Temple of Ranma's Sailor Senshi Seifuku

...Of the image below, if it's available. It's the chapter where Sora's boobs grow suddenly and knock out that guy she's interested in. (Seemed memorable enough to help in finding it...) I'd like to compare them and see if they're saying the same thing or not.

Also, if anyone can make sense of the translation shown below, I'd like to hear it. It sounds like it could be a grandfather type paradox, to me. Potentially, at least. Like, if people expend energy trying to make their dreams come true, but they make a wish to make said dream come true, it's either some kind of pseudo-retroactive nabbing or they get energy that wasn't expended to make it happen. Also, is it just me, or does it sound like "expended energy" is the equivalent of toxic waste? I'm trying to figure out how they have a use for energy already consumed. Maybe I'm just ignorant, or missing something...

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:...Of the image below, if it's available. It's the chapter where Sora's boobs grow suddenly and knock out that guy she's interested in. (Seemed memorable enough to help in finding it...) I'd like to compare them and see if they're saying the same thing or not.

Also, if anyone can make sense of the translation shown below, I'd like to hear it. It sounds like it could be a grandfather type paradox, to me. Potentially, at least. Like, if people expend energy trying to make their dreams come true, but they make a wish to make said dream come true, it's either some kind of pseudo-retroactive nabbing or they get energy that wasn't expended to make it happen. Also, is it just me, or does it sound like "expended energy" is the equivalent of toxic waste? I'm trying to figure out how they have a use for energy already consumed. Maybe I'm just ignorant, or missing something...

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It's not the translation but the way you are looking at it.

Think of this energy in the context of Watts. So you know, Watts are a function of resistance (Amps^2 * ohms).

Now this resistance in the contest we are looking at it is many things: time, education, natural ability, and so on.


To keep things simple let's look at time by itself. Say on your own it would take 25 years to realize your dream.

To keep the math simple we will assume Amps is 1 so Watts = 25

But a wish allows your to realize your dream much faster ie ohms decreases.

Say thanks to a wish your dream only takes 1 year to achieve or only 1 Watt. But you had 25 watts to begin with to "spend" on that particular dream. The god or demon gets the 24 Watt difference by giving you a wish.

That seems awfully efficient... Maybe too efficient? I mean, to make the dream happen with a wish, the wish now replaces the expended effort. We're talking about something that can defy and/or change reality, and potentially enforce a wish indefinitely. Without knowing what is expended to make all that happen, now it doesn't sound efficient at all. One of the problems that I have with the explanation given by Hild is that they (both gods and demons) are open to destroying the very source of the energy they need. Sure, the cost is proportional to the wish, but that's rather ambiguous. It also suggests limitations between the cost and demand, and the problem with that is that even a single goddess has enough power to destroy the world by accident. Since there are who knows how many gods and demons, and I have a hard time seeing them get much out of the energy that humans don't use by using whatever method to make something they want to happen to happen sooner (and may not have been achievable by them at all; Keiichi, for instance, whose wish was only possible once the object of his wish appeared for the very first time), it just doesn't make much sense to me.

I wish it worked like electromagnetic induction. ;/

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:That seems awfully efficient... Maybe too efficient? I mean, to make the dream happen with a wish, the wish now replaces the expended effort. We're talking about something that can defy and/or change reality, and potentially enforce a wish indefinitely. Without knowing what is expended to make all that happen, now it doesn't sound efficient at all. One of the problems that I have with the explanation given by Hild is that they (both gods and demons) are open to destroying the very source of the energy they need. Sure, the cost is proportional to the wish, but that's rather ambiguous. It also suggests limitations between the cost and demand, and the problem with that is that even a single goddess has enough power to destroy the world by accident. Since there are who knows how many gods and demons, and I have a hard time seeing them get much out of the energy that humans don't use by using whatever method to make something they want to happen to happen sooner (and may not have been achievable by them at all; Keiichi, for instance, whose wish was only possible once the object of his wish appeared for the very first time), it just doesn't make much sense to me.

