Would you say that Nabiki...

Discuss the Ranma series in this forum.

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:05 pm

The one time I recall Akane using a ladder, it was to get onto the dojo roof (where Ranma had landed after being hit through the roof by Happosai), and I think it's higher than the one-story I'm proposing. Of course, that's not to say that she couldn't have used a ladder out of propriety. She might just reserve less normal means for when time is of the essence. You have to remember that she emulated Kasumi for a while, since that's what seemed to attract Tofu, and she's made it clear that she wants to be perceived as feminine regardless. (I think I remember Akane climbing onto a roof in one of the anime episodes. The Christmas one, perhaps?)

You cannot really count Akane's abilities under a external influence or power up.


That's why I said I was probably looking into it too much, but I still think that the observation presents a possibility, not impossibility.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Cheb » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:47 am

Akane (under normal power) is shown using ladders.

I recall her being at half the minimum requirements for roof hopping (manga).
She can jump some 3 meters up. She does this on a semi-regular basis.
She can get to the roof in 2 leaps if there's a convenient half-way ledge. Like she jumped up to the gym balcony, by rebounding off a high stack of mats.
Maybe, just maybe, all that holds her from roof-hopping is a lack of self-confidence.

es, but not to the point where it´s made clear what kind of level of proficiency or strength she actually is(if any). (compared to Ranma/Akane etc i mean)

From the overall observations, I think that Nabiki is an one-trick pony.
She is very good at running away. And what she is ever seen to train is her running ability.
Proud owner of 1.5 kilograms of Germanium transistors
Cheb
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1394
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:26 am

Three meters is within a first story range height. Well, story heights can vary, but I believe it's within an acceptable range.

The mats were a stack of vaulting boxes, actually. Between subtracting their height (about a head shorter than one of the nearby highschool boys, so likely under five feet) and the addition of the balcony on the second floor (which I estimate nulls between three-fifths and three-fourths of the vaulting boxes' height), I think that's close enough to achieve a story-high jump. She's probably only shaving off about a foot of height from the jump by using the vaulting box to reach the second floor.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Spica75 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:59 am

LawOhki wrote:Probably comes from volume 17 where the engagement goes to Nabiki and this happens.
start and then important bit

At the very least Nabiki is physically unable to safely land a drop from the second floor.


Hmmm... Thanks, now the only trouble is how much that doesn´t go along with the parts that points the other direction... *scratches head*


#####

PCHeintz72 wrote:Nabiki is certainly not shown to be as skilled or as strong or as far along in her training as Akane.. but she manages to survive in Nerima, despite all the antics, the plots, and the obvious money making schemes throughout the story. We see her exercising, and it is obvious she keeps in shape... She is shown easily keeping ahead of Ranma on a bike. I *cannot* take her as normal and untrained... merely not trained to the superhuman standards we see so often in others in the series.

However... that does *not* mean I can simply see a canon Nabiki able to just instantly start duplicating Ranma's techniques, or those of the others. Certainly a story can be made with her learning them... I've read several good ones over the years. but her able to just pull it off would not be to me overly believable.


Agreed, and yes there needs to be some reason to make it not seem like author fiat. (or MORE author fiat...) :P


PCHeintz72 wrote:Akane (under normal power) is shown using ladders. Pretty sure Kuno the same (I know he cannot in anime continuity, cannot recall offhand if he can or cannot in manga continuity). Kodachi, Shampoo, and Ukyo are never shown having that issue, Ranma and his father do not have that issue, Cologne does not have that issue, nor Ryoga or Mousse. I think I recall one time she actually climbed up (not jump or use a ladder)... in a confrontation with the other fiancées, whom were already up there. The only other one whom I am uncertain on is Soun...


This however reminds me of something, the fact that all these people are trained in DIFFERENT styles of martial arts. The Saotome style is specifically mentioned somewhere as being focused on aerial movements, the same is not true for Tendo style.

Most people tend to rate Ukyo fairly low, but as you say she still has no problem taking to the roofs, and for example her unarmed vs Akane i would probably bet on the latter... So, just looking at individual feats or skills does not an overall skill estimation make.


