Help with college stuff

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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:37 am

Spica75 wrote:LawOhki:Pretty much both mean that it's impossible to predict where it will be. Only that it can be found at it's current location. Once it's found then they just had to keep track of where it was at.


Unpredictable says you cannot predict it. Uncalculable says you do not have enough data to predict it or that something else is missing from the maths.
However, since neither actually specifies if this refers to margin of error or prediction at all, either could be read as inability to precisely predict.


Which means Nemesis wasn't following Kepler laws nor Newtonian or Einsteinian Physics. That should have sent off alarm bells. Nemesis not even following laws that have stood for about 4 centuries (1609 and 1619 to present day) should have sent up a red flag faster then a 25 car pile up at the Brickyard.

A descendent of Beryl who (supposedly) was totally human was given part of her powers from that Metalia thing but its not like anyone could duplicate... oh Wiseman. Crap :oops:

And assuming something similar to Sailor Saturn - Mistress 9 arc occurred in the Wiseman TL then they had another example of "normal" human challenging powers not their own.

Face it, the more we dig the more examples of dumb we get.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:02 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Maximara:The volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r^3. Assuming Nemesis has a comet like orbit that brings it near Mercury (0.3 AUs) to out to the outer edge of the Oort cloud (20,000 AU AUs) that puts Nemesis being anywhere in a sphere with a volume of 84,000 cubit AUs. So if Nemesis' orbit is so unpredictable how did they even know where in that mammoth sphere to even look?

You're contradicting yourself. What you're proposing is based on an orbit that can't be predicted, yet you impose an area based on that orbit even though it should have an indeterminable size. I never said the sphere within which it could be found was based on its orbit. You have to remember that they don't need its orbit to find it: it emits something that reaches Earth and can be detected.


Detectable at no faster then the speed of light. Also the sphere I am proposing is a worst case scenario. Assuming the Oort cloud is the outer boundary between what is in the solar system and what isn't all planets of the solar system would be within that 84,000 cubit AU sphere, somewhere.

Nemesis' energy trail would show where it had been and Kelper's three laws of the 17th century you would have an idea of what it would be.

I would like to point out dwarf planet Ceres was found in 1801 and was originally classified as a planet and later downgraded to asteroid in 1802 so the number is wonked in any case. (Haumea, Makemake, Eris were found after Sailor Moon was written)

Nemesis, the brown dwarf star, was suggested in 1984 to exist at 95,000 AUs and while we have found other brown stars none are any where this close.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Spica75 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:39 pm

Assuming the Oort cloud is the outer boundary between what is in the solar system and what isn't all planets of the solar system would be within that 84,000 cubit AU sphere, somewhere.


Oooh love the typo there... So perfectly placed.

84000 cubit would be about 38.4km. :mrgreen:

(Haumea, Makemake, Eris were found after Sailor Moon was written)


This is something i´ll just add as a general suggestion to everyone, go check on wikipedia or something just how many planets/moons/planetoids there are, because darned, there has been a LOT of additions since i went to school.

Face it, the more we dig the more examples of dumb we get.


Well, it never does claim to be "hard fiction"(ie realistic). :P

Which means Nemesis wasn't following Kepler laws nor Newtonian or Einsteinian Physics. That should have sent off alarm bells.


Probably, but there´s always the possibility that the only ones in the know see what they want or expect to see, and if something can be excused as something else interfering, it might be essentially ignored.
And of course, if something is clearly impossible, that to can get weird reactions from people who both should know better or even DO know better. Happens all the time in the real world.
Of course it much more rarely happens with things heavily involved in science, but it´s not completely absent even there.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:16 pm

Maximara wrote:Which means Nemesis wasn't following Kepler laws nor Newtonian or Einsteinian Physics.

You have to keep in mind that Nemesis had power over space and time. Also, there's probably magic involved as well.

So, its nature is not out of place in this fictional setting.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:12 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Maximara":Which means Nemesis wasn't following Kepler laws nor Newtonian or Einsteinian Physics.
You have to keep in mind that Nemesis had power over space and time. Also, there's probably magic involved as well.

So, its nature is not out of place in this fictional setting.


Power over space and time? Perhaps but not much because if it did Wiseman and company would have simply popped back to the 19th century and take over the planet.

