Is Akane a tomboy?

Discuss the Ranma series in this forum.

What do you say?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:45 pm

She's a tomboy, alright.
7
70%
Whatever she is, it isn't a tomboy.
3
30%
I don't know/I don't care.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 10

Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:07 pm

There are several problems with some of the logic being used here. Where to start...

Okay, first, there should be a distinction made between an insult and an observation, because there's a difference. An insult can be based on an observation, but it in no way is guaranteed to be indicative of a truth or what one's actual opinion is, and shouldn't automatically be accepted as such. To take it at face value would do no one any good other than those who already believe her to be a tomboy and wish to maintain that belief irrespective of the argument against it.

Two, what the person in question believes about themselves is just as important, if not more so, than how others see them. One can argue that it's wrong or backward, but it's true. What someone thinks is often seen in how they behave, and we are in a position to observe both that and the effect. That is not a position of choice, but one we start with by default, and to ignore it without the proper context being established would simply be an exercise in fantasy. As readers/watchers we can see the inner workings of characters that we normally wouldn't see of people in real life, and by the very nature of the medium that's the way it's supposed to be unless the author chooses to keep it under wraps, so it would be silly to disregard what we are shown out of hand because the medium is taken out of context.

Three, don't assume how a fictional character sees another based on your own assumptions, because the only perspective you can speak from is your own. If any of us are going to do that, we have a responsibility to research whether it's true or not, and to back up what we say. This applies especially to the more broad claim issued by Noy, where "practically everyone sees her as a tomboy" is simply irresponsible. Take Kuno, for instance. In the beginning of the series he calls Akane "pure and tidy," and alongside that is an illustration of Akane in a rather feminine pose. That's not something that would be said or envisioned by someone who thinks that the object of their desire is a tomboy.

If I'm not mistaken, PCH is referring to what Nabiki said when she sees Akane at the very beginning of the series, but she's not calling her a tomboy. Rather, she calls her behavior weird, or that boys don't like her in a normal way because of it. (The manga and the anime dub I saw used "weird," while the anime sub used the other.) You can probably argue that it's being inferred, but I think that's a stretch.

If anyone's going to argue from the point of view of the characters around Akane, who among them has outright called her a tomboy (and seems to believe it beyond using it as an insult), or inferred the notion strongly enough that it couldn't be argued as meaning anything else? (And, no, "violent maniac" does not mean "tomboy," though I could see it as such in a more humorous context.) Of course, it wouldn't be logical if only a few characters were enough to define how everyone around the person in question thinks of them, so...

Four, make sure your definition of what makes someone a tomboy isn't nonsensical. "Hitting things and being active" does not make someone a tomboy, simply because it's too vague, and would describe a lot of people and fictional characters that no one would consider to be a tomboy. Also, if anger isn't a part of the equation, don't turn around and use a (hair trigger) temper, which is an expression of anger. Besides which, last I checked, anger and tempers never, ever described a tomboy, not even in part. For that matter, neither does impatience. The only thing mentioned that could be associated with a tomboy is being energetic, but that's not a fundamental requirement, and certainly couldn't define someone as a tomboy by itself.

Okay, now on to more specific things.

Noy Telinú wrote:Her mannerisms are boyish. Her dress isn't. But that's because, as I said, she's trying to be feminine. Her terrible skills at femininity doesn't make her a tomboy, but it does reveal that her attitude is more masculine than she would admit.

What kind of logic is that? Her skills (or lack thereof) don't make her a tomboy, but it's somehow indicative of her attitude, which in turn reflects whether she's a tomboy or not? -_- No. Just, no. We've been over this, anyway: a tomboy is defined by what they do, not by what they fail to do. If she's trying to be feminine, how in the world can she be observed as being a tomboy? If she fails at sewing, how could it be seen as if she'd just finished playing football? How could you even begin to equate it like that?

It also sounds like the logic is: if she's not feminine (enough), then she must be a tomboy. Which is, sadly, a very black and white way of looking at it. If you can't prove you're feminine (enough), one must assume that you're a tomboy, rather than concluding that they're neither feminine (enough) or a tomboy.

