Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

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Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:49 am

I didn't want to derail the topic about whether Takeuchi read Lovecraft or not any further, so...

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The thing is, Takeuchi either doesn't know enough about time travel or didn't care enough to write her story according to either predestination or the conditions for certain kinds of paradoxes. One of the most evident examples of that, and proves at the very least that there isn't any predestination (in both the manga and the anime), is that the senshi uniforms shown in the second story arc/season, during Crystal Tokyo, are not of the super variety shown later on in the past. (Later in the past? Time travel makes you say weird things...) If the future were certain, then the senshi of the past would have seen their future selves wearing a different uniform, not the same one that they were wearing.

Zwzn wrote:The uniforms being different doesn't tell us anything since it's a matter of changing clothing basically, but I don't doubt that Takeuchi did not give temporal paradoxes much thought as the whole star seed thing does not mesh well with Code Name: Sailor V or early sailor Moon.

Okay, one, we've only seen the senshi return to a previous outfit style when a more powerful form is clearly temporary (which only happens when Usagi or Chibi-Usa assumes a princess or queen form, and for Sailor Moon's super form at first -- in the manga, at least). Their final transformation is two ahead of the one shown in the future, both (super and eternal) of which were clearly permanent forms. Any reason for them to assume a weaker form (especially in the anime, since it would have made the barrier all that more effective) in the future would be supposition, not fact. Two, you contradicted your own argument: if the mechanics change, then so too does the context of the future. There's no way the future of the series can remain the same if something fundamental about it is changed. The key word here being "changed," as in not the same, or deviating so as to become different.

Pluto in the anime makes it clear by saying that she is there to ensure Crystal Tokyo's existence by causing certain events to happen meaning what happened. She seemingly did not know everything, but she had events she needed to make happen and did make them happen.

I'm not that familiar with the anime, but my past experience with you does not allow me to take your word for it; you'll have to show me proof of that.

Though it's not really needed since this argument is also self-contradictory. By saying that Pluto has to take action to ensure that a particular future comes about, that means that the future we know is not the future that Pluto had known before she took action. Why? Because she wouldn't have taken action if she hadn't looked into the future to know that it would have been required. There's no way that she would have been able to guess exactly what changes she would have needed to make (or that she needed to make some in the first place) without being able to look into the future, and even then not without a way to test the outcomes before making a decision (and there's no evidence that the Door of Time works in that fashion). Which also means that anyone who can time travel has the ability to change the future. Why else would Pluto need to guard the Door of Time unless history could be changed, or a paradox could be created? Because there is no predestination.

There is also something called Parallel Sailor Moon as I recall which takes place in a non-canon future that is in a parallel universe.

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I generally associate parallel universes with quantum mechanics, which would also debunk predestination since it's based on possibility and not certainty. Or that the only certainty is that anything is possible. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The other thing is that the context in this case doesn't really matter, as the meaning to the statement is rather clear. Pharaoh 90 came from another dimension, making it an outsider, so of course it's possible to upset the natural flow of events when something new is introduced to it. And if that's possible, then one can plan and set things up for a particular fate, but with all plans there is always the possibility that it will fail, or at least deviate a bit in delivery or result because of something unexpected. Which is exactly how it was for Pluto and the other outer senshi, because Saturn wasn't supposed to be reborn.

Either way, we've strayed from the topic, so...

Zwzn wrote:Sailor Uranus and Neptune are good fighters, but are total idiots who think they know a lot more then they do.

Sailor Pluto rarely if ever left her post until the Dark Moon arc making her a poor source of anything in the manga.

I fail to see how that bears any relevance to the fact that Saturn wasn't supposed to be reborn, which was why the outer senshi were active in the first place. If that unexpected change hadn't happened, they wouldn't have been present.

The events in the Death Busters story line were set in motion years before the Beryl story line. In the anime at least Hotaru was 9 when she was hurt, and things aren't very different in the manga. That means the Death Busters were part of the canon time line before the Beryl arc. That means the Death Busters were part of the time line that leads to Crystal Tokyo.

Dimension can mean a lot of things depending on the context, and who uses the word. One must also take into account the speaker may be wrong, the author incorrectly using words, or something might have been lost in translation.