I wish it worked like electromagnetic induction. ;/

As I have said before "magic" is simply a label we slap on things we don't understand.

Here is what Carl Sagan said in the print version of Cosmos: "If a fourth-dimension creature existed it could, in our three-dimensional universe, appear and dematerialize at will, change shape remarkably, pluck us out of locked rooms, and make us appear from nowhere." Think about the amount of energy all that would take from a 3D prospective.

In the Tenchi OVA the three Goddesses (Washu, Tsunami, and Tokimi) are multi-dimensional beings and all their powers are the shadow of that multidimensionality. They have allowed certain people tap into this power and by the 3rd OVA we get a battle what would have most of the Dragon Ball Z cast running off and hiding. Heck, Z blows up half of Earth with one shot!

One of the reasons black holes are a pain in science is a static hole's center is crushed into a point ie an object with no height, width, or length. This plays total havoc with many of Einstein's Equations resulting in total gibberish.

As far as accidentally destroying the world let me introduce you to the Kardashev scale:

Type; Description; Power (W)
I; A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available on a single planet; ~10^16
II; A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single star; ~10^26
III; A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy; ~10^36

To Type II guys antimatter (the crowning achievement of a Type I civilization) is a WASTE BYPRODUCT of their technology. Type II civilizations mess around with SOLAR SYSTEMS and Type III mess around with ENTIRE GALAXIES. One planet is nothing on these kind of tech scales.

"There are things in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. They are vast, timeless. And if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants, and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us! We know, we've tried! And we've learned we can either stay out from under foot, or be stepped on." - G'Kar talking about a Type III civilization in Babylon 5's "Mind War"

To put this into prospective the Moon Kingdom was not even a Type II and neither were any of their foes.

The universe seems to be dependent on Yggdrasil, at least after/while the universal superstring is destroyed. That kind of tech would seem to infer something greater than what was mentioned with Tech III. Although I don't know how the tech, in relation to harnessing energy, is related to how a goddess can destroy an Earth-sized planet due to a power surge. The problem I have is that they can do all that, and who knows what else, but they somehow get that energy from granting the wishes of humans, and only a mere fraction of them at that (which I'm assuming is the case since the world would be very different if most or all of them got wishes).

As a side note: if memory serves me well enough, Vegeta could have destroyed Earth during his first visit, and his power level was below one-hundred thousand at the time. Much later, their power levels are in the millions. Z isn't all that impressive compared to that, although I can't say that I recall much in the way of a battle happening.

I think you're confusing things up with qualifications not needed.

Yggdrasil is not part of/bound to the rules of normal reality. It is the thing that is running reality. If it says that you would have expended X amount of energy to get something and a wish is made to do it instantly, then it allocates that much energy to whichever group made the wish.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:The universe seems to be dependent on Yggdrasil, at least after/while the universal superstring is destroyed. That kind of tech would seem to infer something greater than what was mentioned with Tech III. Although I don't know how the tech, in relation to harnessing energy, is related to how a goddess can destroy an Earth-sized planet due to a power surge. The problem I have is that they can do all that, and who knows what else, but they somehow get that energy from granting the wishes of humans, and only a mere fraction of them at that (which I'm assuming is the case since the world would be very different if most or all of them got wishes).

As a side note: if memory serves me well enough, Vegeta could have destroyed Earth during his first visit, and his power level was below one-hundred thousand at the time. Much later, their power levels are in the millions. Z isn't all that impressive compared to that, although I can't say that I recall much in the way of a battle happening.

You are forgetting that the whole plan in the Tenchi OVA was to create something more powerful then the three goddesses who had created the entire Tenchi universe together. Z was Tokami's "entry" so to speak, Tenchi was Tsunami's and I suspect Ryoko was Washu's.

I should mention the Drag on Brawl ZZZZZ anime went Silver Age Superman happy really early on upping the power to such insane levels that everyone had to be written as a total moron for there to be any conflict.