Whatever you want to call THAT, it's not a girly girl. Her only girly moments are when she's messing with p-chan and having an emotional time with Ranma.
That's so wrong, I don't even feel the need to get into it. ;/

When everyone who knows you calls you a tomboy, it's most likely true. Doesn't Kasumi and Kuno use kun with her?
As mentioned before, please present proof that they're all calling her a tomboy. Or treating her like one, for that matter.

Also, about the honorific in question:

Wikipedia wrote:Kun (君【くん】?) is used by persons of senior status in addressing or referring to those of junior status, or by anyone when addressing or referring to male children or male teenagers, or among male friends. It can also be used by females when addressing a male that they are emotionally attached to or have known for a long period of time. Although kun is generally used for boys, that is not a hard rule. For example, kun can be used to name a close personal friend or family member of either gender. Also, in business settings, young female employees may also be addressed as kun by older males of senior status. It can also be used by male teachers addressing their female students.

In the Diet of Japan (Legislature), chairmen use kun when addressing diet members and ministers. An exception was when Takako Doi was the chairman of the lower house: she used the san title.

I couldn't tell you if they use -kun or not, and thus not exactly why it would be used, but the first underlined part could apply to Kuno, while the second could for Kasumi. It's not strictly used when referring to males, because Ranma would have likely used it when referring to Akane if that had been the case, and it's to my understanding that he tends to not use any honorifics with her at all.

And yes, Ukyo is the cute one because she's more relaxed and can play up the feminity if she wants too in a weird way. O_o

I don't know what that has to do with anything, you fanboy you. ;p

PCHeintz72 wrote:By definition 1 and 2, I think her one. By definition 3, Nabiki thinks her one.

By the first two definitions, I wouldn't think her one. She pursues and prefers too many things considered normal/typical for girls, way more than she does anything typical/normal for boys. In many of the latter instances, it's not because she likes or enjoys it (because she is often in some sort of foul mood during those times), but because it's a matter of circumstance rather than something she intended to do in the first place.

The thing is, she has a bit of a complex about not being seen as feminine, no doubt due to how strong she was before puberty truly distinguished her as a girl among her peers. Like I said before, that should say enough about her not being a tomboy. Just as Ranma tries to prove his masculinity, Akane doesn't take insults and challenges to her femininity lightly, and we see this in the things she does (or tries to do, as the case often is). When there was a chance to play the role of Juliet, for example, she jumped on it like there was no tomorrow, after adamantly showing her disinterest because she had assumed that she would get some kind of masculine role. And her friends had been encouraging her, rather than assuming that a tomboy wouldn't be interested. If that isn't the sort of behavior that can convince someone that she isn't a tomboy, then I don't know if any logical argument or amount of evidence ever could.

By the third definition, I would still doubt it even if it's from Nabiki's perspective. She knows better than many what kind of person her sister is, and even we can see that Akane's life doesn't revolve around pursuits and behaviors considered typical of boys. If she were to ever call Akane a tomboy, I highly doubt that it would be in a context that would show it as being an honest opinion or what she truly believed.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Noy Telinú » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:40 pm

Still not convincing me.

I don't know how to explain it, but Akane is a tomboy in my eyes. That's how it's going to be and you can't convince me otherwise. Why? Because I know people in real life that are like Akane SOOO much that it scares me and they are tomboys for sure.

It's something I am frustrated that I can't explain. The best I can do is say that Akane is one but she doesn't want to be one. It's strange I know but that's how I see it.

Like for example, I want to have a gender, but I don't have one. This I'm not a fanboy. :P

Or that someone is a lesbian but they don't want to be one. They're still a lesbian just in denial.

That's it! Akane is a tomboy in denial. ^_^
"Oh no! What haz happened? As you cats would say." Akane asked, horrified.

"Cats do not speak that way!" Luna yelled.

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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:44 pm

Sure, sure. I feel better being in the minority, anyway, so failing to convince people is a success in its own way.

Although I also find it funny that it took me so long to really think about it, and upon doing so I end up going against the long-established grain.