#####

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Or, maybe it's because she can take that kind of fall? Dun-dun-dunnnn!


That´s not entirely impossible, Akane may simply be a bit overly protective (and arrogant) towards Nabiki.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Why didn't anyone who saw Ranma learning the kachu tenshin amaguriken not take it upon themselves to copy what they observed? A lot of people saw it, including those you might expect would like to improve themselves as a martial artist (for whatever reason that might be). How come only Ryoga learned the bakusai tenketsu, even though it also seems like a useful technique? Even more so, why didn't anyone else ever learn the hiryu shoten ha? Not only did a lot of people get involved and learn how it worked, but it was supposedly the kind of technique that you don't go spreading around all willy-nilly.


Because they CANNOT be easily copied, just like that.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Mmmm... Fishstick kitties.


:lol:

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:I'm not sure if that answered whether you agree that there's a great enough difference between Nabiki and Ranma or not. I believe this is still positing whether Nabiki should have evaded Ranma in the hedge maze if she didn't have sufficient enough abilities to do so against the upper part of the top 1%.


She has SOME ability at least for certain, and she sure is more sneaky than Ranma. And being able to think in the middle of action can help a lot.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Kasumi manages to survive, too, despite seeming even less capable of taking care of herself than Nabiki. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has anything to do with their physical capabilities. It could just as well be a matter of luck and/or intelligence.


Kasumi gets underestimated a lot because she´s softspoken and "beside the action" all the time. But thing is, how does she always manage to stay on the sideline so well? Just that alone is a decent hint that she simply cannot be guileless and "weak".


#####

Cheb wrote:From the overall observations, I think that Nabiki is an one-trick pony.
She is very good at running away. And what she is ever seen to train is her running ability.


Maybe... She´s also seen weightlifting as Ellen reminded me of, and IIRC it´s not small weights she´s using. And she´s doing it very casually, as if the weight is barely noticeable. That´s a pretty "heavy" argument...
Spica75
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1975
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:04 pm

Spica75 wrote:Because they CANNOT be easily copied, just like that.

So, you assume that every single person would be discouraged by varying degrees of effort? Especially Ranma, who we know is willing to go to great lengths to accomplish his goals? And considering some of the effort that other characters have put into their training, and/or the reasons they would have to improve themselves further, he's not the only one who would find the effort worth the benefit.

:lol:

Did someone get my reference!? :shock:

She has SOME ability at least for certain, and she sure is more sneaky than Ranma. And being able to think in the middle of action can help a lot.

Sneaky intellectually, for sure. Despite being in the hedge maze, I doubt she would be able to use that as an advantage. Well, unless Ranma is supremely stupid... Which is possible. <_<;

Kasumi gets underestimated a lot because she´s softspoken and "beside the action" all the time. But thing is, how does she always manage to stay on the sideline so well? Just that alone is a decent hint that she simply cannot be guileless and "weak".

So, when she so effortlessly gave Akane that barbell, which she had somehow hidden in her nightgown since going to bed, it wasn't just a gag? And she must have an arsenal, either tucked away or on her person, considering how she also had an Akane-grade (TM!?) mallet to give said sister while she was on her way out the door that one time. :P
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:30 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:So, when [Kasumi] so effortlessly gave Akane that barbell, which she had somehow hidden in her nightgown since going to bed, it wasn't just a gag? And she must have an arsenal, either tucked away or on her person, considering how she also had an Akane-grade (TM!?) mallet to give said sister while she was on her way out the door that one time. :P

That's the way I play games like Risk or Dungeon: I try to be pleasant, funny, inoffensive, and dangerous. It leads, often as not, to a relatively peaceful victory -- nobody especially wants to kill me. They enjoy my contribution to the game. Besides, that fella over there is weaker.

Really, Kasumi doesn't do enemies.
Visit Big Washuu's Lab of Arcane Knowledge at http://washuu.net
Ellen Kuhfeld
User avatar
Sailor Starlight
Posts: 1783
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:37 pm

I don't take her for a seductress, either. XD
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby PCHeintz72 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:10 pm

Most people tend to rate Ukyo fairly low, but as you say she still has no problem taking to the roofs, and for example her unarmed vs Akane i would probably bet on the latter... So, just looking at individual feats or skills does not an overall skill estimation make.