The Sailor Scouts have much the same problem though things don't get totally ridiculous until the Sailor Saturn-Pharaoh 90 arc...and keep going up from there. And these guys are supposedly only at Tech I. Depending on if you use the anime or manga Sailor Saturn could take out a planet or a solar system (she supposedly "rebooted" the solar system of the Silver Millennium to ours with her death born revolution)

Of course if you want to get to totally insane power levels the Time Trapper and Mad Jim Japsers if written intelligently and at full power would reduce most anime characters to a smear.

The Post Crisis Trapper was totally insane as he duplicated the entire universe and then "pruned" the parts he didn't need. This guy not only created an entire universe but he killed off the Green Lantern Corp, the New Gods, the Controllers, and everybody who wasn't on Earth and Krypton.

(Just to remind anyone who may have forgotten, or a future passerby who could help: I'm still hoping to see Dark Horse's translation.)

Maximara wrote:You are forgetting that the whole plan in the Tenchi OVA was to create something more powerful then the three goddesses who had created the entire Tenchi universe together. Z was Tokami's "entry" so to speak, Tenchi was Tsunami's and I suspect Ryoko was Washu's.

How is that relevant to explaining how the gods and demons get enough energy from a choice few humans to be somewhat comparable to the Chousin, though? I don't even think that the Chousin themselves are relevant for comparison or argument, since they made the universe with their own energy as opposed to using tech to harness all of the energy of a pre-existing universe.

LawOhki wrote:I think you're confusing things up with qualifications not needed.

Yggdrasil is not part of/bound to the rules of normal reality. It is the thing that is running reality. If it says that you would have expended X amount of energy to get something and a wish is made to do it instantly, then it allocates that much energy to whichever group made the wish.

That doesn't sound right. It is bound enough to reality that the part of it connected to the third dimension, and any goddesses within it, would have been subject to the stoppage of time. Yggdrasil is more a manipulator/adjuster of reality than the establisher of its rules. When the universal superstring was destroyed, for instance, all of Yggdrasil's resources were used to substitute and reconstruct it. The system was essentially down, yet everything in reality continued to run normally, because its existence and operation was being fulfilled by the universal superstring. The only thing that was truly affected by it were the gods, especially the goddesses who relied on the energy that Yggdrasil sent to them while they were in the third dimension.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote: LawOhki:I think you're confusing things up with qualifications not needed.

Yggdrasil is not part of/bound to the rules of normal reality. It is the thing that is running reality. If it says that you would have expended X amount of energy to get something and a wish is made to do it instantly, then it allocates that much energy to whichever group made the wish.

That doesn't sound right. It is bound enough to reality that the part of it connected to the third dimension, and any goddesses within it, would have been subject to the stoppage of time. Yggdrasil is more a manipulator/adjuster of reality than the establisher of its rules. When the universal superstring was destroyed, for instance, all of Yggdrasil's resources were used to substitute and reconstruct it. The system was essentially down, yet everything in reality continued to run normally, because its existence and operation was being fulfilled by the universal superstring. The only thing that was truly affected by it were the gods, especially the goddesses who relied on the energy that Yggdrasil sent to them while they were in the third dimension.[/quote]

You are looking at things from a Newtonian prospective. Time is relative. StarGate has an episode (Matter of Time) where thanks to the end gate being near a black hole time in the base slows down relative to the rest of Earth. The original Star Trek had "Wink of an Eye" where people move so fast that from their prospective everything appears to be frozen.

This is how Yggdrasil could make time 'stop'.

...I don't see how that can be correct. Even if I'm looking at things from a Newtonian perspective, as you say, it's only because of relating how things work in Aa! Megami-sama! Or, if you're comparing the events that happened between Aa! Megami-sama! and Stargate, and that's not Newtonian, yet I'm clearly basing what I say from the former, then how is it I have a Newtonian perspective? It's not making any sense to me.

Since what happened in Aa! Megami-sama! and Stargate are different, however, there's also a problem with the comparison you're making. I've seen that episode of Stargate, and I'm pretty sure that's not what would have happened in Aa! Megami-sama!; time would have literally paused, instantly, like a switch being flipped. There was even a program/spell that rewound an individual's time specifically. (One application was meant to rewind Keiichi back until he ceased to exist, but both instances of its use were on goddesses, and they can't have their time rewound until they cease to exist because they're eternal or whatever.)

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:...I don't see how that can be correct. Even if I'm looking at things from a Newtonian perspective, as you say, it's only because of relating how things work in Aa! Megami-sama! Or, if you're comparing the events that happened between Aa! Megami-sama! and Stargate, and that's not Newtonian, yet I'm clearly basing what I say from the former, then how is it I have a Newtonian perspective? It's not making any sense to me.

In Newtonian physics time is an absolute: the passage of time on Earth is exactly the same as it is on Jupiter or the Moon. And anything that effects time in one part of the universe would effect time in the exact same way everywhere else. Einstein threw that model out the window.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Since what happened in Aa! Megami-sama! and Stargate are different, however, there's also a problem with the comparison you're making. I've seen that episode of Stargate, and I'm pretty sure that's not what would have happened in Aa! Megami-sama!; time would have literally paused, instantly, like a switch being flipped. There was even a program/spell that rewound an individual's time specifically. (One application was meant to rewind Keiichi back until he ceased to exist, but both instances of its use were on goddesses, and they can't have their time rewound until they cease to exist because they're eternal or whatever.)

A while earlier you stated:

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:The universe seems to be dependent on Yggdrasil, at least after/while the universal superstring is destroyed.

Superstring involves at least 10 spacetime dimensions and the more involved theory cranks that number up to 26. And all these theories only involve only one dimension of time.

The problem with that is according to William J. Kaufmann's 1979 Black Holes and Warped Spacetime is past the event horizon of a black hole time and space are switched ie you gain the same freedom in time as you had in space (being able to go forward-back, left-right, and up-down) while being dragged in one direction in space.

But superstring's actual name is supersymmetric string theory so for Kaufmann's statement to be correct time MUST have at least three dimensions and since you have another 6 physical dimensions just for supersymmetric string theory to even work that means you must have another 6 dimensions of time for Supersymmetry to be maintained.

I can get a handle on he first three dimensions of time (left-right is alternate timelines and up-down is the effect of gravity on time) but what the sam hill would the fourth dimension of time be like nevermind the 9th or 25th dimensions?

If Eisenstein and Mach drop kicked Newton's model of the universe out the window supersymmetric string theory goes out to to crumpled remains and beats it up, takes its lunch money, shoves it in a garbage can, and kicks it down the stairwell of a 100 story building.

As far as the program/spell that rewound an individual's time specifically unless it actually sends the person back in time along their personal timeline (as what is happening for the entire world in Fritz Leiber's 1947 The Man Who Never Grew Young) this is not a problem.

This getting too young trope has been done to near death generally using the Fountain of Youth (or a scientific stand in) with people either drinking too much or it working too well. Examples I have seen are Twilight Zone's 1963 "A Short Drink from a Certain Fountain", Peabody's Improbable History (1959-1960) with Juan Ponce de León (his men were very thirsty), Star Trek the Animated series 1974 "Counter-Clock Incident", the 1990 Marvel comic Weird War III (where Hitler uses the life force of people be killed in the death camps to make himself younger. There is a power surge that kills the person operating the machine leaving Hitler to keep getting younger until he is nothing but a zygote which then ceases to exist when the machine tries to make it younger), and Star Trek: The Next Generation's 1988 "Too Short a Season".

The getting too young trope is a been there, done that, have a whole truck load of T-shirts.

DC's Zero Hour had a different take; when the point of time you were born in was wiped out by the enthalpy wave you simply winked out of existence though there things were non consistent (DC has had problems when it does ideas like this).

Well, if there's a problem with Yggdrasil being able to substitute and reconstruct the superstring, take that up with Fujishima. I'm only relating canon.

So, regressing someone via the rewinding of time, without traveling through time or affecting the past, isn't a problem because it's a trope? :O

Maximara wrote:In Newtonian physics time is an absolute: the passage of time on Earth is exactly the same as it is on Jupiter or the Moon. And anything that effects time in one part of the universe would effect time in the exact same way everywhere else. Einstein threw that model out the window.

