Help with college stuff

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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:47 pm

Yeah, one of the cats mentioned an x-ray source when they were talking about the planet sucking in gas and light like a black hole.

As far as I can tell, "Death Phantom" wasn't revealed until later, in relation to Nemesis. First, it was learned that Wiseman was the planet Nemesis, then that Wiseman was Death Phantom, and each time there was a reveal there was also a bit of an explanation about it, so it's not surprising that it can be problematic to keep the names straight in relation to when and what perspective we're talking about.

Mind you, I'm still using the old Tokyopop translation, not the new one from Kodansha or one from online scanlators, so some details may vary.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:58 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Yeah, one of the cats mentioned an x-ray source when they were talking about the planet sucking in gas and light like a black hole.

As far as I can tell, "Death Phantom" wasn't revealed until later, in relation to Nemesis. First, it was learned that Wiseman was the planet Nemesis, then that Wiseman was Death Phantom, and each time there was a reveal there was also a bit of an explanation about it, so it's not surprising that it can be problematic to keep the names straight in relation to when and what perspective we're talking about.

Mind you, I'm still using the old Tokyopop translation, not the new one from Kodansha or one from online scanlators, so some details may vary.


I'm using the translation provided at http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60
and when you get right down to it is really not that informative. Quotes are straight from the translation provided above with my own comments and what is off about them.

"That is the planet nemesis. The tenth planet of the solar system."

OC: "Tenth planet?

"It is the fabled Planet of Darkness. With it's unpredictable orbit, its image was never able to be captured"

The orbit made it impossible to capture an image; nothing here about it being invisible in any way.

"From where it was expected to be, we managed to detect a large negative energy source. In that way, we were able confirm its existence long ago"

Ok here is where things go wonky. If the planet's orbit is "unpredictable" then how can you expect it to be anywhere? It could be like dwarf planet Pluto and out of the plane all the other planets are on. It could be like a comet coming close to the sun every so many decades or centuries. Or if you want to get really wild it could be 90 degrees from the planetary plane coming close to the sun every once every few centuries.

The volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r^3. Assuming Nemesis has a comet like orbit that brings it near Mercury (0.3 AUs) to out to the outer edge of the Oort cloud (20,000 AU AUs) that puts Nemesis being anywhere in a sphere with a volume of 84,000 cubit AUs. So if Nemesis' orbit is so unpredictable how did they even know where in that mammoth sphere to even look?


"But after sending one extremely severer criminal there several hundred years ago, it was closed off. Nemesis was left for centuries unexplored, a forbidden planet"

Things continue to go pear shape. They knew this planet was the source of "large negative energy" so they send a "extremely severer criminal there". What could possibly go...oh Doom Phantom, ouch. According to Our Liches Are Different at TV tropes 'Sailor Moon villain Wiseman/Death Phantom is heavily related to the Lich, being a powerful sorcerer with only glimpses of a skull to his true face. Taken even further in the manga when you learn the planet Nemesis itself is his Soul Jar. ' Real great genius we got here...NOT. :shock:

But they compounded this stupidity by then declaring Nemesis "a forbidden planet" for centuries. :roll:

"But in the Thirtieth Century, we began to look to Nemesis for its great energy. Just as we began to study it once more..."

Ok again things don't add up. Why were they looking to Nemesis for its great energy?

"Nemesis was taken by the Black Moon"

Ok, unlike the anime the Black Moon clan in the manga are not decedents of people exiled to Nemesis centuries ago. But you have rebel faction faction out in space that is out kill you but where could they get...oh that planet we were looking at as an energy source. Uh oops? :roll:

"They're a group of rebels. They are warlike people who have rejected our society of longevity. Many time, they have begun battles and killed many."

A little later in that thread we get more details:

Luna: "When did they battle with the Black Moon first Appear?"

KE: "Several centuries ago, on Earth in Crystal Tokyo. There was a person who revived the crime and murder that people had begun to forget. The Mad Dictator Phantom"

Ok here we have the "Mad Dictator Phantom" or Doom Phantom here and later were told when the people were just starting to forget again the Black Moon clan showed up with the same mark as the Doom Phantom had.

I'm sorry but if Neo Queen Serneity is stupid in the anime she and her friends are total morons in the manga.

Oh on Nemesis being self propelled I think that might be confusion with the Doctor Who tenth planet Mondas which was self propelled.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:13 am

Maximara wrote:The orbit made it impossible to capture an image; nothing here about it being invisible in any way.

I don't recall anyone arguing that its image couldn't be taken because it can become invisible. Nice straw man, though.

Ok here is where things go wonky. If the planet's orbit is "unpredictable" then how can you expect it to be anywhere? It could be like dwarf planet Pluto and out of the plane all the other planets are on. It could be like a comet coming close to the sun every so many decades or centuries. Or if you want to get really wild it could be 90 degrees from the planetary plane coming close to the sun every once every few centuries.

The volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r^3. Assuming Nemesis has a comet like orbit that brings it near Mercury (0.3 AUs) to out to the outer edge of the Oort cloud (20,000 AU AUs) that puts Nemesis being anywhere in a sphere with a volume of 84,000 cubit AUs. So if Nemesis' orbit is so unpredictable how did they even know where in that mammoth sphere to even look?

You're contradicting yourself. What you're proposing is based on an orbit that can't be predicted, yet you impose an area based on that orbit even though it should have an indeterminable size. I never said the sphere within which it could be found was based on its orbit. You have to remember that they don't need its orbit to find it: it emits something that reaches Earth and can be detected. All they have to do is look in the direction it's coming from, and unless the planet is extremely fast or teleports, it's likely to be nearby (relatively speaking) where it had been detected (which would depend on how far away it is relative to how fast the emissions travel). While my original example used a day, it's realistic to think that they could keep track of the emissions by the second, which -- so long as the planet doesn't exceed the speed of light -- would mean that the sphere within which one could find it would be relatively small even if it was assumed that it traveled at the speed of light and never strayed from one direction. (So, while they wouldn't know its precise location at a given time, they would have a good idea of where to find it.) The real problem would be its distance from whatever is detecting the emissions, but that can be easily fixed by following the emissions to their source. In fact, how they got to the planet could be as simple as doing that.

Things continue to go pear shape. They knew this planet was the source of "large negative energy" so they send a "extremely severer criminal there". What could possibly go...oh Doom Phantom, ouch. According to Our Liches Are Different at TV tropes 'Sailor Moon villain Wiseman/Death Phantom is heavily related to the Lich, being a powerful sorcerer with only glimpses of a skull to his true face. Taken even further in the manga when you learn the planet Nemesis itself is his Soul Jar. ' Real great genius we got here...NOT. :shock:

But they compounded this stupidity by then declaring Nemesis "a forbidden planet" for centuries. :roll:

This is assuming that the energy itself is evil, and there's no indication that it was. After all, even evil/bad guys can use the Ginzuishou's energy -- the supposed opposite of evil/chaos -- for evil; Metallia ate it up and grew in strength despite being Chaos.

Also, you're still confusing ignorance and stupidity. Well, if they're so stupid, tell me how they could have figured out: one, that Nemesis is Chaos; two, that the energy could only be used for bad things if it could be harnessed at all; three, a person with psychic abilities -- but otherwise human -- would be able to gain access to that energy after any span of time; four, that his spirit would stick around; five, that said spirit could and would combine with Nemesis; six, that he would be able to act beyond the planet in the form of Wiseman; seven, enlist and manipulate others to work for him; eight, make a surprise attack that pretty much crippled their ability to respond to the situation.

Making Nemesis a forbidden planet didn't compound anything. Obviously it's a difficult place to get to, so it makes for a natural prison. For all we know, it was technologically unfeasible to do anything with the planet, particularly in the economic sense, and only those like the sailor senshi could even get there. It probably wasn't a waste, at the time, to make it his prison.

Ok again things don't add up. Why were they looking to Nemesis for its great energy?

Maybe they are having some kind of energy shortage, or are on the way there, and they now have a means to harness Nemesis' energy? It's probably no different for the reasons why we go after oil, coal, natural gas and such.

Ok, unlike the anime the Black Moon clan in the manga are not decedents of people exiled to Nemesis centuries ago. But you have rebel faction faction out in space that is out kill you but where could they get...oh that planet we were looking at as an energy source. Uh oops? :roll:

What point are you trying to make, here? As if you can blame them for not knowing about Phantom's fate, who would lead the rebels to Nemesis.

Ok here we have the "Mad Dictator Phantom" or Doom Phantom here and later were told when the people were just starting to forget again the Black Moon clan showed up with the same mark as the Doom Phantom had.

I'm sorry but if Neo Queen Serneity is stupid in the anime she and her friends are total morons in the manga.

I'm not seeing the logic of an argument, here. What difference would it make whether they knew there was a connection with the black moon symbols, between Phantom and the rebels, or not? Although they certainly explored a connection, however pointless it was.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Cheb » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:22 pm

I must look into the original later on.

All of the above was based on the translation, but the translation is highly suspect.

Translators working on these mediums are often illiterate in the physics/science way. But one *cannot* translate without understanding. That's one of the problems with any translation. You need a translator who is educated in *both* the language and the topic he is translating. E.g. to translate, for example, a paper on water fleas from Malaysian, you need a man who both knows Malaysian and has some understanding of water fleas.