In the end we are left with the Death Busters, Dead Moon Circus, and Galaxia as being part of the time line that leads to Crystal Tokyo before Code Name Sailor V even begins because they were all active in the canon universe before the start of the series. Any changes they may have caused to the time line had to have been made before the series started.

I think the author was most likely making it up as she went along after a certain point as happens with many long running series, and not thinking things through carefully.

You know, aside from your argument about the use of "dimension" being extremely weak, just because something is present doesn't mean it has yet taken any action that would affect the future. Basically, if someone were to eventually cause a paradox, it shouldn't show its effect until it actually happens. According to your argument, the universe would have been nulled at its creation, because predestination would have set it in stone right at the beginning. If the Black Moon had succeeded in their plans, they would have created a paradox (which was not what they wanted), and a very obvious one at that. I seriously doubt that they would have gone into the past to do what they had to do unless they knew that it wouldn't be a problem. That means any changes they would have made would have created an alternate universe instead of a paradox.

Oh, and if you think that the most likely thing to have happened is that Takeuchi had made things up as she went? Then why are you arguing for predestination? There's no way things can be predestined if she didn't care enough to plan and organize her ideas so that everything added up to the same thing, which is impossible considering how she'd gone from relying on devices to transform into a senshi to using something innate like a star seed (or sailor crystals, as a senshi's is called). Even if the star seeds were presumably already there, what sense would it make to overcome the following obstacles before they can serve their purpose: the ability/technology to realize/notice that they have a sailor crystal, and the ability/technology to create the device.
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:50 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I generally associate parallel universes with quantum mechanics, which would also debunk predestination since it's based on possibility and not certainty. Or that the only certainty is that anything is possible. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

This is the "many universes" interpretation of quantum statistics. Each time an event happens that could go more than one way, all of the consequences happen, with each splitting off into a new universe. In that case, if Pluto could see these junctions, she'd be steering her world, rather than changing it. She'd decide which of the decision forks to follow.

Or at least one Pluto would. The others would notice that they took the wrong turn at the junction, and try to figure out how to get back to the universe they wanted.
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:25 pm

So there is more than one interpretation?
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:12 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:So there is more than one interpretation?

Oh, there are quite a few interpretations. I'm old-fashioned, and follow the Copenhagen interpretation. Einstein was never happy with quantum mechanics -- "God does not throw dice with the universe" he said. Figured we simply didn't have enough information about the system, but if we knew more, we could see things were deterministic after all. That grew up to be the Hidden Variables interpretation. But I'm forty years out of date on quantum mechanics, so who knows what wonders they've sneaked past us since then?
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:58 pm

Usually when I hear about quantum mechanics, the name Michio Kaku comes up.
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Zwzn » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:38 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Okay, one, we've only seen the senshi return to a previous outfit style when a more powerful form is clearly temporary (which only happens when Usagi or Chibi-Usa assumes a princess or queen form, and for Sailor Moon's super form at first -- in the manga, at least). Their final transformation is two ahead of the one shown in the future, both (super and eternal) of which were clearly permanent forms. Any reason for them to assume a weaker form (especially in the anime, since it would have made the barrier all that more effective) in the future would be supposition, not fact.
1) You are assuming that the Sailor Senshi from Crystal Tokyo are in a weaker form, and not some unknown more powerful form.

2) You are assuming that the Crystal Tokyo senshi are not using some sort of disguise. We know the senshi have disguise devices.

3) You are assuming that the senshi can stay at Super or Eternal indefinitely. They had what they needed to reach these forms back before Beryl's attack, but did not use them, right?

4) We don't know if the senshi gave their higher forms to other people. Usagi had to give up power in order to empower Chibi-Usa.

5) It's actually stated in the anime that the inner senshi try to limit collateral damage from their attacks when they fight Jadeite at the airport, and the inners also had the palace in Crystal Tokyo helping them.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Two, you contradicted your own argument: if the mechanics change, then so too does the context of the future. There's no way the future of the series can remain the same if something fundamental about it is changed. The key word here being "changed," as in not the same, or deviating so as to become different.
I was pointing out that the author was not very consistent with how senshi powers work, and if something as simple as that could be botched then something as complex as temporal paradoxes is likely to be inconsistent.


