Just who is Ranma Saotome?

[WG_Writer]

This is just for a general discussion about what limits a change we can do to Ranma untill he becomes John Smith (Not Ranma)

In my opinion his curse is very important to the character. Perhaps a defining point of him. We know Ranma early in the series where his three signature techniques are not yet learned and also he doesn't use these techniques constantly in the series (Chestnut fist, Hirushotenha and Moko Takabashi).

Personality wise I feel that he needs to be self centered, selfish, over confident, but still caring enough to help others if they need it.


So in my opinion his signature techniques are not needed to define him. Anyone disagree?

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Saotome Ranma is a person who is frequently possessed by someone called "Takahashi Rumiko," to such an extent that one could say that his identity is not entirely his own (or, at least, not wholly independent). Sometimes his actions are noticeably at odds with his usual behavior, or doesn't seem to fit with his character, and certain traits that he started out with (notable or otherwise) are either muted or exaggerated as time moves on.

At least, I don't think we can really address who he is without also acknowledging the intent of the force animating his character. Trying to keep things within the context of the story itself will only lead to questions and conflicts that can only be addressed beyond the fictional side of things, given what kind of fictional story it is.

As far as "signature techniques" go, I don't really see how it would ever be a question of whether they define him or not; he's a martial artist, so he's expected to perform martial arts techniques in general. I would only note that he seems like a one-and-done type, by which I mean: if a particular situation doesn't seem right/ideal/appropriate for a given technique, it's not going to be used. That he uses any one technique with any kind of frequency is rather circumstantial.

[PCHeintz72]

Meh... this takes on many aspects depending on how you are defining this, as it whether you are asking in regards to canon, or AU fan fiction...

In any case I generally take a simpler overall approach when it comes to fan fiction rather than requiring it meet specific criteria or specific items be present or not.

Basically it boils to the following 2 questions: "Does this story interest me enough to continue reading? and Can I read it without cringing on how a specific author portrays the characters involved?"

I can accept a lot of scenarios as long as the above is true... but it has to be backed up by the story. A Ranma/no curse story for example is perfectly acceptable reading material as long as good reasons are given why the story has that. If the story or plot do not match the characterization or scenario as presented, it tends to fall apart and become unacceptable, at least for me.

If you want my specific opinions on all that is in Ranma.... then while I *could* provide a master document I keep for just such purposes, the last such attempt by me on this forum had the thread turn into a bunch of very aggravated members and mod intervention...

[WG_Writer]

I only ask because there are a lot of works out there that people state that the Ranma in it is not Ranma. I agree there must be a good given reason, but if you cut too much off of what we know then Ranma isn't Ranma anymore.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

The curse is an essential part of Ranma. I suggest that Genma is also, as backstory if nothing else. The Atomic Kid, for instance, has Ranma being raised by Duke Nukem. It's hilarious, but the protagonist is only named Ranma. He's an alternative to the Ranma we know.

Mind you, there was a Bet series called "A Worse Father Than Genma". Most of those Ranmas, too, were alternate-universe versions. Interesting, but the point was to get away from canon.

The choice here is between canon Ranma and fanfic Ranma. If it's to be canon, you need Genma, and probably Ryoga as well. There's a lot more room to alter hir in the world of fanfic.

[PCHeintz72]

The curse is an essential part of Ranma. I suggest that Genma is also, as backstory if nothing else. The Atomic Kid, for instance, has Ranma being raised by Duke Nukem. It's hilarious, but the protagonist is only named Ranma. He's an alternative to the Ranma we know.

Sorry to disagree, I really do not think it essential.

Non-cursed Ranma can be done reasonably good and still be fairly in character for the situation... I admit they are rare though.

For example, I quite like what was done with him for example in 'Horse of the Dead' by Vimesenthusiast

Alternatively... there are stories where Ranma has the curse but it is not even activated once during the main part of the story... say like 'Fifth Fiancee' by Jim Robert Bader.

Or stories where we do not even know if he has the curse still, as it quite simply never comes up, like 'Please save my heart' by Locke1

So how would Ranma having it but it not being used at all fall into your view?

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

So how would Ranma having it but it not being used at all fall into your view?

If Ranma never gets around to changing, he doesn't have a curse. It'd be like having the neko-ken on the Planet of the Dogs.

In any case, Ranma has four curses to deal with. In order of appearance:

Genma
Neko-ken
Interesting times (often expressed as chaos)
Jusenkyo

It was Genma, the First Curse, that provided all the others.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

If placing Ranma in the same kinds of situations -- as in canon -- is essential to keeping Ranma familiar enough with its audience, then I think that the curse is also essential. If Takahashi thought that having a character be half boy and half girl to be fundamentally important even before considering what would be done with it, such a characteristic shouldn't be taken lightly and discarded for frivolous reasons.

I think, perhaps, that some might be under the impression that maintaining an approximation of Ranma's personality is all that is required to keep him within the realm of familiarity, but what good is that if the circumstances don't allow him to express himself in that capacity, to an extent that we could identify as being more in line with his character?

Do note that Ranma being a martial artist is one of his main traits, if not the main trait, and his curse played some kind of role in a majority of the martial arts fights/battles worthy of note in the series. Takahashi didn't have to make his curse come into play in so many of the martial arts bits of the series, but she did, and if that were taken away then Ranma pretty much becomes a clone of countless other martial artists from other series.

Basically, if we don't want to mistake Ranma for a John Smith, maintain what makes the character stand out among the others. Ranma's curse is one such thing.

[PCHeintz72]

See... I think that is where people are making a mistake... it is too limiting a view and preventing acceptance of what otherwise might be some good stories.

Basically whom is to say Ranma cannot thrive under differing circumstances? While still remaining somewhat true to the baseline canon character... and leaving it to the author to explain why he deviates.

It is more for me not so much a list of what Ranma must have, but the mental leap to wanting to read and author explain *WHY* Ranma does not have or deviates from the canon list.

Take for example a Ranma pulled from canon just before Going to Nerima and since we are on this forum, throw him in Juban and lives in same building as Makoto, or perhaps in his Mothers house... By the definitions given here, he cannot be Ranma, as the same circumstances that allowed him growth in canon cannot happen here. BUT... I disagree, Ranma bumbling through friendships, growing in strength, discovering abilities and finding out secrets under such a scenario is in dozens of Sailor moon crossovers, some of which are quite liked.

How about a post canon Ranma, say in a story like 'On a Clear Day We Can See Forever'... A Ranma that is still Ranma, but canon events before a specific point are well and done with, and he now has a couple years of world hops, and gets drawn back into friendships and learns to live again despite his better judgement and despite adversity...

Or for a more recent epic... 'Desperately Seeking Ranma' by PixelWriter1. Now at 30 chapters and a 2 chapter prequel. Ranma and Kasumi have fled Nerima after a different end to the Wedding disaster, they've learned magic, and shape shifting... Ranma still has the curse, but plain does not need or use it. Yet him and Kasumi have maintained their moral values, grown, are sort of Magical Girl Police, and are well thought of by the community they live in under their pseudonyms... Ranma is still headstrong, arrogant, brash, and not afraid to tell others, even magical girl groups, how it is... Based on what I'm reading here, that would be a bad story and not being true to Ranma of canon, yet to be honest it is one of the better stories I've been following with Ranma in it of late. A crossover without it being a crossover, as the names of the magical groups are not named, even though we *know* just whom it was that had their nose broken and yelled at multiple times by Ranma.

Some of the most liked and desired Ranma stories of all time would be considered bad ones under criteria this limiting. How about 'Way of the Nijitsu' by Jason Wong for example? Both versions of 'Will You Be My Fiance' by Ammadeau also come to mind. Ditto for 'Careful Destiny' by Todd Hill where Ranma needs to relive everything over in a changed Nerima but no curse and tries to still make things as right as possible.

Even controversial ones would fall in this category. Heck, 'The Return' by Sunshine Temple would also fail to pass muster under this criteria.

Ditto some of the more extreme but interesting AU's, where the challenge is not so much seeing a changed Ranma, but more a matter of figuring how Ranma became what he did... Like one I always had hoped would be continued called 'Prices Paid' by Ar-Kaos... a utterly betrayed and abandoned Ranma, thrown to demons as a plaything, with his will raising up above it and vowing revenge once he escapes... and neither mortal form his past, nor manipulating gods, rogue demons, nor broken Senshi, will stand in his way....

I'm not saying everyone should like those specific examples I gave in this post and thread, or go in for the various themes in general... it is more a matter of not having a closed mind to them as good stories without even making the attempt merely based on some mental check list of criteria a character needs. By being this limited, you may well be rejecting an otherwise well written and good story... *THAT*, more than anything else, is what I am getting at...


EDIT: Really, for me the one to really turn me off is the presence of a past personality coming to the foreground... Like a past incarnation from the Sailor Moon Moon Kingdom. I'm fine with modern Ranma having access to those memories, but when it goes to switching relationships, loyalties, attitudes, etc... To me, that is character death, and then Ranma (or whomever) is to be considered dead. Perfect example : 'Progeny' by Jeffrey Vasquez I actually loved up until somewhere around chapter 7 or so... but then Ranma and Nabiki grew too much into their past selves... I actually consider both dead now.

[Spica75]

Do note that Ranma being a martial artist is one of his main traits, if not the main trait, and his curse played some kind of role in a majority of the martial arts fights/battles worthy of note in the series. Takahashi didn't have to make his curse come into play in so many of the martial arts bits of the series, but she did, and if that were taken away then Ranma pretty much becomes a clone of countless other martial artists from other series.

Definitely not a clone! He´s very much his own person with or without the curse added to the fighting. That his martial arts is one of primary parts of him, that i completely agree with.

Sorry to disagree, I really do not think it essential.

Non-cursed Ranma can be done reasonably good and still be fairly in character for the situation... I admit they are rare though.

Agreed, the curse isn´t a defining part of Ranma, but i think the way he REACTS to the curse, IS.

I suggest that Genma is also, as backstory if nothing else.

Genma is certainly a defining part of him, replace him in any way and do any sort of reasonable story from there, and Ranma is a very different person.

EDIT: Really, for me the one to really turn me off is the presence of a past personality coming to the foreground... Like a past incarnation from the Sailor Moon Moon Kingdom. I'm fine with modern Ranma having access to those memories, but when it goes to switching relationships, loyalties, attitudes, etc... To me, that is character death, and then Ranma (or whomever) is to be considered dead.

I have seen it done decently, but it´s rare and generally i agree that it tends to kill off the character once known as "Ranma" quite distinctly.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Take for example a Ranma pulled from canon just before Going to Nerima and since we are on this forum, throw him in Juban and lives in same building as Makoto, or perhaps in his Mothers house... By the definitions given here, he cannot be Ranma, as the same circumstances that allowed him growth in canon cannot happen here. BUT... I disagree, Ranma bumbling through friendships, growing in strength, discovering abilities and finding out secrets under such a scenario is in dozens of Sailor moon crossovers, some of which are quite liked.

That just isn't so. I haven't noticed any of these definitions requiring Nerima. Azabu-juuban would do just as well, as would Tomobiki, or any number of places. "Interesting times" isn't unusual enough to be tied to Ranma -- most every anime protagonist has that one. The neko-ken is useful as an odd facet to Ranma's character, but hardly required. But being raised by Genma (or equivalent) and having a Jusenkyo curse (strong preference for girl) are essential. Otherwise you're writing about somebody else.

[Konsaki]

What about the fics that are writen during the training trip before Ranma and Genma go to China? I've read a few which mostly revolve around the timeframe he meets Ukyo and receives the Neko-ken training.

Based off the qualification that 'Ranma needs his curse or he's not Ranma', is this younger pre-curse Ranma still Ranma?

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

What about the fics that are writen during the training trip before Ranma and Genma go to China? I've read a few which mostly revolve around the timeframe he meets Ukyo and receives the Neko-ken training.

Based off the qualification that 'Ranma needs his curse or he's not Ranma', is this younger pre-curse Ranma still Ranma?

He's canonical Ranma. Being a person is a process, rather than an event.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

See... I think that is where people are making a mistake... it is too limiting a view and preventing acceptance of what otherwise might be some good stories.

The mistake is thinking that this is about what makes a good story, rather than where the boundary for Ranma's character ends and that of someone else's begins. ^^;

Definitely not a clone! He´s very much his own person with or without the curse added to the fighting. That his martial arts is one of primary parts of him, that i completely agree with.

Are you kidding? Shounen characters like him are practically a dime a dozen without a "gimmick" like his curse. We could go into his appearance, but that's another issue entirely.

What about the fics that are writen during the training trip before Ranma and Genma go to China? I've read a few which mostly revolve around the timeframe he meets Ukyo and receives the Neko-ken training.

Based off the qualification that 'Ranma needs his curse or he's not Ranma', is this younger pre-curse Ranma still Ranma?

As far as fan-fiction is concerned, it's arguable what kind of person Ranma was -- exactly -- in his youth, so people can take liberties there. The thing is, the Ranma we know is not that Ranma. The one we're most familiar with is the one that moves into the Tendo's home, gets engaged, has a curse, and all that other jazz. So, while that younger Ranma is still Ranma, we don't know nearly enough about him at those times to use him as a basis in determining what amount of changes would unmake the image we have of him. If we did, said image would no doubt be largely based on assumption, which would make our task meaningless unless this wasn't a serious venture.

[PCHeintz72]

The mistake is thinking that this is about what makes a good story, rather than where the boundary for Ranma's character ends and that of someone else's begins. ^^;

Same thing really... at least to me... If I am reading a story about Ranma, if I cannot believe in that authors version of Ranma, then I cannot think it a good story...

Thus all the scenarios and examples...

Really, this is going to differ person to person. I know for a fact there are people on this forum that are far more accepting of a changed Ranma than me... there are tons of fukufics for example that to me have a Ranma so changed so suddenly it comes across as a parody of Ranma, not Ranma, and thus don't interest me. Even if they have tons of followers.

EDIT: The below is a quote form a story that has a Ranma that is changed... a different curse, a different background, no Nerima except one brief visit, a hardened heart and a killer.... and Setsuna knows he has been changed from her expectations, he is not what she was expecting, and is trying to size him up against the version the canon version the gates gave her:

...Now, it would have been only a year distant... No. She couldn't think of that now. Right now was this, here, with someone who was and yet was not the Ranma she knew. A Ranma, it was becoming startling clear to her, that was drastically changed, true, but bore fewer entanglements, while remaining the same fundamental person.

Perhaps his hands were bloodied, but could the Senshi claim else? She didn't speak on it, but Youma weren't simple, mindless, automatons. They too bore souls and destinies, hopes, and dreams. They ran counter to the Senshi's own, true, and their methods could not be tolerated, but the facts remained clear, if one had the perspective to see it.

They were warriors. They fought their enemies mercilessly, protected those that needed it, and killed their foes when necessary. How then, could she pretend to judge? Not, Setsuna realized, that she was. She nearly laughed at her own rationalizations, knowing well enough they weren't just for herself. Rather than focus on this very welcome opportunity,