Seven Shadows Question.

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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:06 pm

Don't even...
Look, he started the engines. That requires more than just an on sequence. They aren't cars. His magic has to intuitively identify what to do.

That's battery on, APU on, fuel pumps on, engine starters, engine igniters, generators, AND thrust levers. Times FOUR. As well as hydraulics for nosewheel steering. And we do get a short clip of the aircraft controls manipulating.
If you're going to argue that his magic willed the vehicles to start up on their own, then he can just as easily will the vehicles to configure to fly. This 'he can do one, but not the other' argument doesn't cut the mustard.

Just admit it. He's a moron. All four of them were idiots. That's the only way they could lose to inexperienced children time and time again.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Spokavriel » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:20 pm

I'm saying that his fight can't be used as a clear indicator of that. And I was wondering about Beryl's orders not the generals intelligence. BUT the whole sequencing thing has me wondering. Do any stories where spells are used for a Necromancer to get a body moving again actually say the Necromancer has to be a skilled physician? Or does the magic ensure that the entity works as needed so long as the spell has the power to do it?
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:28 pm

I'm simply saying, if we use your logic. If the spell can start the jet's engines, it can make the jet fly.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby camk4evr » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:49 pm

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:Flying it safe when it's full of people, that's challenging. But it can be taken off, banked around, and brought slamming down into the tarmac.


Not when you're in a running battle and happen to be at ground zero.

It takes time to get an aircraft into the air even if there are no other planes landing and taking off. He then has to control enough to turn it around and bring it down on the senshi while dodging their attacks (and there may even be a limit as to how far away from the aircraft he can be and still control it). If he keeps the aircraft on the ground he can give up control for short periods without running the risk of losing control of it or of the plane getting too far away for it to be an effective weapon and he can use it as a shield or use it to disrupt the senshi's attacks. \this doesn't even take into account that to target the senshi he has to be close enough to see them which can be a bit difficult at night.

In the end it was probably just easier to control the plane while it was on the ground, as he fought the senshi, than while it was in the air (and, if I remember correctly, he still lost control of it enough to almost run himself down).

And before anyone says that he could just fly the plane from inside it and crash it into the senshi I will point out that 1) he was using himself as bait to draw out the senshi and would run the risk of them leaving if they don't see him because they decided his threat was actually a trick to draw them away, 2) they could readily destroy the aircraft before it hit them if he wasn't on the ground to draw away their attention, and 3) he'd still have to escape while ensuring the plane hit the senshi (not easy).
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby CRBWildcat » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:17 pm

2) they could readily destroy the aircraft before it hit them if he wasn't on the ground to draw away their attention


I watched the episode last night, and I wanted to point out real quick that Luna raised an awful fuss when Mars suggested that. I kinda have to wonder if the consequences of blowing up the aircraft (even assuming that they weren't close enough to be harmed by the explosion) would've been worth it, even if it meant killing Jedite by doing so.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:46 pm

I suppose, too, that Jadeite might not have made the planes fly because of power issues. You have to remember that he took care of all of the staff at a major airport, replaced them (the security guards, at least), and had to prevent any outside interference. (Considering the reason for why security was beefed up, an outside party would have been expecting status reports, so he had to have expended some energy to make sure they weren't alerted.) He even had control of the monorail that brought the girls to him and his trap.

But, then, was his plan truly idiotic? Not really. Convoluted, but not idiotic. After all, when did he ever have any difficulty with the senshi during a personal confrontation? Considering how the senshi fell into his trap spectacularly, he had every excuse to be confident. Even his plan had been working well...

Thing is, the bad guy isn't supposed to win. It's to be expected, so of course it's not spoiling anything by putting Jadeite's defeat in the episode's title. The writers are thus left up with one choice: how does Jadeite lose? Unfortunately, they chose for the heroes to come up with a plan of action that works on the fly (since they're too concerned about keeping the planes intact, even though having secret identities should have saved them from the responsibility of destroying them). Such brilliance, and after they entered the scene like clowns: not only did the senshi travel to and enter the potential trap untransformed, but the smartest one in the group is the one that initiates her transformation first, where they were to confront their enemy, as if said enemy wouldn't be there and thus not have a chance to watch.