Crescent Pulsar R wrote: 'm not that familiar with the anime, but my past experience with you does not allow me to take your word for it; you'll have to show me proof of that.
Season 3 Episode 112 wrote:

Subtitles
Pluto: If that happens, the future will change as well, of course.

Ami: Setsuna, you came here from the future to tell us about that, right?

Pluto: Yes...

Dub
Pluto: And that means, the future as we have known won't come to be.

Ami: So, you've come from the future to prevent the purity chalace getting into the wrong hands?

Pluto: Yes...
Pluto is there to do certain things in the anime. We even see her wanting to do things differently at times. It's a predestine paradox and unlike Chibi-Usa she knows it.

This is the transcript for the Dub: http://www.sailorsystem.com/transcripts/smcc105.txt

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Though it's not really needed since this argument is also self-contradictory. By saying that Pluto has to take action to ensure that a particular future comes about, that means that the future we know is not the future that Pluto had known before she took action. Why? Because she wouldn't have taken action if she hadn't looked into the future to know that it would have been required. There's no way that she would have been able to guess exactly what changes she would have needed to make (or that she needed to make some in the first place) without being able to look into the future, and even then not without a way to test the outcomes before making a decision (and there's no evidence that the Door of Time works in that fashion). Which also means that anyone who can time travel has the ability to change the future. Why else would Pluto need to guard the Door of Time unless history could be changed, or a paradox could be created? Because there is no predestination.
Pluto in the anime is sent backwards in time like Chibi-Usa is by Neo-Queen Serenity of Crystal Tokyo after having been given orders as to what she is suppose to do.

In the anime Chibi-Usa's orders in season 3 are to go make a friend. We then see that do to Chibi-Usa trying to find an easy mark she inadvertently leads the inner senshi to Death Buster attacks even after she finds someone she thinks would be an easy mark(Hotaru).

Pluto is sent back in time in season 3 in order to do certain things, and inadvertently cause things to happen.

The Gates of Time and Space in season 2 are stated to be able to take you to any where and any when in the universe. The big problem it seems is that you have to have keep thinking about the time and place you want to end up at

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I generally associate parallel universes with quantum mechanics, which would also debunk predestination since it's based on possibility and not certainty. Or that the only certainty is that anything is possible. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Well it is a parallel universe to the one the series takes place in, and points to a completely different set of events happening in that universe.
http://mangastyle.net/parallel-sailormoon-manga/

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: I fail to see how that bears any relevance to the fact that Saturn wasn't supposed to be reborn, which was why the outer senshi were active in the first place. If that unexpected change hadn't happened, they wouldn't have been present.

There is no way for manga Pluto, Uranus and Neptune to have known what Saturn was suppose to do, or what path leads to Crystal Tokyo, and since Chibi-Usa from the Dark Moon arc was there we can assume the events of the manga death Busters arc were in fact suppose to happen as they did.

As far as I can tell in both the anime and and manga Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto only really know Saturn by her reputation, and barely remembering seeing her in action maybe once in the manga.

Saturn being a part of Uranus, Neptune, and PLuto's team is one of the biggest plot holes in the series, and season 5 suffered from character bloat anyway.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: You know, aside from your argument about the use of "dimension" being extremely weak,
Ignoring the problems of translating Japanese to English dimension can mean a lot of things in fiction.

A way of moving.
We are about 3.5 dimensional beings according to some. We would be 4 dimensional if we could move backwards in time rather then just forwards in time.
There are at least 6 dimensions in the universe according to string theory.

An alternate universe
Dimension is often used by authors to describe an alien universe.

A parallel time line
The word dimension is used to describe parallel time lines in works of fiction.

A warped area of space/time that is bigger on the inside then the outside
These are often called pocket dimensions, and are often used for storage or prisons in fiction.

