Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Discuss the Sailor Moon series in this forum.

Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Cheb » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:44 pm

This topic really interests me, what with SM-manga being borderline Lovecraft Lite and Pharaoh 90 in both the manga and anime displayed as an Eldrich Abomination (Shub-Nigga-something in the anime?)

But the answer isn't easy to find. So far google didn't help me, so I'm left with asking around if someone have seen a more definite answer.
So, did she know his works or not? :roll:
Proud owner of 1.5 kilograms of Germanium transistors
Cheb
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1393
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:08 am

Know of, or read? Because those are two very different things. But, if I had to guess, I'd assume that Takeuchi hadn't read anything of Lovecraft at that time. As far as I know, the third story was used to change the timeline by adding an unexpected event via a visitor from another dimension (because the second story had initially been planned as the end of the series).
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:09 am

I always got the feeling Maoko Takeuchi read palladium RPG books which are inspired by Lovecraft among other things, and just about any source you can think of for mystical things and horror, but the dates that they were both publishing might conflict making the idea impossible. At the very least they both seem to have been inspired by the same sources.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Know of, or read? Because those are two very different things. But, if I had to guess, I'd assume that Takeuchi hadn't read anything of Lovecraft at that time. As far as I know, the third story was used to change the timeline by adding an unexpected event via a visitor from another dimension (because the second story had initially been planned as the end of the series).

Wouldn't Chibi-Usa's unchanged existence indicate that everything was part of a stable predestination paradox?
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:41 am

I can't say that I understood exactly what you said, but if the English translation of the manga is correct, at the end of the series they're sent to the thirtieth century when guardian cosmos restores them. Which is different from what is said in the second story arc, where Usagi and Mamoru are crowned queen and king at the beginning of the twenty-first century (and thus Chibi-Usa can live for nine-hundred years). Also, Takeuchi's approach isn't predestination, since the condition of the future is relative to what happens in the past. For instance, when a senshi's sailor crystal was taken by Galaxia, they are incapacitated in the future. In Chibi-Usa's case, she disappeared from existence when Mamoru fell into the cauldron.
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:40 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: I can't say that I understood exactly what you said, but if the English translation of the manga is correct, at the end of the series they're sent to the thirtieth century when guardian cosmos restores them. Which is different from what is said in the second story arc, where Usagi and Mamoru are crowned queen and king at the beginning of the twenty-first century (and thus Chibi-Usa can live for nine-hundred years). Also, Takeuchi's approach isn't predestination, since the condition of the future is relative to what happens in the past. For instance, when a senshi's sailor crystal was taken by Galaxia, they are incapacitated in the future. In Chibi-Usa's case, she disappeared from existence when Mamoru fell into the cauldron.


Chibi-Usa's actions are never erased from history implying that they happen, she doesn't need to reintroduce herself ever time she appears, and rebrainwash people. If Chibi-Usa's actions happen, and the indirect results of Chibi-Usa's actions happen. then the timeline Chibi-Usa comes from must come to pass.

Correct me if I'm misremembering something, but the Pluto seen in the Death Busters arc, Dead Moon arc, and Galaxia arc is the Sailor Pluto who used time stop at the end of the Dark Moon arc and died correct? That would mean that for her to be there the Dark Moon Family has to attack, and chase Chibi-Usa back in time.

What is said by the Crystal Tokyo/Future Senshi in the Dark Moon arc can easily be a lie, but the Senshi still have the gates of time so they can just go back in time. We also can't be sure if the Galaxia arc actually happens as the Senshi could still be in the 20th/21st century while being trapped in a lotus eating machine by the Dead Moon Circus..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... terMachine

It doesn't make much sense to me that Sailor Cosmos would drop the Sol System senshi in the 30th century since they would have no money, no place to live, they would not know anything about the culture, they would have no identification.... I realize the senshi don't think much about forging legal documents, and brainwashing people(think about Hotaru and Chibi-Usa just going to school), but it still seems like it would just be easier to have dropped them in the 20th/21st century were they had come from since there's a time machine handy after all.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:09 pm

I don't know why I'm going to bother, but...

If all that is arguing for predestination, you're still wrong. If it were predestined, then anyone's death in the past would have absolutely no effect on their future selves: they wouldn't become incapacitated or disappear. Also, what Pluto says in the third story arc doesn't favor predestination, either: "That Saturn's soul has been reborn must mean the gears of fate have been thrown off somehow." Basically, a future is all but certain; it's never one-hundred percent.
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Zwzn » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:21 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: I don't know why I'm going to bother, but...

If all that is arguing for predestination, you're still wrong. If it were predestined, then anyone's death in the past would have absolutely no effect on their future selves: they wouldn't become incapacitated or disappear. Also, what Pluto says in the third story arc doesn't favor predestination, either: "That Saturn's soul has been reborn must mean the gears of fate have been thrown off somehow." Basically, a future is all but certain; it's never one-hundred percent.
Great now I have a cute picture of Hotaru dressed as a repair girl with cute little grease smudges on her face fixing a machine with the words fate written on it. :)
_____
Perhaps the quote would mean something different if the context it was spoken/thought was given?

As the quote is presented it appears:
Pluto believes there is a cosmic plan(fate), and that everything is pre planned.

Pluto believes some force works to ensure fated events happen.