Never meant to imply a single skill was a benchmark, I merely used it as an example
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2681
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Spica75 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:26 pm

PCHeintz72 wrote:Never meant to imply a single skill was a benchmark, I merely used it as an example


No no, i just wanted to highlight that they do have some major differences in styles, which means they have differences in what they have trained and know.



Crescent Pulsar S wrote:So, you assume that every single person would be discouraged by varying degrees of effort?


More like the vast majority of people don´t have the prerequisite training/skill/ability to learn a lot of those "special moves".

That is after all the reason real world martial arts tend towards rank systems where you just do not progress until you manage certain things, as you will need those skills to be able to learn what comes next.

Did someone get my reference!?


Possibly, but might have got another instead.

Well, unless Ranma is supremely stupid... Which is possible. <_<;


In SOME ways, i think that´s pretty much already proven beyond any shadow of doubt.

So, when she so effortlessly gave Akane that barbell, which she had somehow hidden in her nightgown since going to bed, it wasn't just a gag? And she must have an arsenal, either tucked away or on her person, considering how she also had an Akane-grade (TM!?) mallet to give said sister while she was on her way out the door that one time.


Hehe, might be going too far. BUT, otoh, it would not surprise me even the slightest.
Spica75
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1975
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:41 pm

Spica75 wrote:More like the vast majority of people don´t have the prerequisite training/skill/ability to learn a lot of those "special moves".

That is after all the reason real world martial arts tend towards rank systems where you just do not progress until you manage certain things, as you will need those skills to be able to learn what comes next.

I'll have to disagree with the prerequisites excuse, for the most part. While some of the characters who know about the techniques, how they work and how one is trained to learn them aren't ready for sticking their hands in fire or getting hit with boulders much larger than themselves, what's truly stopping them from working up to that level? The hiryu shoten ha -- aside from the shishi hokodan/moko takabisha -- has a much easier entry level, and even more characters know about it. All of its parts can be practiced from the start until mastery, and their difficulty ultimately depends on the person. Heck, Nabiki might be able to do it as is, perhaps with some practice. She's often displayed an ability to stay cool in various situations, and seems to have a mind that could handle leading an opponent around while making sure that she's doing it in a spiral pattern. The only challenge for her is being able to outpace her opponent, or being able to take/block their attacks in the process, but that kind of challenge isn't a sure thing.

Anyway, arguing about that is making us drift away from the actual topic. You can try to apply internal coherency to, say, the lack of repercussions (both financial and legal) for property damage and the like, but sometimes you're better off without the notion that a reason simply must exist. Something like fan-fiction would be a proper context for attempting to apply some kind of logic to something that defies it, rather than doing it in any serious capacity. For instance: saying that the "Nerima Wrecking Crew" gets away with all of the property damage because they're an actual business and they're often contracted to make it look like incidental damage, since that kind of look just happens to be trending at the time. That could be an amusing thought, maybe, but I hardly think it's appropriate for anything serious.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Spica75 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:06 am

I'll have to disagree with the prerequisites excuse, for the most part. While some of the characters who know about the techniques, how they work and how one is trained to learn them aren't ready for sticking their hands in fire or getting hit with boulders much larger than themselves, what's truly stopping them from working up to that level?


Knowing how to do it? And being able to perform the training for it? Not to mention knowing how to train something?

For example, i know how to do a number of martial arts moves, that i however unfortunately do not know how to train for, so even though i technically know how to do them, i can´t actually do them for real. And then there´s some that i know how to train for, but i am simply not capable of perfoming said training.

Those are some seriously big hurdles to get past, and the less information you have, and the less ability you have, the less likely you are to be able to work it out.

The hiryu shoten ha -- aside from the shishi hokodan/moko takabisha -- has a much easier entry level, and even more characters know about it. All of its parts can be practiced from the start until mastery, and their difficulty ultimately depends on the person.


Except it involves some VERY advanced ki-manipulation. Not to mention being good enough defensively to be able to do the spiral thing.