However, I don't think it's correct to say that Akane is in denial about being a tomboy. At least, not in the sense that it's who she really is and she's covering it up by pretending to be something she's not. Her keen interest in playing Juliet, and her exuberance in wanting to wear a pretty dress for it, was far too genuine.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Noy Telinú » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:59 pm

Yay for you then. :roll:

Yeah I need a better explanation. It's hard.
"Oh no! What haz happened? As you cats would say." Akane asked, horrified.

"Cats do not speak that way!" Luna yelled.

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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:23 pm

Don't you roll your eyes at me, you thing/it/stuff/whatever-it-is-that-defies-definition-and-causes-people-hardships-as-a-result! Or I'll get tomboyish on you, because apparently tomboys are all about being violent when they're not being average girls! Which makes them magical boys that aren't boys!? Does it become sentai!?!? *My eyes bulge as I foam at the mouth*

A harder, better, faster explanation, you mean? :P
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Blackcat101 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:23 pm

Akane is a tomboy because herseft and others see her as one. They say truth hurts, Akane reaction to being called uncute tomboy won't be so violent if hearing that didn't hurt her. By all ways you wanna see it, Akane is a tomboy. A great part of Akane troubles is that she is in denial, she tries hard to be women like but refuses to see her own flaws and defects and acept she has troubles.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:12 pm

Where, when and how does Akane see herself as a tomboy? How can one person who calls her an uncute tomboy be "others," plural? Until "others" can be proven to be more than one person, for what logical reason should an insult or observation given by a single person (or even a few, for that matter) be so significant that it defines what kind of person she is to everyone else (who, again, have not been proven to see her as such)? And how does her reaction to such an insult/observation, and being hurt by it/sensitive about it, prove that she's a tomboy? I mean, of course someone isn't going to like being called something they don't see themselves as being, but that doesn't mean that the one doing the calling is right. And before denial can be used as a part of an explanation in any way, again there's the issue of proof that that's even the case (and I'd like to note that there's a difference between denial and insecurity).

Look, if someone likes the idea of Akane being a tomboy, and wants to keep it like that, I'm cool with it. Considering how often people's perspectives can differ, I have to expect it to some extent. I didn't even bother questioning it for the longest time, because I didn't see anything wrong with just accepting it as is, and I'm sure that Akane will still be viewed as a tomboy in a number of the stories that I'll write in the future. However, if there's a need to argue it as being more than an opinion, just saying whatever as if it's true isn't going to cut it.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Noy Telinú » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:43 am

What you are all saying is true, from a certain point of view...

From my perspective and others, Akane is a tomboy. From yours and others that aren't the other others, Akane is... something else. ?_?

What DO you see her as? Not a girly girl, nor business, nor rational, introverted, nerd, intuitive, thinking, or other stuff.
"Oh no! What haz happened? As you cats would say." Akane asked, horrified.

"Cats do not speak that way!" Luna yelled.

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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Spica75 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:04 am

PCHeintz72 wrote:I have issue with that definition, as it implied a tomboy cannot be a tomboy unless she personally agrees she is a tomboy by her own personal standards...

A stereotype label is one created and assigned by society... it does not even technically have to be correct as long as society believes it is...

Mind you, I do not agree with that, but that is how it is....

So, we should be measuring how Nerima views Akane, and how we view Akane, not how Akane views Akane.


And Nerima looks at her as one of the most popular and desirable GIRLS.


By definition 1 and 2, I think her one. By definition 3, Nabiki thinks her one.

Eh... Exactly what "rough and noisy" activities does she like? She´s a martial artist, should that be the one and ONLY thing that causes her to be labelled? Because that is the ONLY thing i can think of that falls under those two definitions.


Noy wrote:Kasumi, Nabiki, Ranma, Kuno, heck, practically everyone sees her as a tomboy.

Do they? Kuno sees her as his gorgeously girl to date. Ryoga and Kuno certainly thinks of her as the epitome of femininity.

She jumps head first into problems by hitting things and being active. Yes, she's a martial artist, but she has a hair trigger temper.

And girls cant have or do that? What does a bad temper have to do with "tomboy"? Zero.

