Ranma canon questions

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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:12 pm

Oh, are you making a technical argument, because of a long-standing association?
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby LawOhki » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:20 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Oh, are you making a technical argument, because of a long-standing association?

Can you come up with one argument that says he's anything else? Or will you just continue to play the 'well that's not enough for me' game?

Goalposts aren't supposed to move.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:37 pm

I don't know what you're talking about. I've already made an argument for him being an outsider (not living in the village where Shampoo also lives) as being the most likely scenario, based on what is known for certain, not on anything pulled out of the air. I'm not playing a game; I just don't see the logical point of assuming anything for certain with such little (and not all entirely clear) evidence to go on.

In fact, my question was asking if you had set up your own "goal post," because my argument hinges on "outsider" referring to those who would be affected by a certain Joketsuzoku law or not, as opposed to whether someone lived within an area much larger than a single village. I was seeking clarification from you, and nothing more.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby LawOhki » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:43 pm

Your argument is just quibbling over the meaning of a word that Cologne makes completely moot in his initial introduction. Shampoo turned him down when they were children, no mention of any challenge or that he could have done so in the interim. Being that he repeatedly shows a willingness to debase himself in anyway to get Shampoo, there's no justifiable reason for why he wouldn't have challenged her before and won if he was subject to the outsider laws.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Spica75 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:55 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote: Meanwhile, I can still point to solid information (of the common, indisputable variety) that makes him being an outsider more likely than being a Joketsuzoku. Nothing certain, of course, because there's not enough of anything either way for that.


Exactly which information? I might have missed something but all their interaction suggests a rather close relation.

Why can Cologne order him around?
Why does Cologne provide him with food and somewhere to stay(despite the mess he creates)?
If he is "a friend", then Cologne ordering him around makes no sense at all.

And so on...
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:00 am

Some of the information that I directed at Law below. Oh, and by "solid," I mean referencing something that exists, as opposed to making something up. I just wanted to make that clear, as much of it is still circumstantial.

A better question would be: how is Cologne ordering him about indicative that he's a Joketsuzoku or not? I mean, she's going to be family if he manages to win over Shampoo, so he has that and other related reasons to not make her dislike him so much that she will no doubt become an obstacle toward him marrying Shampoo.

Doesn't he work there? Can't Cologne be generous? These are things to consider, too.

Is he truly considered a friend? (I thought the reference to friendship only pertained to Shampoo and Mousse during their childhood...) Couldn't you be assuming that they don't have a more complicated relationship? For instance, what if she doesn't particularly care for him, but she has a good enough relationship with someone in his family, like his mother or grandmother?

LawOhki wrote:Your argument is just quibbling over the meaning of a word that Cologne makes completely moot in his initial introduction. Shampoo turned him down when they were children, no mention of any challenge or that he could have done so in the interim. Being that he repeatedly shows a willingness to debase himself in anyway to get Shampoo, there's no justifiable reason for why he wouldn't have challenged her before and won if he was subject to the outsider laws.

A quibble about a word, huh? Looks like someone wasn't paying attention. Well, I'm not adverse to reiterating my argument, and elaborating while I'm at it.

#1: We know that Joketsuzoku females must marry if they're defeated by an outsider male.

#2: When Mousse introduces himself, he asserts that he's going to be Shampoo's groom, not that he already is.

#3: Cologne brings up the point that Mousse was spurned (defeated in a fight) by Shampoo when they were three, which is counter to his assumption that he still had a chance to win her in the same fashion.

#4: Mousse didn't know that age didn't matter, that that particular fight would count, or that he'd only get one chance, which suggests that he (at that time) had only been aware of the one thing that we had been aware of up until that point; and if he knew at least that much when he was three is anyone's guess. (Now, if he was of Joketsuzoku, and was truly dead set on being married to Shampoo, I imagine he'd know more details about their laws at some point, particularly pertaining to the most relevant one(s), and especially since said laws seem to be taken seriously enough by them. Either he'd know enough to call bullshit on Cologne, or -- as an outsider -- he wouldn't know any better, or would otherwise have to accept how the law would apply to him. Either way, it does him no favors for anyone who argues that he is not an outsider, as in not being a Joketsuzoku.)

#5: When that route's shut down and he can't win Shampoo directly, he clearly intends to win Shampoo indirectly, by defeating Ranma, the guy who had "defeated" Shampoo, but is denied that before he can voice it.

It's not hard to see that all of that revolves around the idea of defeating someone to win them, both explicitly and implicitly, which relates to one of the few things that we know about the Joketsuzoku for certain. We know one way how outsider males can marry Joketsuzoku females. We don't know anything in specific about how Joketsuzoku males go about marrying their fellow females (beyond what we consider a normal convention), outsider females, or even if males in the family live in the village or are considered Joketsuzoku at all regardless of whether they do or not. Anything regarding the males is a big question mark, as even Shampoo's father does not make an appearance in the village, and his role in her life is rather nebulous. But, again, we know one thing for certain about what happens when outsider males defeat Joketsuzoku females. (Also, the term stated in the laws is one's defeat; there is no mention of needing to challenge anyone first.)

I think I've made my argument pretty clear. It has next to nothing to do with a word that Cologne had used. I'm not even sure which one you're referring to. Is it "spurned?" I see Mousse getting kicked by Shampoo, which seems to suggest a defeat in a fight, so it seems obvious that "spurn" is not being referred to as a verbal rebuff in this context.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby LawOhki » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:03 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Is he truly considered a friend? (I thought the reference to friendship only pertained to Shampoo and Mousse during their childhood...) Couldn't you be assuming that they don't have a more complicated relationship? For instance, what if she doesn't particularly care for him, but she has a good enough relationship with someone in his family, like his mother or grandmother?

Later chapters indicate that he's been around her his entire life. Cologne even thinks they are good enough friends that it's alright if he takes her out every once and a while.

#3: Cologne brings up the point that Mousse was spurned (defeated in a fight) by Shampoo when they were three, which is counter to his assumption that he still had a chance to win her in the same fashion.

Right here is where any point falls apart. Unless you can show that the translation is off and the original text implies or states that they had a fight. Shampoo beats up Mousse all the time, her kicking him in the past suggests nothing but she reacted violently to his proposal. Which in Ranma verse is a reasonable reaction.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Cheb » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Does the Strong Women tribe consist of several villages? (are the villages parts of the same tribe?)
Does the village consist of clans?

What is an outsider, relative to the tribe? to a village? to a clan?

One could only guess :mrgreen:
Each answer changes the picture radically, but there are no answers.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Konsaki » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:17 pm

Cheb wrote:Each answer changes the picture radically, but there are no answers.
Yes, there are! The answers are 'Takahashi Rumiko' and 'Rule of Fun'! :P

This is probably the reason why Ranma fanfics are so easily made divergent from cannon; there are just so many holes in the world to change up to how you want it to be.
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby PCHeintz72 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:13 am

Cheb wrote:Does the Strong Women tribe consist of several villages? (are the villages parts of the same tribe?)
Does the village consist of clans?

What is an outsider, relative to the tribe? to a village? to a clan?

One could only guess :mrgreen:
Each answer changes the picture radically, but there are no answers.

Ehhh... wouldn't there have to be multiple villages at the least? Unless I'm misremembering, the two girls Pink and Link are old rivals of Shampoo from a nearby village of herbalists... Considering they were rivals I think for some 10 years and were fighting each other, I would consider the village they came from to be associated with Shampoos... otherwise why in the world would they have ever met?
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Cheb » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:26 am

Exactly! Are the herbalists Amazons?
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Re: Ranma canon questions

Postby Blackcat101 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:51 pm

Cheb wrote:Exactly! Are the herbalists Amazons?


No they are not. And the reason they are rivals is because the girls are weird and Shampoo keep beaiting them up every time she saw them. Basically one of the girls poisoned shampoo, the other cured her. Shampoo got angry and beat them up, then keep doing that EVERY SINGLE TIME she saw them.
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