MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

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MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:15 pm

So, I was wondering about something. If unicorns could -- at one time -- control the sun and moon (like Celestia and Luna do), what were the celestial bodies doing before unicorns? Are unicorns not the only ones that can control the sun and the moon, or would unicorns need to come into existence with Equestria (naturally knowing what needs to be done, and how) if not predate its creation (and possibly be its creator)? Or is there some other possible explanation for how this could work?
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:17 pm

How often do we have to explain? It's turtles all the way down.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby frice2000 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 pm

Discord ruled Equestria before Luna and Celestia overthrew him with the Elements. I assume rising and setting the sun as he felt best, which would've likely been damned chaotic. One answer that Lauren Faust did give was that both Luna and Celestia were born as Alicorns. Hence they likely got their cutie marks for raising and lowering their respective celestial objects around the same age most of the foals do...Which would be pretty young given what we know of when they get said Cutie Marks. So then, that likely means the unicorns might not have had to do it long if at all. And perhaps it's just something they did before Discord took over, and then Celestia and Luna began their diarchy. You'd likely be far better off asking this on some Fimfiction Forum. They'd likely have the answer at hand.

That doesn't really entirely answer your question though. Some more info on Alicorns here: http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Alicorns but you probably found that already. Also be sure to check Equestria Dailies Lauren Faust answers questions thing search for that sort of article here example of what one of them looks like: here. That question has probably already been asked before somewhere. Either on her Twitter or her Deviantart pages. She answers questions in both places.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:12 am

*Looks at the search thingy*

...

*Performs a few searches*

...

...

...Needle, meet haystack. ;/

Also, their cutie marks don't seem to indicate any real relation to manipulating either celestial object, since Celestia had to do both for a thousand years. It's also noted that a unicorn's magic is normally focused on what their cutie mark represents, which is why we don't see other unicorns doing whatever magic they feel like. That is something else that makes me wonder about unicorns being able to manipulate the sun and moon, with that kind of restriction. (Heck, for all we know, cutie marks could have proceeded a time where they could manipulate the sun and moon, which would beg the question of who/what placed it on every kind of pony, and why. Well, I figure it could get troublesome if every unicorn could do it, like every time they had a practical joker, someone doing it out of anger, someone in a drunken state, someone doing it in their sleep, et cetera...) Either way, the fact that Celestia and Luna are alicorns seems to make their cutie marks nothing more than flank decorations.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby frice2000 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:09 am

Of course their cutie marks have something to do with it. It's their 'special talent'. It's supposed to be what makes them happy and what they are talented in doing. Of course they can do magic unrelated to that but raising the sun and moon specifically are what they are talented in. And taking it a step further it means they shepherd the seasons, keep their subjects safe by maintaining those cycles, etc. Luna also keeps ponies safe at night and maintains some control over dreams. Celestia likewise probably has a similar function during the day. So yes it's all related.

Also from what I understand about the unicorns raising it thing is that it took a group of powerful archmages to do it not just one or two.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:10 am

I was under the impression that unicorns couldn't do much else beyond what their cutie marks indicated, in part because I imagine the world would be very different if unicorns (and alicorns, by extension) couldn't be contested by the other ponies, which doesn't seem to be the case (if the story told in that play holds any truth about their history). Celestia and Luna have both done things completely unrelated to their own cutie marks, as if their special talents were the same as Twilight's. (And Luna certainly hadn't been made happy enough by fiddling with the moon. :P )

And don't even get me started on Cadence, whose cutie mark "coincidentally" just happens to fit rather conveniently for someone who ends up ruling a long-missing kingdom that requires the use of a crystal heart to put up a protective barrier. It makes me think that the cutie marks are a scam! :O
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby frice2000 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:51 pm

I have no idea where you got that idea from at all. Rarity uses many of the same basic spells as Twilight. Basic telekinesis, writing while holding the quill with her magic, etc. Twilight used magic before she had her cutie mark hence the test she was taking when she got her mark. The Cakes babies use magic before they can even talk. The very fact that there are magical schools and magic kindergarten kind of indicates a basic set of spells that all unicorns and others can use.