And seriously, do you have any idea just how difficult it is just to lead someone around in a fight?
Spica75
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1975
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:57 pm

Spica75 wrote:Knowing how to do it? And being able to perform the training for it? Not to mention knowing how to train something?

For example, i know how to do a number of martial arts moves, that i however unfortunately do not know how to train for, so even though i technically know how to do them, i can´t actually do them for real. And then there´s some that i know how to train for, but i am simply not capable of perfoming said training.

Those are some seriously big hurdles to get past, and the less information you have, and the less ability you have, the less likely you are to be able to work it out.

Is it really that hard to figure out the techniques in question? Take the bakusai tenketsu, to start. The real purpose of the training, in a martial arts capacity, is to toughen the body. The practitioner would simply need to be able to withstand being hit by an object. Ryoga simply started with a boulder, and that's all he needed. Surely someone could hit themselves with something less massive and get a reduced effect, and work their way up until they get the effect that something like a boulder can offer. And how hard can it be to learn the kachu tenshin amaguriken? (Heck, all Ranma needed was a rather short time -- like, within a few hours -- with a tank of fish to complete his training.) It's all about increasing speed, so one merely needs a time benchmark, and not necessarily anything dangerous. For instance, if the time it took Ranma to pluck objects out of a water-filled tank were clocked, the practitioner would be able to observe their progress by comparing it to their own time.

I'm not saying that I don't understand what you're saying, and I'm sure it could apply to something, but I doubt that they apply much -- if at all -- to the training and techniques in question.

Except it involves some VERY advanced ki-manipulation. Not to mention being good enough defensively to be able to do the spiral thing.

And seriously, do you have any idea just how difficult it is just to lead someone around in a fight?

Where is the evidence that it involves very advanced ki-manipulation, much less any at all? I don't remember any part where the ki is directly manipulated. If the battle aura is made of ki, and it was needed to be suppressed, that's easily covered: being cool emotionally (soul of ice), and being defensive rather than offensive (body of ice). And how defensive one would need to be would depend on the opponent. (And, of course, the other ki-manipulation technique that we know of relies on emotions as well, and doesn't seem to involve doing anything more than willing the ki out through the hands.)

Do you have any idea of what the world would be like if it was impossible for anyone to accomplish anything just because it was difficult, as if the words "learn" or "practice" didn't exist? To think that something difficult would stop someone from changing that is a lame argument. Your logic is akin to do or die; there's no in-between or ability to transition. Even if it's difficult, the only thing stopping someone -- assuming they're not handicapped in some way -- is the will to do what's necessary to reach their goal.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby PCHeintz72 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Crescent... I have to say I just consider the premise flawed.

I am *not* stating Nabiki or anyone of her level cannot learn the techniques in question, or that she could not train herself up to be at Ranma's level eventually.

The issue is you make it sound as if just anyone off the street merely knowing of the techniques would be able to instantly be able to do them. That is simply not realistic or believable. If I actually saw that it would be a turn off.

Ranma has proven himself a near prodigy at martial arts for his age by merely surviving, let alone learning as fast as he does, but that does not make him the norm.

Were what you implying true, then Akane or even Shampoo should be able to do everything Ranma and Ryoga can, as well as he can, because they were there when he learned those techniques. Heck, Nabiki, Akane's friends, and Ranma's two male classmates probably fall into the category, since while not there while he learned them, they are there while he fights.

The simple fact is it is not really a matter of learning the techniques, it is knowing all or at least most of the basics leading to them, and of having the conditioning to survive their use.

That concept is hardly original to martial arts. If I gave a 25 year old a bike, and showed them a clip of Golden Boy during his bicycle race, that does not mean they could match that performance because they have the same bike and can ride it.

If Cologne, Ryoga, Ranma, or someone else told Nabiki step by step exactly how the bakusai tenketsu worked, sure she would know the steps... but I guarantee you if you tied her up and slammed boulders into her the results would not be rubble, but a very seriously hurt Nabiki. She may know the steps, but actually finding the spot to touch, how to channel the energy, determine the correct amount to fire off, how to toughen the body to survive it, all in the slit instant of impact, without all the prior training... No.