Fujishima doesn't adhere to Newtonian physics. This is just a demonstration of how much control Yggdrasil has over the third dimension, and thus how it normally operates, by "making time stop." It's just that the section/block that's functionally connected with the third dimension will be affected as well.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Well, if there's a problem with Yggdrasil being able to substitute and reconstruct the superstring, take that up with Fujishima. I'm only relating canon.

I'm just saying that if Yggdrasil can do that then it is has to be a minimum of 9 dimensions in space

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:So, regressing someone via the rewinding of time, without traveling through time or affecting the past, isn't a problem because it's a trope? :O

No,am just saying that there are OTHER ways of making some one too young with out invoking some bizarre form of time manipulation.

Maximara=In Newtonian physics time is an absolute: the passage of time on Earth is exactly the same as it is on Jupiter or the Moon. And anything that effects time in one part of the universe would effect time in the exact same way everywhere else. Einstein threw that model out the window.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Fujishima doesn't adhere to Newtonian physics. This is just a demonstration of how much control Yggdrasil has over the third dimension, and thus how it normally operates, by "making time stop." It's just that the section/block that's functionally connected with the third dimension will be affected as well.

Uh while Einstein did com up with the concept of spacetime where time and space are connected they aren't connected like that! A 4D being in our 3D universe "could appear and dematerialize at will, change shape remarkably, pluck us out of locked rooms, and make us appear from nowhere" but it still would have no more control over time then you or I do.

We should consider that they way things are being explained is the simplest way for them to understand it-doesn't mean that is how things actually work.

Antimatter is a case in point. The easiest way to mathematically deal with antimatter is to have normal matter go backwards through time. The problem with that is it also requires that matter to be going faster then the speed of light (this is why the hypothetical Tachyon goes backwards in time) and that is a major no no.

Well, when I said that Fujishima doesn't adhere to Newtonian physics, I didn't mean that he was faithful to anything else. While he uses physics often enough, and even quantum physics, he also incorporates fantasy/supernatural elements into them.

Maximara wrote:I'm just saying that if Yggdrasil can do that then it is has to be a minimum of 9 dimensions in space

It never specifies what dimension the gods are from, but I reckon it's higher than three. For instance, the goddesses on Earth need to "constantly regenerate their atomic structure" so third dimensional beings can see them.

Also, it might be worth noting that Norse mythology has nine worlds.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Well, when I said that Fujishima doesn't adhere to Newtonian physics, I didn't mean that he was faithful to anything else. While he uses physics often enough, and even quantum physics, he also incorporates fantasy/supernatural elements into them.

Given just how wild quantum physics can get (Schrödinger's cat that is bother alive and dead at the same time until you look in the box case in point) figuring out what are the fantasy/supernatural elements and what are actually from quantum physics could be a project.

Gary Zukav's The Dancing Wu Li Masters might as have the subtitle: A Mysticist's Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and is a good way to get a handle on Quantum Mechanics.

If you really want go down the rabbit hole watch Dr Quantum's Quantum Mechanics Double Slit, Entanglement & Flatland

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Maximara=I'm just saying that if Yggdrasil can do that then it is has to be a minimum of 9 dimensions in space.

It never specifies what dimension the gods are from, but I reckon it's higher than three. For instance, the goddesses on Earth need to "constantly regenerate their atomic structure" so third dimensional beings can see them.

This may be the limitations of what we know I was talking about. In my Creatures of Darkness (A Hellsing-Master of Mosquiton OVA-3x3 mix) I have Satan (a OC Sanjiyan Unkara) comment that when she originally explained the Ningen no Zou to Alucard in the 15th century she was limited by what was known at that time and so was reduced to describing it as an "ultimate philosopher's stone and a jug that held not water but energy". But in the late 20th she can be more accurate as to its nature: "effectively a power plant, dynamo, transformer, capacitor, and battery all rolled up into one little package".