If I had to choose, I'd say that the senshi are idiots, not the generals. Failure to win against the senshi shouldn't be a marker for idiocy because the senshi have god(s) (writers) on their side. Time and again we see the bad guy seemingly winning, with the good guys on the ropes, and in the end (often in the form of the Rose Penguin) they're saved and make a comeback to claim victory. Rather than have two intelligent forces trying to outsmart and outmaneuver each other, with the bad guys losing in a believable way, the heroes are god-blessed idiots pit up against god-damned evildoers who don't have a chance regardless of their intelligence.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Pusakuronu » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:41 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: The writers are thus left up with one choice: how does Jadeite lose? Unfortunately, they chose for the heroes to come up with a plan of action that works on the fly (since they're too concerned about keeping the planes intact, even though having secret identities should have saved them from the responsibility of destroying them). Such brilliance, and after they entered the scene like clowns: not only did the senshi travel to and enter the potential trap untransformed, but the smartest one in the group is the one that initiates her transformation first, where they were to confront their enemy, as if said enemy wouldn't be there and thus not have a chance to watch.


Not the best showing of anyone here. If Jadeite had just put a bomb on the train, he'd have won no problem.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:55 pm

Again, god-damned. Characters can't think to the same capacity as we do unless writers desire them to. Even then, if they're not supposed to win, they're not going to. At that point it's just a matter of whether the writers do a good or bad job of making the actions of the protagonists and antagonists believable. If all of our criticisms have anything to say, it's that they did a bad job.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Spokavriel » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:58 pm

Even if the whole train were made into a bomb the author would have to make the Senshi survive it.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:23 pm

Exactly. The same with trying to crash a 747 on them. No matter what the bag guy does, however clever or overkill, the good guy will think of the one solution, tap the unknown power, find something very convenient, receive the needed help, or simply pull a deus ex machina out of their ass. In this series' case, it's very obvious what the writers are doing, considering how many episodes the senshi get into a jam and get convenient help out of it because they're usually too incompetent to avoid getting into said jam, much less out of it.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby camk4evr » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:42 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I suppose, too, that Jadeite might not have made the planes fly because of power issues. You have to remember that he took care of all of the staff at a major airport, replaced them (the security guards, at least), and had to prevent any outside interference. (Considering the reason for why security was beefed up, an outside party would have been expecting status reports, so he had to have expended some energy to make sure they weren't alerted.) He even had control of the monorail that brought the girls to him and his trap.


I knew I was forgetting something. Worse yet this is an important one especially when you consider that Jadeite's primary mission wasn't defeating the senshi (until his final confrontation with them) but, instead, it was to collect energy so that they could awaken Metallia and that the Dark Kingdom could only spare enough power to send one or two agents to Tokyo at a time.
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Asuka:Oh please, Baka Shinji, that sounds like some cheap, pseudo-profound T.V. show. Low budget. Ambiguous ending.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:01 am

From what I understand (this is mostly coming from the manga, so I don't know if this is true for the anime), obtaining energy had never been a real issue. In the anime, at least, I believe that Beryl was overall satisfied with the amount of energy Jadeite had acquired. It was just a matter of being able to obtain even more than that, due to the senshi interrupting each of his energy-nabbing schemes (in addition to killing her youma, I'm assuming). In the manga specifically, the energy obtained went directly to Metallia, so the only energy each general had to rely on for each mission was their own.

That's why I figure it's possible that Jadeite might have at least kept some energy in reserve, just in case, because he would have needed those planes in the air before the senshi arrived (if he wanted to surprise them, not prolong the fight unnecessarily, and not risk his attempt at doing so being interrupted during said fight when they see what he's trying to do). Plus, we don't know how far he could remotely control them, and thus whether the planes could circle around an area at a distance where they could readily dive-bomb the tarmac. And I don't know how airports operate, so would those planes even have fuel in them? If not, substituting his energy for the fuel might explain why he didn't do much with them.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Spokavriel » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:17 am

Making the energy collection seem more desperate was part of the Dub.
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:19 pm

I know that getting the energy faster would have been better (the sooner the better and all that), but I don't think they were ever actually hurting for it, as if they used energy in conjunction to getting it. I could be wrong since my memory of the anime is spotty at best, and I had actually put an effort into forgetting the dubbed version. XD;;
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Re: Seven Shadows Question.

Postby Spokavriel » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:24 pm

One of the dub changes was the declaration that the collection of energy finally gave them enough to make a tracking crystal. Even though the same crystal was seen before in use... The Dub is painful if you try to make sense of the changes. Ask Setsuna. Oh wait you cant she's got a name I refuse to use there.
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