerating her violence even beyond even the slapstick canon. Except, you know, The Bitter End isn't slapstick so the entire thing comes across as stupid. It's like if you had Daffy Duck's head shot off in a shower of gore after shouting "Duck Season Fire!" I don't know if you realize this, but Akane actually doesn't have a hair trigger temper. She'll get mad, yes, but only after a lot of provocation and needling by Ranma, or something particularly bad just happened.

"The Bitter End" helped inspire insipid, stupid fanon that even now I see in this very thread, which finally drove me to make an account to rebutt such stupidity. I mean, really. We have people thinking slapstick violence in a comic that contains a lot of slapstick comedy is somehow an awful indictment of Akane. Of course, it's only Akane. This stupidity never spreads to the other members of the cast, for example, Ranma. Who will quite often inflict violence on people for no reason whatsover (In contrast to Akane, who is always provoked).

So yeah, if you've notice that portrayal, it's because fanfic writers are actually, you know, writing accurate and proper characterization in a Ranma 1/2 fanfic.

I know that is shocking and strange, as Ranma 1/2 fanfiction has so much out of character garbage and fanon, but I suggest you read the manga a bit. Read the silly Martial Arts Slapstick Romantic Comedy sitcom.

I am angry about Ranma 1/2 fanfiction.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:28 pm

Pata Hikari wrote:I am angry about Ranma 1/2 fanfiction.

I noticed. But then -- we've already had this argument.

Ranma is also engaged to Ukyou; and one-sided though it may be, the Amazons think he's married to Shampoo. He ducks whenever Kodachi comes around, if he has a chance to. The other girls that occasionally show up, well, he's kinda engaged to them, too, or at least Genma made them think so. Two pickles, some rice, and a fish, remember? Akane is his fiancee, but not his only fiancee.

Think of fanfiction as Commedia del Arte, using the cast of Ranma 1/2 as characters. Sometimes Il Capitano is the good guy; sometimes he's not. Pretty much the same for everybody else. Commedia tells stories all over the place; they're similar, but not the same.

Different things bother different people. I've gotten complaints about the shortness of my chapters in A Different Door, A Different Redhead. I can write longer chapters, but I'm experimenting. I like omake. Why not try writing a story using omake, and forget the chapters? With more practice, I may be able to get down to drabble length, as Arpad Hrunta does so well in his Harry Potter Drabble Pit. But it'll hardly be canon. Washuu took Voldemort out before Harry even got his letter.

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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby slickrcbd » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:29 pm

Pata Hikari wrote:Because it is.

Ranma:

- Often insults and berates Akane, quite often for little to no reason.
- Lets other women pursue him despite being engaged to her (and yes, he lets them)
- Has lied to her and manipulated her feelings to try and get things out of her.

Meanwhile, Akane's sins in the relationship involve getting mad sometimes when provoked. What a harpy! In all honesty it says a lot about how forgiving Akane is/how much she must love Ranma that she didn't dump the jackass long ago.

The first one has him usually only responding in kind to Akane's baseless accusations or insults.

The second one is a bit more complicated than that. Ukyo has at least as strong a claim as Akane, if not stronger since her dowry has already been paid. Shampoo considers herself Ranma's wife and is so according to their laws, as every Amazon in the show has attested. Honestly, when Mousse challenged Ranma, he should have swallowed his pride and threw the fight, although it's questionable if that would have worked with Cologne.
Kodachi is just as delusional as her brother. Ranma no more lets Kodashi pursue him than Akane lets Tatewaki pursue her.
Ranma feels honor bound to all except Kodachi, which is part of why he drags his feet. The "harem solution" is really the only honorable one.
Blame Genma for that, not Ranma.

As for lying and manipulating, Akane is just as guilty.

Meanwhile, we have Akane getting mad at Ranma for actions of the other girls that are equally honor-bound to pursue him. Ranma doesn't encourage them, yet he gets the blame for their actions.
She will also consistently jump to the worst possible conclusions.

Also Akane is NOT given a choice about dumping Ranma. She stays with him most of the time because she has no choice. The closest thing she had to a choice was in IIRC Vol 17 (don't quote me on this, I"m just recalling the fic "A New 17" that was an AU of when the engagement was switched to Nabiki).
If she had a choice she never would have started the relationship, but her sisters dumped the responsibility on her rather than letting Ranma date each of them and make a choice like Soun initially offered.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:16 pm

slickrcbd wrote:The first one has him usually only responding in kind to Akane's baseless accusations or insults.