Unfortunately magic tends to be writer wrote themselves into logical corner and so pull the 'it's magic so rules (and logic) go out the windows' card.

As I said before per Authentic Thaumaturgy that is garbage. Of course rumor is that Sailor Moon was only supposed to have what is the Beryl arc but it popularity resulted in more arcs at which point what little Thaumaturgic underpinning there was suffered from Superman Syndrome. Powers and abilities wildly fluctuated and you had two Crisis on Infinite Earths style reboots (Beryl and Black Moon clan).

Since Sailor Moon follows Plastic time rules (History is flexible and is subject to change) you still have paradox issues: Because Neo Queen Serenity learned of WIseman and the Black Moon clan in the 20th century as Sailor Moon and did all the things that led to the crisis then she is an even bigger idiot then Genma.

This is why plastic time is a sure way to royally hose your fictional universe's continuity unless you throw in alternate timelines.
Last edited by Maximara on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:54 pm

Maximara wrote:Power over space and time? Perhaps but not much because if it did Wiseman and company would have simply popped back to the 19th century and take over the planet.

How does that make any logical sense? That the amount of power they had determined where in the past they would go? That's ridiculous. Obviously their choice had nothing to do with that power, which we can't assume to know the measure of anyway; it was simply their choice. Well, it's probably more accurate to say that it was the author's choice, since the present time in the setting is where the heroines were, which wasn't the nineteenth century. Plus, the nineteenth century wasn't where Chibi-Usa had gone.

Since Sailor Moon follows Plastic time rules (History is flexible and is subject to change) you still have paradox issues: Because Neo Queen Serenity learned of WIseman and the Black Moon clan in the 20th century as Sailor Moon and did all the things that led to the crisis then she is an even bigger idiot then Genma.

Again, where is the logic to your conclusion? It's not a paradox to not change the future as it is known. It doesn't contradict anything precisely because she did nothing to act against it. The risk of creating a paradox would only be a concern if she tried to alter future events, particularly the kind that affected the past, which would have made Usagi aware of the future to begin with. So, she's not an idiot.

Look, it's your prerogative to have an agenda against the intelligence of certain characters, but you're going about it all wrong.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Spica75 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:05 pm

Maximara wrote:As I said before per Authentic Thaumaturgy that is garbage.


Oh please! A single book by a single author about a subject which is strongly contested whether it is real at all does not give you authority to make any kind of sweeping statements.

You could just as well use Pratchett´s Discworld novels as your basis of understanding for magic, as despite his parodious tone and style, he actually draws background from the real world legends and facts.

Or i could argue based on Ars Magica magic style as they also have a firm foundation in the legends of the real world. And so on and so on. Please, no blanket statements made up from logical fallacies(Argumentum ad verecundiam).
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:52 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Maximara:Again, where is the logic to your conclusion? It's not a paradox to not change the future as it is known. It doesn't contradict anything precisely because she did nothing to act against it. The risk of creating a paradox would only be a concern if she tried to alter future events, particularly the kind that affected the past, which would have made Usagi aware of the future to begin with. So, she's not an idiot.


The problem is that effectively creates a time loop which itself is a predestination (free lunch) paradox. The Archmage in Gargoyles is a example of such a time loop paradox but time travel in the Gargoyles reality is fixed time (past, present, and future are unchangeable)

I should mention that Sailor Moon already changed events with her wish to be a normal girl. In the anime it is implied the events in the Beryl arc never happened thanks to the wish which has its own set of issues. IIRC when Small Lady returns to her present it is implied that those events didn't happened either.

Of course as I have said before time travel can be the bane of a story if you are not consistent about it and Sailor Moon isn't.

The anime strongly indicates history was already changed in some faction. The old (Probably A Stupid) Question on the Great Freeze thread went over the mess things are in.

Based on my research it seems that making Princess Snow Kaguya (Sailor Moon S: The Movie) the cause of the Great Freeze is the least problematic.

The timeline Wiseman and Wicked Lady belong to is the product of a 2002 Usenet thread called "Sailor Moon and historical tampering": The general gist was that there had to be "original" timeline and what we saw in the anime was a new timeline resulting from interference of the time travelers. That original timeline as best can be determined is:

Sailor Moon R 47-59 only with a lull for the period covered by 60-89 (ie NO Black Moon Clan saga)

Sailor Moon S 90-111 with no Chubiusa as well as Uranus and Neptune dying and staying dead

Sailor Moon S: The Movie ends with Princess Snow Kaguya freezing the Earth (the Great Freeze)

Sailor Moon defeats Pharaoh 90 but only after it kills 90 percent of the people on the planet. Sailor Saturn dies in this battle as well.

Sailor Moon becomes Neo-Queen Serenity after thawing what is left of the world's population and then decides to Cleanse people resulting in the rebellion that ends in the exile of what will become the Black Moon Clan.

ChubiUsa is born and lives 900 years until she goes back in time (Sailor Moon R anime memorial)
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:42 am

...Once again, the anime is irrelevant to the circumstances that we were discussing, which happen in the manga.

Maximara wrote:The problem is that effectively creates a time loop which itself is a predestination (free lunch) paradox.

Not as far as I can tell. The Black Moon failed to change the future in any significant way by messing around in the past, and their opposition going to the future to end the problem there, instead of preventing it from even happening, also means that the events are linear, not looping to maintain events that can't be changed. At exactly what point does anyone do anything where what they try to change is impossible because the event in question wound up being possible only because they traveled through time to attempt said change, thus making the event's existence wholly dependent on time travel? It would be one thing if a certain someone acted on their foreknowledge to try and change things, and failing because their attempt to do so was probably the reason for why the change was desired in the first place, but it's another for events to play out without acting on that knowledge, which seems to be the case.

Also, I doubt that's how things operate in the series. Chibi-Usa disappeared immediately when Mamoru was pushed into the Galaxy Cauldron. We know he lives on after that, so wouldn't a predestination paradox mean that Chibi-Usa wouldn't have disappeared like that?
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:25 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:...Once again, the anime is irrelevant to the circumstances that we were discussing, which happen in the manga.

Maximara:The problem is that effectively creates a time loop which itself is a predestination (free lunch) paradox.

Not as far as I can tell. The Black Moon failed to change the future in any significant way by messing around in the past, and their opposition going to the future to end the problem there, instead of preventing it from even happening, also means that the events are linear, not looping to maintain events that can't be changed. At exactly what point does anyone do anything where what they try to change is impossible because the event in question wound up being possible only because they traveled through time to attempt said change, thus making the event's existence wholly dependent on time travel? It would be one thing if a certain someone acted on their foreknowledge to try and change things, and failing because their attempt to do so was probably the reason for why the change was desired in the first place, but it's another for events to play out without acting on that knowledge, which seems to be the case.


But the whole thing depends on them NOT doing anything despite knowing how things turn out. For Sailor Moon to fight Wiseman Neo Queen Serenity must let all the events that lead to Wiseman going back in time happen. Otherwise as I suggested there must have been a timeline where Wiseman didn't go back in time.


Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Also, I doubt that's how things operate in the series. Chibi-Usa disappeared immediately when Mamoru was pushed into the Galaxy Cauldron. We know he lives on after that, so wouldn't a predestination paradox mean that Chibi-Usa wouldn't have disappeared like that?


This is what I mean about Sailor Moon being inconsistent. Chibi-Usa does the Marty McFly thing when her future is threatened elsewhere but here she winks out of existence; why?

Time Travel in fiction should have consistent mechanics and in Sailor Moon it doesn't. For example, in all the Back to Future movies changes to the present take time to be felt (as seen via pictures or newspapers) while in Star Trek all changes to the past hit the present like a sledgehammer. Sailor Moon tries to have it both ways and total hoses its time travel mechanics in the process.

It was like DC when they still had Crisis as part of continuity; in the Post Crisis reality things were a total shambles and every time someone mentioned either Hawkman or the Legion of Super Heroes the migraines began. Sailor Moon has exactly the same problem with Beryl and Wiseman is the cherry on the time travel snafu sundae.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:16 am

Maximara wrote:But the whole thing depends on them NOT doing anything despite knowing how things turn out. For Sailor Moon to fight Wiseman Neo Queen Serenity must let all the events that lead to Wiseman going back in time happen. Otherwise as I suggested there must have been a timeline where Wiseman didn't go back in time.