Otherwise even the names of the things involved may mutate into horrible bullcrappy abominations.

That's why I'm always very careful in using translated material to base any theory on it. *Especially* if the material is short and doesn't have repeated confirmations in the source.

Do NOT assume the translator had any idea of what he was saying. At least check his qualification *in this area* first. He may be perfect at conveying shojo feelings but know crap about astronomy. Or the other way around.

P.S. It's not uncommon for a translator on a tight schedule to just bullshit his way through a chunk of text he can't understand. Do not forget this.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Well, we use what's available. I think it's too much to overlook something unless it's obvious that too much of it is inaccurate. And in specific cases where the mistake is obvious, like when the translator used million instead of billion for the beginning of the solar system's timeline, we can make our own adjustments instead of being obligated to use the translation as it is.

Also, there's still the Kodansha translation. I wouldn't mind seeing that and comparing the differences between it and Tokyopop's version.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby LawOhki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:07 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Well, we use what's available. I think it's too much to overlook something unless it's obvious that too much of it is inaccurate. And in specific cases where the mistake is obvious, like when the translator used million instead of billion for the beginning of the solar system's timeline, we can make our own adjustments instead of being obligated to use the translation as it is.

Also, there's still the Kodansha translation. I wouldn't mind seeing that and comparing the differences between it and Tokyopop's version.

I have all those volumes, If you know the page I can give you what they translated it as.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:32 pm

I don't want to ask too much of you, so how about one part for now. Let's see... Okay, let's see if you can locate it based on Tokyopop's arrangement: volume five, chapter name "King Endymion," page 119. It's basically where King Endymion first shows them Nemesis.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby LawOhki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:45 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:I don't want to ask too much of you, so how about one part for now. Let's see... Okay, let's see if you can locate it based on Tokyopop's arrangement: volume five, chapter name "King Endymion," page 119. It's basically where King Endymion first shows them Nemesis.

Think it's volume 4 161 in these ones.

(images are kind of big and break the frames)

http://s15.postimg.org/keb6lrevv/IMG_20 ... 183801.jpg
http://s4.postimg.org/pze7bu6v1/IMG_20141205_183833.jpg
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:04 pm

Yeah, there's a big enough difference, although mostly through wording things differently. I wonder if the distinction between "unpredictable" and "incalculable" makes a difference... I mean, I suppose you can still predict it, just without the use of numbers. Right? :?

There are a few more details, too. One of them was one of the things that I had proposed to explain their behavior, since here they say they were trying to make use of the planet, and over a long period of time. Since they couldn't, it wasn't a waste to put the planet to use as a prison until they could get back around to it and trying again.

It basically looks like the Tokyopop translator minced words, so you had to read in between the lines to fully understand what was being said.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Cheb » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:48 pm

Interesting, was he banished there, or was he simply banished from Earth to outer space, and chose to go there?

Anyways, will use dictionary on this tomorrow. Good night.


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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby LawOhki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:00 pm

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Yeah, there's a big enough difference, although mostly through wording things differently. I wonder if the distinction between "unpredictable" and "incalculable" makes a difference... I mean, I suppose you can still predict it, just without the use of numbers. Right? :?

Pretty much both mean that it's impossible to predict where it will be. Only that it can be found at it's current location. Once it's found then they just had to keep track of where it was at.

There are a few more details, too. One of them was one of the things that I had proposed to explain their behavior, since here they say they were trying to make use of the planet, and over a long period of time. Since they couldn't, it wasn't a waste to put the planet to use as a prison until they could get back around to it and trying again.

Well it's more that they sent him there to die, not like a prison. It was supposed to be a death penalty.

Usagi will deport your ass to a lifeless rock to die! :twisted:
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:18 pm

Now that I think about it, it's kind of odd to not be able to kill someone personally yet get the same result through not-so-indirect means, as if that makes a difference. XD;;
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Cheb » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:52 am

---------- row 1

ー惑星ネメシス
wakusei NEMESISU
[planet] [duh :)]

太陽系の
taiyoukei no
[solar system] [backwards "of"]

第十惑星
daiju wakusei
[tenth] [planet]

...planet Nemesis, tenth planet of the Solar system

--- the Senshi echo:
第十惑星!?

...tenth planet?!

----------- row 2

斬道が計算不能で
kidou ga keisen funou de
[orbit] [previous word is subject] [calculation/reckoning] [incompetency/inefficiency/impossibility/weak point/ imbecility] [?]

その存在を
sono sonzai o
[its] [existence] [(I'm unsure, maybe declares the previous word as subject?)]

とらえることが
toraeru koto ga
[perceive/catch sight of] [?]