All of the above may apply to where Pharaoh 90 was, or the speaker could be wrong, and Pharaoh 90 might have just been light years away. All we know is Pharaoh 90 came through a wormhole of sorts.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: just because something is present doesn't mean it has yet taken any action that would affect the future. Basically, if someone were to eventually cause a paradox, it shouldn't show its effect until it actually happens. According to your argument, the universe would have been nulled at its creation, because predestination would have set it in stone right at the beginning. If the Black Moon had succeeded in their plans, they would have created a paradox (which was not what they wanted), and a very obvious one at that. I seriously doubt that they would have gone into the past to do what they had to do unless they knew that it wouldn't be a problem. That means any changes they would have made would have created an alternate universe instead of a paradox.
Actually as soon as Pharaoh 90's minions arrived there would be an instant change to Crystal Tokyo since all the events of the series are Crystal Tokyo's past. No matter how you spin it the Death Busters were effecting events just by being there before the series started, and then ultimately summoning their master happens before Crystal Tokyo is created.

When the Black Moon and Chibi-Usa traveled to does not change the Death Busters were there already, and the summoning of Pharaoh 90 was months away, and already part of their past. The Black Moon arc starts hundreds of years after Pharaoh 90 was summoned.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Oh, and if you think that the most likely thing to have happened is that Takeuchi had made things up as she went? Then why are you arguing for predestination? There's no way things can be predestined if she didn't care enough to plan and organize her ideas so that everything added up to the same thing,
Takeuchi as I understand it the author had planed arcs 1 and 2, and then continued the predestined paradox until arc 5, but there are things in arc 5 that don't even mesh with arc 4.

You're sure the 4th and or 5th arcs aren't just dreams? The series makes much more sense if you ignore the 5th arc.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: which is impossible considering how she'd gone from relying on devices to transform into a senshi to using something innate like a star seed (or sailor crystals, as a senshi's is called). Even if the star seeds were presumably already there, what sense would it make to overcome the following obstacles before they can serve their purpose: the ability/technology to realize/notice that they have a sailor crystal, and the ability/technology to create the device.
Sailor Crystals are innate, the senshi all gain their Sailor Crystals from outside sources.

Minako was given her Sailor Crystal by Artemis wasn't she?

Rei was given her Sailor Crystal by her pet crows/ravens Phobos and Demos?

Sailor Moon was given her Sailor Crystal by Queen Serenity, and it had been around before she was even born as Princess Serenity.

Tuxido Mask had to go find his Sailor Crystal.
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:27 pm

Since you kept poking holes in your own argument and hardly any in mine, I think I can leave it at that.

One thing, though: those weren't the sailor crystals. (They're diamond-shaped things, which I believe were... rhombus-shaped? I think that's the name. Geometry's not my forte.) For one, they are the basis of all that exists, so being removed from the body means they wouldn't be alive, and thus an outside source couldn't have held on to them. In the manga, from what I remember off the top of my head, Mamoru's sailor crystal was inside of the golden crystal, not the golden crystal itself. (Which would make sense since the silver crystal is used by three people and Usagi is still alive when her daughter takes possession of it, even after it becomes the pink moon crystal.)
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Re: Of time travel, paradoxes and the like...

Postby Zwzn » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:03 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Since you kept poking holes in your own argument and hardly any in mine, I think I can leave it at that.
A predestine paradox is when someone from the future travels to their past, and causes the events that lead to their present. You have failed to show that Chibi-usa ever stopped existing even when she disappeared like you claim.


Crescent Pulsar R wrote: One thing, though: those weren't the sailor crystals. (They're diamond-shaped things, which I believe were... rhombus-shaped? I think that's the name. Geometry's not my forte.) For one, they are the basis of all that exists, so being removed from the body means they wouldn't be alive, and thus an outside source couldn't have held on to them. In the manga, from what I remember off the top of my head, Mamoru's sailor crystal was inside of the golden crystal, not the golden crystal itself. (Which would make sense since the silver crystal is used by three people and Usagi is still alive when her daughter takes possession of it, even after it becomes the pink moon crystal.)
Any character walking around without a star seed makes no sense as they are presented in arc 6 since arc 6 shows the removal of star seeds kills the owner, and that the star seed contains the owners mind and life energy.
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"Moon Power: Transform!! Ahh...What is...this...?! I feel liberated! I'm overflowing with power!!"
Sailor Senshiness is an artificial state, and that is canon. If Sailor Senshiness was the senshi's natural state then Minako would have simply been donning armor.

Minako is also shown to have a cresset Moon crest in a mirror that only shows the truth.
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