Would you say that Nabiki...

[Crescent Pulsar S]

...Would be better at creating a moko takabisha than Ranma? As far as confidence goes, I mean. Ranma seems more temperamental than Nabiki, and also seems to have more insecurities as well.

Also, I'm amused by the idea of Nabiki challenging and defeating Ranma at least once with an advanced moko takabisha. XD

[LawOhki]

...Would be better at creating a moko takabisha than Ranma? As far as confidence goes, I mean. Ranma seems more temperamental than Nabiki, and also seems to have more insecurities as well.

Also, I'm amused by the idea of Nabiki challenging and defeating Ranma at least once with an advanced moko takabisha. XD

I don't think Nabiki really feels anything THAT strongly. Sure she's confident but it's just a general sense that she's got things. It's not like she's feeling the intense all consuming nothingness of Ryoga's depression for the SSH. Or what's probably a sharp spike of confidence for Ranma's MT.

Greed would probably be a better emotion to use.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Yeah, but Hinako's technique doesn't need greed. (It'd be more useful and complementary for a non-martial artist, though.)

I'll have to disagree with you to an extent. Greed can inspire ambition, yes, but greed alone can only take that ambition so far unless someone's an idiot and/or has a death wish, and I'm fairly certain that neither apply to Nabiki. It takes a lot of guts to do some of the things she's done. At the very least Nabiki's confidence would be more consistent and thus reliable. Otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that she wouldn't be able to bump up her confidence like Ranma does.

[Spica75]

...Would be better at creating a moko takabisha than Ranma? As far as confidence goes, I mean. Ranma seems more temperamental than Nabiki, and also seems to have more insecurities as well.

Also, I'm amused by the idea of Nabiki challenging and defeating Ranma at least once with an advanced moko takabisha. XD

Huh, that´s actually a very interesting question.

She does "know" that she can handle anything, so i expect that does give her one heck of a level of confidence, and Ranma does have a lot of pitfalls and insecurities that affects him, so i guess i´m saying a tentative but not generalised yes.

Ranma at his best is possibly same or similar level, but he´s not at that point much of the time.

Then of course, if you´re going to have Nabiki outdo him, you ALSO need her to be capable enough with ki-manipulation, so you need a reason for her to have become highly trained in that, probably not the easiest thing.

You could of course have her manage to copy Ranma straight off and just *ooops* do a better one mostly by chance and just because she IS so confident, unknowingly drawing on ki-skills from earlier training with Soun that she wasn´t really aware how good/high level they were, but not be able to repeat it most of the time.
Which of course might affect her confidence in intentionally repeating it and make it impossible for her to repeat it for a long time or until she gets the ki-skill training she needs.

Some interesting opportunities in the idea.

It might be possible to do the same/similar argument for Kasumi as well. Obviously not Akane, not that she needs it, she could easily use anger if she needs a ki-attack.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

There may not need to be any prior ki manipulation needed, if we consider how new it was for Ranma at his skill level. Not even his father could give him sound advice on how to project ki. It was pretty much an exercise of trial and error trying to attain the right mood and willing it to happen. The breakthrough didn't involve any real skill, but simply having the right mood. Ultimately, though, the instructions for the shishi hokodan said that anyone could do it, and since the moko takabisha is based off of it...

Also, Nabiki may be more talented than we give her credit for. If we assume she's a normal, average human being, physically speaking, and Ranma is many times as fast and strong as that, how did she escape him in the hedge maze? She has the reflexes to stop short of one of Ranma's questing hands as it suddenly shot out of a hedge, and manages to avoid the blurringly-fast attempts that followed. Then, despite having a speed advantage on foot, as well as the ability to jump high above the hedges (which can shorten travel distance, as well as make it easier to keep his quarry in sight), Nabiki manages to stay well ahead of him even though Ranma had -- and displayed -- no reason for prolonging the chase.

Instead of an Ice Queen, Nabiki might secretly be a Killer Queen. O_O

[Spica75]

There may not need to be any prior ki manipulation needed, if we consider how new it was for Ranma at his skill level. Not even his father could give him sound advice on how to project ki. It was pretty much an exercise of trial and error trying to attain the right mood and willing it to happen. The breakthrough didn't involve any real skill, but simply having the right mood. Ultimately, though, the instructions for the shishi hokodan said that anyone could do it, and since the moko takabisha is based off of it...