(I think the entire part above is a compound statement)

ずっとできなかった
zutto dekinakatta
[consecutively/throughout/a lot] [able] [NOT (there are also subtler nuances that fly over my head)]


幻の暗黒惑星だ
maborosi no ankoku wakusei da
[phantom/vision/illusion/dream] [backwards "of"] [darkness] [planet] [exclamation/emphasis]


To calculate its orbit, to confirm its existence, to detect it visually, was not possible for a long time.
It's a darkness phantom planet!


----Usagi's thoughts echo
暗黒惑星......

Darkness planet...


ahhhh... Imma so tired :(((( Will continue later.

But you see it now? English relies so much on lots of unnecessary words to hold the grammar together that when you translate from a language free from such litter, like Japanese, *a lot* of white noise is introduced. When nitpicking over something translated from Japanese, you tread treacherous ground indeed.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Maximara » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:39 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:Yeah, there's a big enough difference, although mostly through wording things differently. I wonder if the distinction between "unpredictable" and "incalculable" makes a difference... I mean, I suppose you can still predict it, just without the use of numbers. Right? :?


Not effectively. Mathmatics makes predicting things a lot easier so the King is still talking rubbish. Remember in the real world people were able to predict where Newtonian physics said there should be planets. These methods resulted in the discovery of Neptune so when they also suggested a planet between Mercury and the Sun the hunt was on and said planet was thought to be found with its distance from the sun, mass, density, and even if it was tide locked predicted. Now both those calculations and prediction turned out to be wrong but they were still doable.


I love this though

斬道が計算不能で
kidou ga keisen funou de
[orbit] [previous word is subject] [calculation/reckoning] [incompetency/inefficiency/impossibility/weak point/ imbecility] [?]

incompetent, inefficient, and imbecilic...sounds like a perfect description of Crystal Tokyo's rulers. :lol:


Though I have to wonder if Death Phantom is based on DC's Time Trapper who may be an inversion of the protagonist Galos Gann in Edmond Hamilton short story, "In the World's Dusk" Weird Tales 1936.

"Galos Gann, the last living human being is a withered figure, cloaked entirely in robes, who sits brooding in a towering hall in the desert wastelands of the Earth in the distant future. Gann uses his super-scientific knowledge to try to revive the human race, only to be thwarted at every turn: he returns the dead to life, only to find that they cannot propagate, and pulls men and women from the distant past to act as breeding stock, a process that drives them hopelessly insane. One of his resurrected subjects describes Gann's struggle against entropy:

The dead man said hollowly, "You strive against the inevitable like a child breaking his hands against a door of marble. It is the law of the universe that everything which exists must come some day to an end. Planets wither and die and fall back into their parent suns, and suns strike one against the other and are transformed into nebulae, and the nebulae last not but in turn condense into other suns and worlds that in their own turn must die.

How shall you hope amid this universal law of death to keep the race of man forever living? We have lived a fair life for many million million years, we have struggled and won and lost, have laughed in the sunlight and dreamed under the stars, have played our part in the mighty drama of eternity. Now it is time we pass to our appointed end."

Edmond Hamilton was one of the principal writers of the Legion stories of the mid-sixties, including the issues in which the Time Trapper originally appeared (Adventure Comics #317, #318, and #321). It is unclear if the character was consciously inspired by his earlier story, but the parallels are striking. Although many of the revelations about the Trapper's true nature were written years later, long after Hamilton's death, they only serve to emphasize the similarities, especially the ultimate revelation that he was originally a hero: Galos Gann, like Rokk Krinn, commits acts that could be considered villainous, but that are in service to a higher good."

In 1988 some three years before Sailor Moon even stared the Time Trapper was described as follows:

"All things have ended here, even those that never began. Dreams have crumbled to dust, and lives faded out of memory. In all the universe, it seems there only remaining energy enough to swirl the fragments of the past and abandon hope of the future... They called this the End of Time and pray it will not come in their lifetimes. They have called him by a 1000 names. He is Night, Death, Apocalypse, Eternity, Entropy, Time. To all that live, all that moves, all that hope that tomorrow will dawn, he is the enemy. This is his kingdom and its day has come."
century and even tried (and temporarily succeeded) in destroying the future of his greatest foes by changing events in the
Now doesn't that bolded part fit the Death Phantom to a 'T'? Also like the Death Phantom the Trapper focused on the 30th century but did tamper with the 20th century to achieve his ends.
Last edited by Maximara on Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with college stuff

Postby Spica75 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:57 am

LawOhki wrote:Pretty much both mean that it's impossible to predict where it will be. Only that it can be found at it's current location. Once it's found then they just had to keep track of where it was at.


Unpredictable says you cannot predict it. Uncalculable says you do not have enough data to predict it or that something else is missing from the maths.
However, since neither actually specifies if this refers to margin of error or prediction at all, either could be read as inability to precisely predict.
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