The way we know of what a 4D being could do in our 3D universe comes from Edwin Abbott Abbott's 1884 novella Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions which many including Carl Sagan have used (it's a little long but to get you to really understand what is going on it has to be):

In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos astronomers sometimes say that space is curved or that the universe is finite but unbounded.
Whatever are they talking about? Let's imagine that we are perfectly flat I mean, absolutely flat and that we live, appropriately enough, in Flatland a land designed and named by Edwin Abbott a Shakespearean scholar who lived in Victorian England.
Everybody in Flatland is, of course, exceptionally flat.
We have squares, circles, triangles and we all scurry about and we can go into our houses and do our flat business.
Now, we have width and length but no height at all.
These cutouts have some height, but let's ignore that.
Let's imagine that these are absolutely flat.
That being the case, we know, us Flatlanders about left-right and about forward-back but we have never heard of up-down.
Let us imagine that into Flatland hovering above it comes a strange three-dimensional creature which, oddly enough, looks like an apple.
The three-dimensional creature sees an attractive congenial-looking square watches it enter its house and decides in a gesture of inter-dimensional amity to say hello.
"Hello," says the three-dimensional creature.
"How are you? I am a visitor from the third dimension.
" Well, the poor square looks around his closed house sees no one there and what's more, has witnessed a greeting coming from his insides: A voice from within.
He surely is getting a little worried about his sanity.
The three-dimensional creature is unhappy about being considered a psychological aberration and so he descends to actually enter Flatland.
Now, a three-dimensional creature exists in Flatland only partially only a plane, a cross section through him can be seen.
So when the three-dimensional creature first reaches Flatland only its points of contact can be seen.
And we'll represent that by stamping the apple in this ink pad and placing that image in Flatland.
And as the apple were to descend through slither by Flatland we would progressively see higher and higher slices which we can represent by cutting the apple.
So the square, as time goes on sees a set of objects mysteriously appear from nowhere, and inside a closed room and change their shape dramatically.
His only conclusion could be that he's gone bonkers.
Well, the apple might be a little annoyed at this conclusion and so not such a friendly gesture from dimension to dimension makes a contact with the square from below and sends our flat creature fluttering and spinning above Flatland.
At first, the square has no idea what's happening.
He's terribly confused.
This is utterly outside his experience.
But after a while, he comes to realize that he is seeing inside closed rooms in Flatland.
He is looking inside his fellow flat creatures: He is seeing Flatland from a perspective no one has ever seen it before, to his knowledge.
Getting into another dimension provides, as an incidental benefit a kind of x-ray vision.
Now our flat creature slowly descends to the surface and his friends rush up to see him.
From their point of view, he has mysteriously appeared from nowhere.
He hasn't walked from somewhere else.
He's come from some other place.
They say, "For heaven's sake, what's happened to you?" And the poor square has to say: "Well, I was in some other mystic dimension called 'Up.
"' And they will pat him on his side and comfort him or else they'll ask: "Well, show us.
Where is that third dimension? Point to it.
" And the poor square will be unable to comply.

----

This is more likely what is going on with the goddesses. To maintain the form they have chosen they have from a higher dimension POV stand perfectly still (ie the apple Carl Sagan talked about remaining in one position relative to the plane of Flatland). But to explain all this in a manner that the average person could understand takes too long (see above) so they oversimplify 'maintain our mutilplannar postion in your plane of reality to "constantly regenerate their atomic structure". It's not exactly a lie because atomic structure as we understand it is only a 3d thing and what ever goddesses are made of it certainly is not matter as we understand it.

I should mention that there is Flatland (not to confused with released the same year Flatland: The Movie) which goes into this in more detail and also shows there are forces that could exist in these higher dimensions. For example, A Square get introduced to gravity when brought to the third dimension and in certain positions it could kill him.

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Also, it might be worth noting that Norse mythology has nine worlds.

Since Many Worlds Theory is part of Quantum Mechanics that is not a problem (which is why I din't even touch on it). In fact, there is nothing in Quantum Mechanics that says the other universes have to have the exact physical laws our universe does.