I think the idea that "anyone could do it" is not a good premise to use at all, if it was true, it would happen a lot more often, and many of the other talented fighters in Ranma would surely have managed as well.
I understand your argument, but i don´t like it, due to how it twists how the Ranmaverse works to a point where it becomes incoherent.

Also, Nabiki may be more talented than we give her credit for.

In every fic i´m including the Tendou sisters, i always assume that Akane is simply the one that kept on training, and that all 3 sisters have had at least enough training to be a really bad target for a mugger.
But i know many prefer to let the elder sisters be totally clueless about martial arts, for some inscrutable reason, so i cant assume others to consider Kasumi and Nabiki as at least proficient to some degree even if probably very out of practise.

Nabiki is the type that would likely keep up training the basics as a matter of self defense and a selfdiscipline and fitness regime, while i think Kasumi would make it a daily workout thing, a "morning starter" to wake up properly.

If we assume she's a normal, average human being, physically speaking

So no, i never did assume she´s an "average human being", she´s just totally not interested in being a badass martial artist. And of course, in such a family, compared to Soun and Akane, she is "average and weak", but compared to an average girl her age, she probably seems closer to superhuman.

Instead of an Ice Queen, Nabiki might secretly be a Killer Queen. O_O

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

There was an interesting application of this in Queen Rat by Sarge4. To quote the teaser, "Nabiki has always been a hustler and Ranma and Akane were often involved in her schemes. You'd think she'd get caught. She got caught." Nabiki is given eighteen months in prison, with Ranma and Akane (who were also involved) in the next cell.

Fairly early on, there's a scene where the reigning Girl Gang tries to apply 'physical persuasion' on Nabiki. Nabiki beats the tar out of them.

"But you won't always be around to protect those two friends of yours," one of the gang observes.

"Protect them? They're here to protect me."

In other words, Nabiki is a competent martial artist. She simply doesn't reach the levels Ranma and Akane do. Which makes sense. She has enough clandestine meetings that could go wrong, but she manages to survive them. It can't always be blackmail that does it. That's a lot of fanon; but she is regularly seen in canon lifting weights while reading.

Queen Rat is not for the faint of heart. Be warned: sex and violence, written rather well.

[PCHeintz72]

Nabiki is the type that would likely keep up training the basics as a matter of self defense and a selfdiscipline and fitness regime, while i think Kasumi would make it a daily workout thing, a "morning starter" to wake up properly.

We *have* seen her exercise. I'm of the general impression she *does* know enough of her family style that no non-martial artist or martial artist of non-Nerima caliber would really want to mess with her.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

I think the idea that "anyone could do it" is not a good premise to use at all, if it was true, it would happen a lot more often, and many of the other talented fighters in Ranma would surely have managed as well.
I understand your argument, but i don´t like it, due to how it twists how the Ranmaverse works to a point where it becomes incoherent.

Ranma 1/2 is supposed to be coherent? We're talking about a plot whose premise has the protagonist cursed, leave the place where he could get cured, wants to go back, could go back (he could just swim and trek like before), but it's not until the very last story arc that he has a "good enough excuse" to do so.

Anyway, that's why I saved the technique's instructions for last. However, considering how easy it was for Ranma to pick up, I'm willing to believe that it can be done by anyone. They just need the right mood, as the instructions say. The reason why not everyone is doing it is probably due to the fact that it's a "secret" technique. Of course, it was handed out like candy. How's that for coherency?

So no, i never did assume she´s an "average human being", she´s just totally not interested in being a badass martial artist. And of course, in such a family, compared to Soun and Akane, she is "average and weak", but compared to an average girl her age, she probably seems closer to superhuman.

So, even if Nabiki isn't a normal normal girl, she's still not completely outclassed by Ranma? While this doesn't prove anything about Nabiki herself, Ranma's of the opinion that she's a normal girl, no stronger than Akane, and we know how much Ranma is better than her.

[Spica75]

We *have* seen her exercise. I'm of the general impression she *does* know enough of her family style that no non-martial artist or martial artist of non-Nerima caliber would really want to mess with her.