If some one here knew how to drift race, and described every detail of how to do so, I seriously doubt a single one of us would get it were we to go off and do it unless that person already knew how, or had extensive training in abilities leading up to it.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2681
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:21 pm

That's rather misrepresentative of what I said. You say I "sound as if," and then you took that and ran with it.

Never once did I say that anyone would be able to do something instantly, with the possible exception of the shishi hokodan/moko takabisha (and whatever else it might be named with another emotion being used), since it was suggested that anyone could do it. It's like I didn't even say anything to the effect of "starting small" or "work your way up," like I had with the bakusai tenketsu. Of course Nabiki wouldn't be able to take what Ryoga can right off. But do you think that Ryoga got tough enough to handle big boulders by withstanding big boulders in the past? Of course not. He had to start somewhere, with something. Nabiki could, too. Anyone willing probably could.

On top of that, a lot is being assumed about the techniques that aren't explicitly illustrated, like learning how to hit something's breaking point being necessary to toughen the body, or that there's anything more involved with being toughened up than sustaining hits from an appropriate object. While I'm sure that some real-life stuff is unavoidably required, especially as a basis, it's not real-life (especially if you take into consideration how often ki manipulation has come up, even though we know next to nothing about how that works), and how they get so ridiculously strong, fast and skilled simply doesn't match the results of the real world. Like I mentioned in fewer words before: Ranma couldn't steal the phoenix pill from Cologne, then, after a short time with the piranhas within the next handful of hours, he's suddenly fast enough to get it. How can you apply real world expectations to something like that?

You're also assuming that Ranma is a (near) prodigy. Since when? Even in martial arts battles he can be pretty stupid, and it's usually through sheer stubbornness or last-minute ideas that see him victorious, and/or he may have already lost a fight with his opponent before. He's also not the only character around his age that is as good or better than he is; why aren't they considered (near) prodigies? In the end, we simply don't know how others would turn out after undergoing the same training.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Would you say that Nabiki...

Postby Spica75 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:55 am

Where is the evidence that it involves very advanced ki-manipulation, much less any at all? I don't remember any part where the ki is directly manipulated.


And how common is it being able to generate cold ki? Which is what the soul of ice actually does.

(And, of course, the other ki-manipulation technique that we know of relies on emotions as well, and doesn't seem to involve doing anything more than willing the ki out through the hands.)


And obviously, ANYONE can do that?

Even if it's difficult, the only thing stopping someone -- assuming they're not handicapped in some way -- is the will to do what's necessary to reach their goal.


Really? Thing is, level of difficulty alone may not matter, because if you don´t know how to do something right you may never be able to do it even if it´s easy.

Do you have any idea of what the world would be like if it was impossible for anyone to accomplish anything just because it was difficult, as if the words "learn" or "practice" didn't exist? To think that something difficult would stop someone from changing that is a lame argument. Your logic is akin to do or die; there's no in-between or ability to transition.


I´ve spent years training martial arts, not super seriously or anything but still. Some things are simply and literally impossible if you lack the prerequisite ability or skill.
You can get lucky and circumvent issues sometimes, or you can have a skill that makes up for lacking something else, but yes for some things it really is a matter of yes/no rather than a gradual scale...

Example, if you know how to fall properly, know how to aim a fall and a shoulder roll, and know how to do a rapid shoulder roll, then running at an obstacle and then rolling under it and get back up and keep running without really slowing down during it, is not a difficult thing to learn.
But remove the prerequisites and chances are that you will hurt yourself instead if you try. And this is still something very easy if you just look at it as a basic acrobatics move.

Example 2, learning how to sense attacks, this is something that in theory anyone really can learn, just right away. However, if you look at the martial arts that tests for it, you will find that even among people that have trained for years, maybe decades, and may have trained for years just for this specific ability, those tests still have a HIGH degree of failure.
You might find a prodigy with zero training that still can do it perfectly, but it´s extremely unlikely.

Example 3, i figured out how to do kiai-jutsu all by myself. Sounds great? ( pun intended ) Not really, because i never found any proper training for it, if i ever use it, i injure myself. *bummer*


Is it really that hard to figure out the techniques in question?


Some? Hell yes.
Spica75
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1975
 

PreviousNext

Return to Specific Series: Ranma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users