Their cutie marks aren't supposed to limit them or even represent what they do for a living. Twilight was a librarian before she became a Princess. Was that related to her cutie mark? Rainbow works at a making weather while her cutie mark is related to speed... So no cutie marks limit them not at all. It's just supposed to represent their talents and what makes them happy. That's it. And yes raising the Moon and Stars makes Luna very happy. It was the fact that she thought nopony appreciated it and slept through most of her hard work while they frolicked and played in Celestia's day that bothered her.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:54 pm

I don't equate telekinesis with magic, though it's probably more accurate if I went old school and did numbered spells, like Fire 1 through Fire 4. (Where Rarity has access to the basic magic, Fire 1, while Twilight's got all four.) The fact that there's a need to distinguish gifted unicorns from the not-so-gifted (mundane?) very clearly indicates that not all unicorns are created equal. Is it because of their destined special talent (the cutie mark crusaders make it very obvious that they won't get anywhere until they realize what their special talents are) that each individual unicorn can only go so far with their magic? I don't want to make that assumption just yet, but the relation between cutie marks and unicorn magic just isn't making enough sense to me.

The argument concerning Twilight being a librarian is faulty. You forget that the books in the library contain many magic-related things, and we see Twilight learning new spells all the time, from said books or not. I'm pretty sure that being a librarian wasn't her main, I'm-going-to-do-this-for-life pursuit, and I doubt the thought ever crossed her mind (what with being Celestia's number-one pupil). As for Rainbow Dash: pegasi fly, which invariably involves speed, and speed does seem to be a part of their work and culture, so it's only natural that some will have some kind of talent for it. If you really wanted to argue a strange cutie mark in relation to what kind of pony they are, I would have gone with Fluttershy. However, that's neither here nor there, since those are different magics from a unicorn's, and so the capabilities and expectations are different.

If raising the moon was truly satisfying for Luna, she wouldn't've cared if no one else appreciated it. And if she were a wise pony, she would have realized that night couldn't be appreciated in the same way as day, and had -- in fact -- been showing their appreciation all along. :P
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby frice2000 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:08 pm

Wrong on so much here. Yes. There are gifted unicorns. Like there are gifted people. Twilight though is an EXCEPTIONAL gifted unicorn. Hence her ascension. Obviously she's not common. But even then Twilight isn't an exception as Celestia has had other pupils throughout history.

As to the CMC's they're going about it all wrong doing what human kids even do to some extent try on different things to find out what they enjoy. And furthermore their WHOLE point as characters is that even if you're missing something that prevents you from fitting in doesn't mean you're inferior in some fashion. Cutie marks aren't supposed to dictate their lives. That's not the point. It's usually what they end up doing as they enjoy it and hence they usually end up in those fields. But Rarity for example is good with gems that's her talent. Yet she usually works on clothes with gem accents. By your logic she'd be purely a jeweler.

As to Luna people and obviously magical talking ponies with similar psychology to humans like to have their work and what they do appreciated. She wasn't getting that for centuries and it bothered her. Imagine you did a job for 30 years much less hundreds and pretty much everyone shrugged and said they liked your sisters work far better and kind of didn't care for yours. Yeah you'd have issues with them and with those ungrateful towards you.
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Re: MLP: FIM -- The sun and moon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:19 pm

You say I'm wrong, yet more or less say what I did with different words? XD;;

Also, I'm not saying that cutie marks dictates a pony's life completely, but it certainly narrows down the prospects, to the point where there's little deviation. Since you brought up Rarity, let's use her as an example. When she got her cutie mark, she was able to use a spell to find gems without needing to learn it, unwillingly; unlike Twilight, who had to poke her nose into a book and learn how to do the same thing. Obviously there's some connection between a unicorn's cutie mark and their magic, and while most examples tend to stick within the realm that their cutie marks represent, and don't show anything else of note beyond that or the basics (telekinesis), some don't follow that trend, which is why I started this topic.

Personally, I never cared about being appreciated. I just don't see the point. But if I were in Luna's hooves, I'd see the appreciation on every sleeping face, and anyone else who sees various ways to benefit from drawing a day to a close. It can't be day and activity all of the time; it's simply not done for us and these ponies.
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