Yes, but not to the point where it´s made clear what kind of level of proficiency or strength she actually is(if any). (compared to Ranma/Akane etc i mean)

Personally i totally agree with you, but i´m fairly sure that the general assumption puts her maybe slightly above an average girl of her age rather than an average martial artist her age.
Some even put her as a totally average girl(i never really could understand how they could do THAT).

##########

In other words, Nabiki is a competent martial artist. She simply doesn't reach the levels Ranma and Akane do. Which makes sense. She has enough clandestine meetings that could go wrong, but she manages to survive them. It can't always be blackmail that does it. That's a lot of fanon; but she is regularly seen in canon lifting weights while reading.

Yup.

##########

Ranma 1/2 is supposed to be coherent?

Internally coherent yes. Or at least not blatantly and ridiculously incoherent.

Ok, for arguments sake, if anyone can learn it why aren´t they learning? And more importantly, there´s literally a HORDE of highend martial artists involved, yet barely any of them learn ki attacks.

There needs to be a reason. Even if it´s a poor reason(because the nargles told you so) or a halfdecent like the classical "only if your training is already good enough can you learn it little grasshopper" that actually does manage a bit of internal consistency...

Anyway, i think it´s not going to look good if you DO make it available to anyone and their aunt. Letting Nabiki learn however isn´t a problem because as already said, she probably already is a mid to highend martial artist compared to "normal" people.

How's that for coherency?

Shush now! Everytime reality is brought up kills catgirls you know! Can you really hate catgirls so much that you want to kill more? You blackhearted fiend!

So, even if Nabiki isn't a normal normal girl, she's still not completely outclassed by Ranma? While this doesn't prove anything about Nabiki herself, Ranma's of the opinion that she's a normal girl, no stronger than Akane, and we know how much Ranma is better than her.

Yeah, and how normal is Ranma´s sense of normality? And Akane tears through her throng of "admirers" in a way that shows just how "normal" she is (not).

Face it, she´s probably among the world top 1% martial artists. And Nabiki(and Kasumi) is probably among the top 10%.
It´s just that Ranma is at the upper part of the top 1% of the top 1%.

[LawOhki]

Some even put her as a totally average girl(i never really could understand how they could do THAT).

Probably comes from volume 17 where the engagement goes to Nabiki and this happens.
start and then important bit

At the very least Nabiki is physically unable to safely land a drop from the second floor.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Well, to be fair, she could have been really confident that Ranma would save her. Man, she's just so unfazed and relaxed by that... Folded arms all the way down.

Or, maybe it's because she can take that kind of fall? Dun-dun-dunnnn!

Ok, for arguments sake, if anyone can learn it why aren´t they learning? And more importantly, there´s literally a HORDE of highend martial artists involved, yet barely any of them learn ki attacks.

There needs to be a reason. Even if it´s a poor reason(because the nargles told you so) or a halfdecent like the classical "only if your training is already good enough can you learn it little grasshopper" that actually does manage a bit of internal consistency...

Anyway, i think it´s not going to look good if you DO make it available to anyone and their aunt. Letting Nabiki learn however isn´t a problem because as already said, she probably already is a mid to highend martial artist compared to "normal" people.

Why didn't anyone who saw Ranma learning the kachu tenshin amaguriken not take it upon themselves to copy what they observed? A lot of people saw it, including those you might expect would like to improve themselves as a martial artist (for whatever reason that might be). How come only Ryoga learned the bakusai tenketsu, even though it also seems like a useful technique? Even more so, why didn't anyone else ever learn the hiryu shoten ha? Not only did a lot of people get involved and learn how it worked, but it was supposedly the kind of technique that you don't go spreading around all willy-nilly.

Looking for internal consistency is good and all, but not when you have to invent your own facts. If you're looking for consistency, I'd say the best that we've got is the consistency of inconsistency. Not only do a lot of things defy normal logic, but there are quite a number of examples where the same inconsistency is repeated.

Shush now! Everytime reality is brought up kills catgirls you know! Can you really hate catgirls so much that you want to kill more? You blackhearted fiend!

Mmmm... Fishstick kitties.