False. Ranma is the instigator in the arguments the vast majority of the time. You see, Ranma's kind of a jerk. He likes fighting, so he starts fights. This includes fights with Akane.

slickrcbd wrote:The second one is a bit more complicated than that. Ukyo has at least as strong a claim as Akane, if not stronger since her dowry has already been paid.


Nope. First off, there's the simple fact that the entire thing was simply Genma scamming the Kuoji's out of greed. Next, there's the fact that, the cart wasn't that important in the first place. If the cart being stolen was so important, Ukyo would be shoving it in Ranma's face constantly.

slickrcbd wrote:Shampoo considers herself Ranma's wife and is so according to their laws, as every Amazon in the show has attested.


Wrong again.

The wording is "Shall marry" not "Is married." And again in the Phoenix Pill arc, the terms set were that he'd get he pill if he agreed to marry Shampoo. The idea that Shampoo conciders herself married to Ranma is another bit of inaccurate fanon.

slickrcbd wrote:Honestly, when Mousse challenged Ranma, he should have swallowed his pride and threw the fight, although it's questionable if that would have worked with Cologne.


Yes, and also the Reversal Jewel arc. If Ranma was truly bothered by it, he'd make efforts to stop it. But nope, having other girls pursue him, even though he's not in love with them, makes him feel like a big manly man. So he lets them continue to do so. (You'll notice that, while Ranma's fine with Ukyo "casually" pursuing him, when she moved into his house he hated it so he began working to get her to leave) So yes, I'm glad you agree with me that the other girls perusing him is entirely his fault.

slickrcbd wrote:
As for lying and manipulating, Akane is just as guilty.


False. Akane's practically the only character who doesn't try to manipulate people, actually.

slickrcbd wrote:Ranma feels honor bound to all except Kodachi, which is part of why he drags his feet. The "harem solution" is really the only honorable one.


I'm going to blow your mind here by revealing a little fact about Ranma that's contrary to a lot of fanon.

Ranma doesn't actually care about honor much.

He has shown to have no problem using all sorts of dirty tricks and lies to get what he wants. He's actually a lot like Genma, really. He's better then his father in that he'll usually take responsibility for his actions when called out on it, at least. But he's not a particularly honorable person.

slickrcbd wrote:
Meanwhile, we have Akane getting mad at Ranma for actions of the other girls


Yes, because, again, Ranma likes having them pursue him. She has every right to get mad at her fiance for not telling other women he's not interested in them. Even then, she doens't always immediately jump to anger. Take, for instance, the Valentines Day story. Ranma's swarmed by all the girls giving him chocolate, Akane's response? a sarcastic quip and off to class she goes.

slickrcbd wrote:Also Akane is NOT given a choice about dumping Ranma. She stays with him most of the time because she has no choice. The closest thing she had to a choice was in IIRC Vol 17 (don't quote me on this, I"m just recalling the fic "A New 17" that was an AU of when the engagement was switched to Nabiki).


False, again. She could pass the engagement on to one of her other sisters (and did for a bit). Or she could tell Shampoo and Ukyo he's all theirs. The fact that you say Akane has no choice when bringing up the very arc that shows she has one is absurd. Do you actually pay attention to what you type?

Also, she stays with Ranma because she's in love with him.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:45 pm

Pata Hikari wrote:I know that is shocking and strange, as Ranma 1/2 fanfiction has so much out of character garbage and fanon, but I suggest you read the manga a bit. Read the silly Martial Arts Slapstick Romantic Comedy sitcom.

Considering how seriously you're taking this, I suppose this is a case of hypocrisy.

As well as generally being incorrect on most other matters, but I really don't feel like arguing point by point on yet another front right now, particularly since I doubt we'd ever see eye to eye whether we did or not. I'm already pretty sure that you've gotten the wrong impression about what I've been saying in this topic, not even taking into account the opinions that differ between us, so I'd rather clear that up if that turns out to be the case.