That's not a paradox. It just shows that whatever changes may have resulted from the time travel -- if there was any -- didn't require Usagi and company to do anything differently. The paradox would result, instead, from knowing what happens in the future due to those who traveled in the past, then trying to prevent what they did in the future. If they still go to the past and do whatever would get Usagi to take the same preventative measures in the future, despite the changed circumstances in said future, it would be a miracle.

This is what I mean about Sailor Moon being inconsistent. Chibi-Usa does the Marty McFly thing when her future is threatened elsewhere but here she winks out of existence; why?

When did she do the Marty McFly thing? *Hopes you don't say the anime, since they're different continuities*
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:17 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:When did she do the Marty McFly thing? *Hopes you don't say the anime, since they're different continuities*


Summery of manga at comic vine:

"Now a fully-trained Sailor Soldier, Chibiusa returns to the future. While she is gone, Sailor Galaxia and her Sailor Animamates invade, killing Tuxedo Mask and all of the 20th Century Sailor Soldiers and taking their Sailor Crystals"

"In the 30th Century, Chibiusa overhears Super Sailor Pluto reporting to Neo-Queen Serenity about the events occurring in the past. She then realizes that Diana has gone to the past to assist Eternal Sailor Moon. However, when Diana, Artemis, and Luna are killed by Sailor Lethe, Chibiusa feels a pain in her chest and has a vision of her dying"

"Chibimoon and the Sailor Quartet arrive just in time as Sailor Moon, Sailor Chibi Chibi, and Princess Kinmoku are about to be burned alive."

Ok Chibiusa's Moon's father has serious case of DEAD but she is fine...uhhh HOW DOES THAT WORK?! Unless that pain in her chest was a Marty McFly like moment.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:45 am

Ugh. What a summary...

First off, Mamoru was the first to "die," but this had no affect on Chibi-Usa. It's only until he's dropped into the Galaxy Cauldron that Chibi-Usa disappears, and it's immediate.

When Lethe "kills" the three cats in Usagi's mind/the river, as she's in the process of making her forget everything, Chibi-Usa experiences the pang. This can not be a "Marty McFly-like moment" for two reasons: one, we can not be sure that they actually died (Chibi-Usa said they were dead when she and the Amazon Quartet went to Earth, before being transported to where Usagi and the others were, but this raises too many questions); two, there is no evidence that her existence depends on theirs, like it would with her father. Also, Chibi-Usa later describes the pain as one of sympathy from the pain coming from those in the past.

As for how it works: I suppose Mamoru was only mostly dead. (Yeah, couldn't help a movie reference.) After all, while his body was destroyed, his star seed was not. That can only be destroyed in the Galaxy Cauldron.

Now that I think about it, Pluto had something to say about destiny in the third story arc, which -- if I remember correctly -- suggested that things were destined to happen, but additional factors could change the equation, like the aliens (led by Pharaoh 90) that came from another dimension. If Chaos is considered an anomalous factor, destiny might become changeable with its influence as well. This might -- to an extent -- explain why things can both be changed, have a seemingly-permanent affect in the future even if the cause is remedied after the fact, and reversed.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:49 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:If Chaos is considered an anomalous factor, destiny might become changeable with its influence as well. This might -- to an extent -- explain why things can both be changed, have a seemingly-permanent affect in the future even if the cause is remedied after the fact, and reversed.


It certianly doesn't help that the anime totally dropped the ball on what Chaos was:

Sailor Galaxia: Is Chaos gone?
Sailor Moon: I think it went back to where it belongs.
Sailor Galaxia: Where it belongs?
Sailor Moon: Yes, back to people's minds (hearts?).

This make it clear that Chaos is a thing of the mind or heart (ie emotion) not of the cosmos.

Wikimoon states that in the anime "[Chaos] is a thing that can not be erased from the world as long as humans exist." Cosmic forces (like entropy) existed long before humans and will exist long after they are gone ego Chaos CANNOT be a cosmic force...at least as far as the anime goes.

It would also mean that in the anime all the forces of Chaos are a bunch of suicidal nut job because if they killed all the humans then they kill themselves. Is there anyone in the anime who isn't a total idiot or crazy?
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