Yeah, and how normal is Ranma´s sense of normality? And Akane tears through her throng of "admirers" in a way that shows just how "normal" she is (not).

Face it, she´s probably among the world top 1% martial artists. And Nabiki(and Kasumi) is probably among the top 10%.
It´s just that Ranma is at the upper part of the top 1% of the top 1%.

I'm not sure if that answered whether you agree that there's a great enough difference between Nabiki and Ranma or not. I believe this is still positing whether Nabiki should have evaded Ranma in the hedge maze if she didn't have sufficient enough abilities to do so against the upper part of the top 1%.

[PCHeintz72]

Yes, but not to the point where it´s made clear what kind of level of proficiency or strength she actually is(if any). (compared to Ranma/Akane etc i mean)

Personally i totally agree with you, but i´m fairly sure that the general assumption puts her maybe slightly above an average girl of her age rather than an average martial artist her age.
Some even put her as a totally average girl(i never really could understand how they could do THAT).

To me at least, it seems it is really all a matter of perspective I suppose.

Take Akane... She is generally considered the least skilled overall of Ranma's fiancées (and no, I do not want to get into a Akane discussion over that statement), and certainly less skilled than Ranma. She cannot even roof hop, something Kodachi for comparison is shown doing easily from the point of her introduction in series.

However, Akane *outside* Nerima (and outside a specific valley in China) is probably stronger and able to twist most any martial artist in the world into a pretzel...

Nabiki is certainly not shown to be as skilled or as strong or as far along in her training as Akane.. but she manages to survive in Nerima, despite all the antics, the plots, and the obvious money making schemes throughout the story. We see her exercising, and it is obvious she keeps in shape... She is shown easily keeping ahead of Ranma on a bike. I *cannot* take her as normal and untrained... merely not trained to the superhuman standards we see so often in others in the series.

However... that does *not* mean I can simply see a canon Nabiki able to just instantly start duplicating Ranma's techniques, or those of the others. Certainly a story can be made with her learning them... I've read several good ones over the years. but her able to just pull it off would not be to me overly believable.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that she can simply copy anything that any particular character does, though a technique like the moko takabisha may be an exception.

Kasumi manages to survive, too, despite seeming even less capable of taking care of herself than Nabiki. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has anything to do with their physical capabilities. It could just as well be a matter of luck and/or intelligence.

I think it's possible for Akane to jump onto first-story roofs, at the very least. She doesn't seem to have a problem landing from three stories, for instance. Or, take the time when she ate that super soba. Yes, there's the answer right there, except she didn't have much control over how much strength she used. Yet, she had no problem jumping the way that she wanted to. I'm probably looking into that more deeply than necessary, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. And she's probably jumped high enough into the air to clear one story, too, though no specific example is coming to mind. In the end, though, I can understand why she would avoid jumping above people's heads, since she's pretty modest and doesn't much care for guys, and is often wearing something where someone could see her panties from below.

[PCHeintz72]

I think it's possible for Akane to jump onto first-story roofs, at the very least. She doesn't seem to have a problem landing from three stories, for instance. Or, take the time when she ate that super soba. Yes, there's the answer right there, except she didn't have much control over how much strength she used. Yet, she had no problem jumping the way that she wanted to. I'm probably looking into that more deeply than necessary, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. And she's probably jumped high enough into the air to clear one story, too, though no specific example is coming to mind. In the end, though, I can understand why she would avoid jumping above people's heads, since she's pretty modest and doesn't much care for guys, and is often wearing something where someone could see her panties from below.

Akane (under normal power) is shown using ladders. Pretty sure Kuno the same (I know he cannot in anime continuity, cannot recall offhand if he can or cannot in manga continuity). Kodachi, Shampoo, and Ukyo are never shown having that issue, Ranma and his father do not have that issue, Cologne does not have that issue, nor Ryoga or Mousse. I think I recall one time she actually climbed up (not jump or use a ladder)... in a confrontation with the other fiancées, whom were already up there. The only other one whom I am uncertain on is Soun...

You cannot really count Akane's abilities under a external influence or power up.

Considering the training Akane has and her strength, I would not be surprised in the least that she could survive a 3 story drop.