Her mannerisms are boyish.

No?

When everyone who knows you calls you a tomboy

AFAIK, they don´t. The only one i KNOW, is Ranma, and he does it to annoy and sometimes tease her.


CPR wrote:Also, about the honorific in question:

Just like -chan isn´t strictly limited to girls, -kun isnt limited to boys. And -kun is far more acceptable for both genders, as -chan can be considered a direct insult or very demeaning when applied to males.

Blackcat101 wrote:Akane is a tomboy because herseft and others see her as one. They say truth hurts, Akane reaction to being called uncute tomboy won't be so violent if hearing that didn't hurt her. By all ways you wanna see it, Akane is a tomboy. A great part of Akane troubles is that she is in denial, she tries hard to be women like but refuses to see her own flaws and defects and acept she has troubles.


So if i start calling you gay, and you get annoyed, that means it´s true?
Sorry, but that´s schoolyard logic for 7 year olds.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Spica75 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:14 am

Noy Telinú wrote:What you are all saying is true, from a certain point of view...

From my perspective and others, Akane is a tomboy. From yours and others that aren't the other others, Akane is... something else. ?_?

What DO you see her as? Not a girly girl, nor business, nor rational, introverted, nerd, intuitive, thinking, or other stuff.

Is a label an absolute requirement? If i have to i guess i´ll call her an emotional girl... Oops, girly stereotype, how strange...
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:43 am

Yeah, she's certainly emotional. :shock:

Noy Telinú wrote:What you are all saying is true, from a certain point of view...

From my perspective and others, Akane is a tomboy. From yours and others that aren't the other others, Akane is... something else. ?_?

What DO you see her as? Not a girly girl, nor business, nor rational, introverted, nerd, intuitive, thinking, or other stuff.

It's always from a certain point of view with you. :P But there is a science to this, or else the definitions of words would never be sorted out and hold any true meaning.

The problem is that some people are attributing a bunch of things to the term that have nothing to do with being a tomboy at all, and/or there's so little of the actual attributes present yet it's viewed as if it is exhibited more strongly than it really is. And then there's the issue of making fallacious cause and effect arguments, such as: failure in one thing must mean success in its opposite, i.e. trying and failing to do something feminine is a successful behavior for a tomboy.

What makes someone a tomboy isn't a mystery. It depends on how they dress and behave, in the greater context that how they choose (as in: as opposed to being a practical requirement, and/or necessary to make others aware of their role) to dress and behave is considered typical of a boy and potentially at odds with what is expected of a girl. I say potentially in regard to the latter because what is expected/demanded of girls has declined over the years, giving them more gender-neutral options that may have once been considered typical/expected of males, but which may still be viewed as boyish.

As far as Akane's choice in clothing is concerned, when's she's not wearing her school uniform, practicing martial arts or being ready for bed, it's almost always on the feminine side. I sampled six volumes of the manga for this (1-3, and 9, 17 and 25), from beginning to end, and all but two times she was wearing a dress or a skirt, with the two exceptions being shorts (one time for jogging). The only time she wore anything like trousers was when she acted as Ranma's second in the rhythmic gymnastics match. (I also followed Nabiki, and she almost always wore pants, never a skirt or a dress, with the only two or four exceptions being shorts.)

As for Akane's behavior, let's first excise the things being misconstrued as being attributed to tomboys: anger, temper, physical strength, independence, martial arts, physical fitness, violence, self-defense, competitiveness, stubbornness, providing aid which requires heroism/bravery and/or physical strength, sensitivity to attacks on one's femininity, and failing to be good at -- or have enough skill with -- things that girls are expected to be good at or skilled with.

Now, what makes someone a tomboy isn't all that complicated, but there is a matter of degree to deal with. For instance, you wouldn't call a girl a tomboy based solely on seeing them playing softball. Not only because it's just one thing, but because it doesn't even come close to taking into account all of what she does with her time. It may not even take into account that it was a mandatory activity, rather than one of choice (such as in the case of it being a class activity at school). In other words, a significant part of one's behavior and activities must be considered "like a boy" before they can rightfully be called tomboys. However, age can also affect the requirements, and I'll get to that.

Before adulthood, a tomboy is generally considered a girl who prefers physical activities, not necessarily all of them being outdoors. They are likely to have little qualm about playing rough, and possibly doing dangerous things or getting into fights, and it wouldn't be surprising if they sustained some kind of injury (however minor) or got their clothes and/or themselves dirty fairly often. They can also be untidy, make/leave messes, be rambunctious and not be too concerned with personal hygiene.

When it comes time for the expectations of maturity to come into play, which starts around adulthood, the same rules apply but certain ones tend to be highlighted more than others, meaning the qualifications need not be a lot of things but enough of a few. For instance, in most cases how they dress is a large part of the equation. It's often combined with being into spectator sports, devoting a lot of time to playing at least one of them, or both. That, or how they interact with people, which includes the manner of speech they use; particularly if they tend to hang around the opposite sex as if they were one of them.

As for Akane, there's very little of any of that at all. She prefers to wear gender-"appropriate" clothes, she doesn't do much in the way od physical activities outside of martial arts and school activities (as her idea, rather than in response to the circumstances), actually has quite a number of desires to be more feminine (and tries), has a nice and tidy room, has plenty of stereotypical female interests and reactions (has a spot for romance and cute things, gets scared by horror films and spooky places, was happy about her breasts getting bigger, strongly desired a theater role like Juliet (which any non-tomboyish girl would certainly want), among other things), and the friends she hangs out with are girls (who certainly don't seem to be tomboys themselves) she fits right in with. There are plenty of other things, but I've spent a lot of time on this (with looking through six manga volumes contributing a lot to that), and I'd really like to get to other things today. ;/
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby three headed dog » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:15 pm

Clothing has absolutely nothing to do with being a tomboy in my view. A tomboy in my view is behavior only as in girl that behaves like a spirited, boisterous boy. I've seen too many otherwise girly girls who wear mens clothing all the time because they just like the style (it is now socially acceptable for females to wear guy clothing) and I know one girl who wears men/boy jeans all the time because she hates how they mess with the sizes in female jeans (i.e. the sizing makes little sense to her) other than in that she is not a tomboy at all.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Spica75 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:38 pm

three headed dog wrote:Clothing has absolutely nothing to do with being a tomboy in my view. A tomboy in my view is behavior only as in girl that behaves like a spirited, boisterous boy. I've seen too many otherwise girly girls who wear mens clothing all the time because they just like the style (it is now socially acceptable for females to wear guy clothing) and I know one girl who wears men/boy jeans all the time because she hates how they mess with the sizes in female jeans (i.e. the sizing makes little sense to her) other than in that she is not a tomboy at all.


That´s kinda funny because for some reason i usually find it easier to find jeans that fits me by picking female models. :mrgreen:
Though not by looking at stated sizemarking.
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Blackcat101 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:58 pm

Nabiki, Ranma, and even Kasumi agree that Akane is a bit boyish and has a temper. Even not counting that, Akane does prefer short hair and likes martial arts. The only reason she tried to act more girl like was because she loved Doctor Tofu. A tomboy is a girl than acts like a boy, Akane knows she is no Kasumi, but is in denial of it. So tell me, by what definition is Akane NOT a tomboy?
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Re: Is Akane a tomboy?

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:41 pm

Haven't you read anything some of us have been saying? Most of the things you've said have already been gone over, and I'd like to think refuted.

First, when do those three agree/come to a consensus? Just saying it doesn't make it true.

Having a temper is not required for being a tomboy.

When does Akane express that she prefers her hair short, and how does short hair make someone a tomboy when you don't even have the clothes to go along with the stereotypical appearance?

Martial arts doesn't automatically make a girl a tomboy, or else every woman who learns/learned self-defense would have to be one.

She did not try to act like a girl solely for Tofu's sake. That desire goes as far back as when her peers elected her to be Romeo in the school play, when what she really wanted was to be Juliet.

Being in denial about not being as feminine as Kasumi doesn't make her a tomboy. What kind of logic is that, anyway?
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