Of course, if you think I'm trying to avoid arguing with you, for whatever reason, I'll be willing to address one thing at a time if you're up for that. (Hooray for time management or something.) I have no issues agreeing or disagreeing with you, whatever the case may be.
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Re: The Bitter End Syndrome

Postby Spica75 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:30 am

To address one of the inaccuracies, and probably the most blatant one: would-be rapists? Really? Hyperbole is something that we can do without. As well as the logical fallacy, where forcing a challenge, which would see the victor winning a date, means that the date will inevitably include the victor forcing himself upon Akane sexually. It's not only ridiculous, but I don't recall any indication that Akane expected things to happen that way. She's just annoyed and puts up with the situation, which I doubt would be the case if her fears matched the scenario that you're presenting.


Not hyperbole if you look at it from Akane´s point of view. And since it´s she that is the target, her point of view is really the only relevant.

she's not particularly traumatized by it


Really...

Sorry, but you get a fail in psychology here.

Don't believe me? Just look at her dealings with Ryoga; one could say that she's too comfortable in his company, sometimes. So, no, whatever prejudice she has against boys doesn't excuse her actions, particularly since it mostly seems to be Ranma where her prejudices lie, both in ways understandable and inexplicable.


Yes, because someone appearing to be the direct opposite to the usual "boys" getting a different reaction is such a surprise? Note emphasis on "appearing to be"(as far as Akane sees).

Another issue with your reasoning is that Ranma's arrogance and Akane's feelings toward boys are coming into being in different ways, but they're not: they're both engendered by outside influences. Ranma didn't just up and decide to be arrogant one day because that's the kind of person he is, and can change how he is because he was in control of that portion of his personality from the get-go. In both cases, it's within their power to change their ways; Akane, in particular, we can not assume is helplessly stuck feeling and believing the way that she does about boys and/or Ranma. Really, if anyone is to have a better case about not being able to help how they turned out, between these two, that would be Ranma: he was strongly and pervasively influenced by a single person (his father) since he was a toddler, to shape him in specific ways, so his overall experience was a natural development beyond his control, whereas Akane had many more influences and choices to decide the state of her mind. Compared to the decade-plus worth of experiences that had a hand in Ranma's arrogance, Akane's comparatively-fleeting experience with some of the boys at her high school, at a time in her development where her personality was far from lacking a foundation, is as nothing.


Seriously? :roll:

Do you realise you´re basically saying that Ranma gets a free pass because he´s mentally ill?
How a person acts is a CHOICE. Getting attacked and harassed by people is a choice by those attacking.
Claiming that Ranma is unable to control how he acts, yes that strongly infers he is mentally ill.

Beyond that, I'd argue what their worst problems are. If you think Ranma's is arrogance, I actually think you're aiming too low, but more due to comparing his with Akane's, since she's just as arrogant. At least we can understand where Ranma is coming from when it comes to martial arts ability and experience, because he had an extensive, specialized training trip, that -- I imagine -- a rare few undertake, and he certainly has the strength and skills to show for it. At one point (during the story where Akane acquires that armor that supposedly draws out one's abilities), Akane actually had the gall to say that Ranma wasn't a true martial artist, just because she was chosen by an armor (whose choice was based on her physical charms, by the bye) that granted her abilities that she hadn't possessed before (and, thus, hadn't earned). Considering how many times and people that she's been shown up by, one could even argue that she's delusional, which is a problem that I think would overshadow Ranma's arrogance. Especially since it's also possible to argue that she's delusional in other ways as well. Considering that and other aspects of her personality, she's rather unreasonable and unfair to deal with.


Now you´re being ridiculously unfair. Akane has basically spent her whole life with martial arts as a primary part of it, and has been a top dog in the area all the time, all her life, she has been given no reason to think she isn´t.

And you really fail psychology here. Akane is insecure not arrogant, being "perfect"(perfect at school, perfect martial artist, perfect girl...) is her way of dealing with it. And then Ranma and the loonies arrive and suddenly she´s not even close to the top, while Kuno has ruined it at school, and then Ranma the BOY claims to be a better girl.

I don't think that either are more at fault or cause


At cause yes, at fault no.

I won't accept any claim that either are worse than the other until someone takes a count of all of their actions and weighs the details that would determine the level of their wrongdoing.


:|

Ugh, that would take waaaayy too much time.
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