Pluto believes Saturn is a tool used by the what ever ensures fated events to happen.

So, Pluto believes there is a script everyone is suppose to follow even if they don't know it, and if you try to ad lib you get smacked down hard by an unseen force.

Doesn't Galaxia actually say Saturn isn't there for her?
_____
I actually doubt the Senshi could have achieved their higher forms without Chibi-Usa's interference.

If you want to show that there is not a predestine paradox you need to show the senshi's pasts altering during the fourth and fifth arc since Crystal Tokyo is a major part of the Senshi's pasts, and Chibi-Usa caused many events to happen in a very specific way because of Chibi-Usa even in the fifth arc as i recall.

If I am correct that the Pluto in the third, fourth, and fifth arc is the future self of the Pluto who died using time stop, then Sailor Pluto would not be able to be in the 20th/21st century without the Dark Moon Families attack on Crystal Tokyo, and Chibi-Usa going back in time for example.

Am I missing some major peace of evidence that shows the past that was altered by the denizens of Crystal Tokyo being over written by a new past?

Otherwise Pluto and the other senshi are proof of a predestine paradox. I don't see what the big deal is. Sure it makes the later arcs boring to read because the senshi can't lose, but that is why we write fan fiction isn't it, and it also makes the series more appealing? We want to put our own spin on the basic setting and take things in a direction canon didn't go.

No Crystal Tokyo means no Dark Moon arc after all.
_____

Yes, I feel the fifth arc has all the fall marks of a lotus eating machine. So what?
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:09 am

The thing is, Takeuchi either doesn't know enough about time travel or didn't care enough to write her story according to either predestination or the conditions for certain kinds of paradoxes. One of the most evident examples of that, and proves at the very least that there isn't any predestination (in both the manga and the anime), is that the senshi uniforms shown in the second story arc/season, during Crystal Tokyo, are not of the super variety shown later on in the past. (Later in the past? Time travel makes you say weird things...) If the future were certain, then the senshi of the past would have seen their future selves wearing a different uniform, not the same one that they were wearing.

The other thing is that the context in this case doesn't really matter, as the meaning to the statement is rather clear. Pharaoh 90 came from another dimension, making it an outsider, so of course it's possible to upset the natural flow of events when something new is introduced to it. And if that's possible, then one can plan and set things up for a particular fate, but with all plans there is always the possibility that it will fail, or at least deviate a bit in delivery or result because of something unexpected. Which is exactly how it was for Pluto and the other outer senshi, because Saturn wasn't supposed to be reborn.

Either way, we've strayed from the topic, so...
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Did Naoko Takeuchi read Lovecraft?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:17 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The thing is, Takeuchi either doesn't know enough about time travel or didn't care enough to write her story according to either predestination or the conditions for certain kinds of paradoxes. One of the most evident examples of that, and proves at the very least that there isn't any predestination (in both the manga and the anime), is that the senshi uniforms shown in the second story arc/season, during Crystal Tokyo, are not of the super variety shown later on in the past. (Later in the past? Time travel makes you say weird things...) If the future were certain, then the senshi of the past would have seen their future selves wearing a different uniform, not the same one that they were wearing.
The uniforms being different doesn't tell us anything since it's a matter of changing clothing basically, but I don't doubt that Takeuchi did not give temporal paradoxes much thought as the whole star seed thing does not mesh well with Code Name: Sailor V or early sailor Moon.

Pluto in the anime makes it clear by saying that she is there to ensure Crystal Tokyo's existence by causing certain events to happen meaning what happened. She seemingly did not know everything, but she had events she needed to make happen and did make them happen.

There is also something called Parallel Sailor Moon as I recall which takes place in a non-canon future that is in a parallel universe.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The other thing is that the context in this case doesn't really matter, as the meaning to the statement is rather clear. Pharaoh 90 came from another dimension, making it an outsider, so of course it's possible to upset the natural flow of events when something new is introduced to it. And if that's possible, then one can plan and set things up for a particular fate, but with all plans there is always the possibility that it will fail, or at least deviate a bit in delivery or result because of something unexpected. Which is exactly how it was for Pluto and the other outer senshi, because Saturn wasn't supposed to be reborn.

Either way, we've strayed from the topic, so...

Sailor Uranus and Neptune are good fighters, but are total idiots who think they know a lot more then they do.

Sailor Pluto rarely if ever left her post until the Dark Moon arc making her a poor source of anything in the manga.

The events in the Death Busters story line were set in motion years before the Beryl story line. In the anime at least Hotaru was 9 when she was hurt, and things aren't very different in the manga. That means the Death Busters were part of the canon time line before the Beryl arc. That means the Death Busters were part of the time line that leads to Crystal Tokyo.

Dimension can mean a lot of things depending on the context, and who uses the word. One must also take into account the speaker may be wrong, the author incorrectly using words, or something might have been lost in translation.

In the end we are left with the Death Busters, Dead Moon Circus, and Galaxia as being part of the time line that leads to Crystal Tokyo before Code Name Sailor V even begins because they were all active in the canon universe before the start of the series. Any changes they may have caused to the time line had to have been made before the series started.

I think the author was most likely making it up as she went along after a certain point as happens with many long running series, and not thinking things through carefully.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 


Return to Specific Series: Sailor Moon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron