Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:17 pm

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I seriously doubt it, but I'll watch it sometime tomorrow because I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It's basically "loving father caught at a bad time, and taken advantage of".

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Both, I imagine. Their goal was to renew their energy and find a new place to live, so they were trying to take care of two birds with one stone.

I don't recall the Earth being what was interesting them. I never got the feeling it had to be Earth. It seemed like they were kind of just doing it for the evils.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: The Earth being special isn't a problem because that's the only habitable planet in that solar system. Plus, that's where the ginzuishou is, and its "brightness," as described in the last two story arcs, draws the attention of the "dark."
There is also the Moon in Sailor Moon which no one uses, and if you are going to xenoform a planet anyway there is certainly Mars, Venus, several Moon of Jupiter and Saturn also.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: It makes plenty of sense, and matches just fine. Takeuchi conceived Sailor Moon with inspiration from the sentai genre, so there's all kinds of sci-fi gadgets and technology in the series: such as some of their tools, their secret control center, the palace on the moon, and each senshi's castle. There's plenty of advanced technology, and that trend continues in Crystal Tokyo.

All of the senshi's things are pre-Beryl's attack creations, or from the far future. There isn't the tech on Sailor Moon Earth during the series to make a cyborg, and there may never have been the tech needed even during the time of the Moon kingdom.

For one person to have the technology to make cyborgs for no reason breaks SOD and a plot hole, and of all the things he could sell the prosodic limbs are likely one of the things everyone would want, but that would mean Ami would know know a lot about him.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Your opinion is an example? I can assure you that it is not impossible to hide the fact that parts of her body have been replaced. Where there's a quill (as it were), there's a way.

That can only be done for a short time, and if I'm not remembering fan art the limbs are to big to do more then cover with cloth.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: That's assuming that professor Tomoe would be forced to share what he knows, or was even interested in sharing it with the world to begin with. The thing is, he was far from being altruistic, and his research (and methods) had been rejected by his peers. The only thing that mattered to him was creating a super being, not helping the disabled or saving lives.

The prosthetic limbs are the perfect thing to sell since he has the perfect cover story, and they are so advanced that most people would be willing to not look to deep. Hotaru being hurt in a lab accident would be the truth, and his reason for making her the limbs would also be the truth. It's not like lab accidents on the scale of what happened in the manga don't happen in real life.

It has nothing to do with being a nice guy. It's just practical, and possibly the only thing he made that would not be tainted by his reputation, and may help improve his rep which can't hurt.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I'll only argue that the time that it would have taken is unknown, and saying anything to the contrary is an assumption.

We still don't have arms and legs that are anything close to Hotaru's to this day. It would have taken years.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I'm not complaining. Makes enough sense, to me.

You're just not thinking things through to their logical conclusion, but then the author didn't put much effort into making a good manga. If Hotaru's father can easily make a cyborg without anyone knowing then there must be other cyborgs walking around in Sailor Moon, but there aren't.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Size wouldn't matter. Pharaoh 90 would have become the planet.

That make the choosing of Earth over it's neighbors seem like it was just done on a whim.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: And I reckon that the Earth is preferable to the moon because of its resources.

And what resources are those?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: And the fact that the dimensional warping was there, not somewhere else.

That makes them sound lazy and stupid if they didn't at least look into the possibility. From what we see there is no reason they could not have just told Pharoah 90 to fly to a different planet.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Not necessarily. Especially if he had his own medical facility on the premises. It's just like tactical warfare: if you control your environment, you can control the tide of fortune.

He wouldn't have been able to design, manufacture, or in stall the limbs himself.

by bissek wrote: Also, I believe that Hotaru's wardrobe at the time was specifically chosen so that all cybernetic parts would be hidden from casual view. Sort of like how a complete stranger would not realize that Ed Elric's right arm is fake unless he takes the glove off or rolls up his sleeve to reveal the automail.
Which ignores the fact she interacted with the same people every day, and just covering her limbs would not be a perfect solution. There would also be people watching the Tomoes if only because they are rich beyond reason and young. Some one at the very least will touch her arm at least once.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: As I recall, and I'm going to need to re-read my sources since people keep disagreeing with what I recall, Pharoah 90 covered their entire planet. What was coming through the rift was an extension of it that would then xenoform the Earth. The Inners formed a barrier that kept it from spreading beyond the immediate vicinity of the rift. The need for the DDR was to send a blast through the rift that sterilized the planet on the other end, ending the threat to the Earth.

The Earth was it's target for multiple reasons, one of which being the rift that initially allowed its agents to land on Earth, and another being the fact that there were people on the Earth its agents could use to create the other end of the wormhole and stabilize it so that it could come through. Another possibility is that the Earth was larger, with a gravity level closer to what was desired, and the resources available on the Earth for use in xenoforming are vastly different from the resources available on the moon. For one thing, Earth has a molten spinning nickel iron core that provides it with a magnetic field that protects the atmosphere from the scouring effects of solar wind. The moon does not.

An idea I've considered using is that Venus would actually better suit Pharoah 90's needs. Once this is discovered by the Senshi, they make a peace agreement with the Death Busters where they harm no more humans and the Senshi use their powers to help Pharoah 90 xenoform Venus.
The problem with calling Pharoah 90 a planet is that it is smaller then Tokyo, and a life form.

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that the Moon in Sailor Moon is just as capable of supporting life as the Earth in Sailor Moon.

I don't think daimons really care about gravity. Lower gs may actually suit them better.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Wyrd » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:11 pm

That can only be done for a short time, and if I'm not remembering fan art the limbs are to big to do more then cover with cloth.


In the manga, I can recall one particular scene where Hotaru, under Mistress 9's influence, crushes something with her mechanical hand. This is a close up shot, and the arm does not look at all unusual. If anything, it is too thin, though this could be because it was fitted for her when she was younger. She wears long sleeve shirts and gloves that keep any skin/metal from showing.

The problem with calling Pharoah 90 a planet is that it is smaller then Tokyo, and a life form.


The manga shows that the influence of Paharoah 90 was rapidly expanding from the point of contact before it was stopped. That does not mean that what came through the portal was the entirety of the creature. If my spawning analogy from earlier were to be taken as correct, then what was coming through the rift was a seed/larva/whatever that would grow to cover the Earth the same way its parent covered its homeworld.

I believe the manga describes it as being a single living creature that covered the entire planet, with the daimons either being part of it or symbiotic creatures.

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that the Moon in Sailor Moon is just as capable of supporting life as the Earth in Sailor Moon.

I don't think daimons really care about gravity. Lower gs may actually suit them better.


The moon was, at one time, inhabitable. It also bore the brunt of Beryl's assault to the point that the only remains of a civilization that covered the moon were a few standing pillars that were once the supporting pillars of the palace, no atmosphere, and a buried supercomputer. That does not mean that it would suit the needs of the Daimons.

There is also the other part of what they needed--someone on the other end to hold the portal open and the power to accomplish it. Since the daimons were so set on using heart crystals, their technology may be heavily based on the manipulation of life/biology, making the available source of living biomass a resource that would override lesser concerns regarding the native's resistance to the invasion. In the manga they were experimenting on more than just people, with one of the first daimons to show up coming out of a cat.

As for lower G suiting them, their exhibited strength would suggest that they were either enhanced or that their environment on their prior world had higher G's than Earth.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Cheb » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:22 am

There isn't the tech on Sailor Moon Earth during the series to make a cyborg, and there may never have been the tech needed even during the time of the Moon kingdom.
For one person to have the technology to make cyborgs for no reason breaks SOD and a plot hole,

I think you are treating it wrong. You're not allowed to take things that seriously or go into that much detail. Ppl build a super-gadget, it works, end of story. You're wronged the genre itself. I'm frowning at you. :evil:

If Hotaru's father can easily make a cyborg without anyone knowing then there must be other cyborgs walking around in Sailor Moon, but there aren't.

He had access to the alien tech. "The wizard did it" justifies anything. End of story.
Oh, and I'm still frowning at you.

That make the choosing of Earth over it's neighbors seem like it was just done on a whim.

Umm... Didn't he just have to eat? Kind of envelop every living thing on Earth and digest them and *merge* with the planet, and thus avoiding its death of starvation? I remember SM saying Ph90 was "like black lava that reeks of death".
Imagine being swallowed by a hungry black goo and dissolved alive. :x Brrr :(
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Oh, Zwzn, Zwzn, Zwzn...

Zwzn wrote:It's basically "loving father caught at a bad time, and taken advantage of".

Yeah, I saw that. That's not "more logical," as you put it. That's a matter of personal taste.

I don't recall the Earth being what was interesting them. I never got the feeling it had to be Earth. It seemed like they were kind of just doing it for the evils.

And that's more logical? Just random evil? The manga has them there because they wish to survive, and Earth has what they need.

There is also the Moon in Sailor Moon which no one uses, and if you are going to xenoform a planet anyway there is certainly Mars, Venus, several Moon of Jupiter and Saturn also.

You're forgetting that they didn't choose the location of the dimensional rift (or whatever it was; I keep forgetting). Even if they had control over it, they must have had a reason to choose Earth. Even if we thought what you did about their reason for being there, with them being randomly evil, then where else would they be able to torment and kill things that would be able to recognize evil for what it is, and thus have an effect? Earth.

All of the senshi's things are pre-Beryl's attack creations, or from the far future. There isn't the tech on Sailor Moon Earth during the series to make a cyborg, and there may never have been the tech needed even during the time of the Moon kingdom.

For one person to have the technology to make cyborgs for no reason breaks SOD and a plot hole, and of all the things he could sell the prosodic limbs are likely one of the things everyone would want, but that would mean Ami would know know a lot about him.

Their secret control center is modern-day. Pay attention!

It doesn't break SOD or create a plot hole. Obviously you haven't watched/read enough of anything to know how common it is for only a few people to make scientific and technological advancements that aren't shared, much less known, by the public. Movies, books, American comics, manga, anime; you name it, there are plenty examples of some person being super smart and/or having technology so advanced that what the public gets pales in comparison. Just as some classic examples, that any English-speaking person should know about, there's Victor Frankenstein, Lex Luthor and Emmet Brown.

And you're still assuming that he would sell his knowledge regarding prosthetic limbs. Obviously Ami did not show any knowledge about them, so he, according to your reasoning, had not sold what he knew about it to the public. Like I said, he's not concerned about helping people: he's a mad scientist obsessed with creating super beings.

That can only be done for a short time, and if I'm not remembering fan art the limbs are to big to do more then cover with cloth.

Whoa there, bucko! Fan-art? There's your problem. Her limbs look realistic, to the point where she doesn't need to cover her hands. However, there are imperfect areas that expose the inner workings of the limbs, around the calves, a thigh and an elbow. But they are easily covered, even with tight-fitting clothing. So long as those areas are covered, she looks normal.

The prosthetic limbs are the perfect thing to sell since he has the perfect cover story, and they are so advanced that most people would be willing to not look to deep. Hotaru being hurt in a lab accident would be the truth, and his reason for making her the limbs would also be the truth. It's not like lab accidents on the scale of what happened in the manga don't happen in real life.

It has nothing to do with being a nice guy. It's just practical, and possibly the only thing he made that would not be tainted by his reputation, and may help improve his rep which can't hurt.

Your opinion and reasoning doesn't rationalize what professor Tomoe should, would or could have done. The fact of the matter is that there's no evidence that he sold anything of his research regarding prosthetic limbs. Even if he had, and people in the public began to use the same kind of prosthetic limbs that Hotaru does, it wouldn't make the prosthetic limbs any more discernible to anyone; especially if the person using them has them covered up. Which is to say that, even if Tomoe had been well-known because of the prosthetic legs, Ami has no reason to assume that Hotaru has prosthetic limbs, just by looking at her. (You do remember that part of the argument, don't you?)

I know someone who has a prosthetic leg, from the knee down, and I couldn't tell until I saw it uncovered.

We still don't have arms and legs that are anything close to Hotaru's to this day. It would have taken years.

You're comparing incomparable realities. Sailor Moon Earth is not Real Life Earth. There are plenty of similarities, true, but the mechanics simply aren't the same. In their reality, like in many fictional realities, sometimes there are people who progress well and beyond what is considered modern technology. If you can't accept that as being the reality of a fictional universe, then there's no hope for you in understanding how these things work.

You're just not thinking things through to their logical conclusion, but then the author didn't put much effort into making a good manga. If Hotaru's father can easily make a cyborg without anyone knowing then there must be other cyborgs walking around in Sailor Moon, but there aren't.

Your loopy logic never ceases to amaze me. I bet you don't even realize that you defeated your own argument. You say there aren't any other cyborgs walking around, right after you said that someone is capable of making one that no one would be aware of. Well, gee, maybe you're not aware of more existing because they're well-hidden, not because no others are being made.

Which is beside the point, anyway. The logical conclusion is that professor Tomoe is one of those special people in fictional stories that are capable of producing advanced technology with his superior understanding of science.

That make the choosing of Earth over it's neighbors seem like it was just done on a whim.

As was mentioned before, they had no control over where they entered the dimension from.

And what resources are those?

Look at the periodic table of elements and guess which place has a greater variety of those things, between the Earth and any other place in the solar system. And since their bodies are biological in nature, only Earth would be able to provide such diverse and complex materials, which go well beyond the basic elements.

That makes them sound lazy and stupid if they didn't at least look into the possibility. From what we see there is no reason they could not have just told Pharoah 90 to fly to a different planet.

And do you know what you sound like for not knowing the answer to this, yet assume to know what you're talking about?

I mean, honestly. Fly to another planet? What random evil could they do there, according to you? Would other planets even be able to sustain them, considering their atmospheres (or possible lack thereof), magnetic fields and complete lack of biological matter or whatever provides the energy they need from living things? This is assuming that Pharaoh 90 can fly, while also being unaffected by the vacuum of space. And who are "they," anyway? The senshi? They wouldn't do that. Pharaoh 90's servants? They do what Pharaoh 90 wants, and Pharaoh 90 wants Earth. Think, McFly! Think!

He wouldn't have been able to design, manufacture, or in stall the limbs himself.

Says who? You? You're hardly an expert on the matter.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:14 pm

by Wyrd » wrote: In the manga, I can recall one particular scene where Hotaru, under Mistress 9's influence, crushes something with her mechanical hand. This is a close up shot, and the arm does not look at all unusual. If anything, it is too thin, though this could be because it was fitted for her when she was younger.

Too thin describes the arms and legs of all the characters at at least one point or another. Every character in the Sailor Moon manga is an eldritch abomination.

by Wyrd » wrote: She wears long sleeve shirts and gloves that keep any skin/metal from showing.

Which wouldn't stop someone from noticing a major difference if touched.

by Wyrd » wrote: The manga shows that the influence of Paharoah 90 was rapidly expanding from the point of contact before it was stopped. That does not mean that what came through the portal was the entirety of the creature. If my spawning analogy from earlier were to be taken as correct, then what was coming through the rift was a seed/larva/whatever that would grow to cover the Earth the same way its parent covered its homeworld.

Then there is no reason for us to believe that wasn't all of Pharaoh 90 as far as I'm concerned, and that it just wasn't spreading it's self very thinly over the planet. The senshi would not have been able to contain Pharaoh 90 if it went down as well as out.

by Wyrd » wrote: I believe the manga describes it as being a single living creature that covered the entire planet, with the daimons either being part of it or symbiotic creatures.

Daimons clearly can survive without Pharaoh 90 or there wouldn't have been a Death Busters arc..

by Wyrd » wrote: The moon was, at one time, inhabitable. It also bore the brunt of Beryl's assault to the point that the only remains of a civilization that covered the moon were a few standing pillars that were once the supporting pillars of the palace, no atmosphere, and a buried supercomputer. That does not mean that it would suit the needs of the Daimons.

The Sailor Moon Moon would still have everything the Daimons would need since all Beryl and Sailor Saturn did was kill everything. The SM Moon has about 1G and still has an atmosphere since the senshi could walk normally and talk there.

Pharaoh 90 is basically an entire alien bio-sphere after all.

by Wyrd » wrote: There is also the other part of what they needed--someone on the other end to hold the portal open and the power to accomplish it. Since the daimons were so set on using heart crystals, their technology may be heavily based on the manipulation of life/biology, making the available source of living biomass a resource that would override lesser concerns regarding the native's resistance to the invasion. In the manga they were experimenting on more than just people, with one of the first daimons to show up coming out of a cat.

How many daimons arrived on Earth in the manga? In the anime there was only Germatod.

Even if they had to open the portal on Earth there is no reason the death busters had to stay on Earth after Pharaoh 90 came through.

Having to fight off the native life forms was a very big problem for the death busters to the point that Pharaoh 90 went back to where it had come from to escape them.

Native bio-mass would have to be broken down and reengineered anyway, and it would likely be easier to just start from scratch since Earth life forms are very poorly designed. Bio-mass is after all just atoms and molecules.

There are a lot of daimon rats the the anime.

by Wyrd » wrote: As for lower G suiting them, their exhibited strength would suggest that they were either enhanced or that their environment on their prior world had higher G's than Earth.

Or the have limited psychokinesis.

Or it the "suits" that give them the strength.

Do the daimons start it bloat if naked on Earth, or do they seem to get crushed to death in the manga? The anime would have us believe that Earths gravity is at least a minor issue for them when not suited up.

by Cheb » wrote: I think you are treating it wrong. You're not allowed to take things that seriously or go into that much detail. Ppl build a super-gadget, it works, end of story. You're wronged the genre itself. I'm frowning at you.

But there needs to be a reason for the person to be able to build the super-gadget. If Hotaru's replacement limbs had been biological that would have made sense.

by Cheb » wrote: He had access to the alien tech. "The wizard did it" justifies anything. End of story.
Oh, and I'm still frowning at you.

No, a "wizard did it" does not justify Hotaru's limbs since there was no wizard to do it.

I would have no problem with Hotaru having replacement limbs if they had been biological in stead of mechanical.

by Cheb » wrote: Umm... Didn't he just have to eat? Kind of envelop every living thing on Earth and digest them and *merge* with the planet, and thus avoiding its death of starvation? I remember SM saying Ph90 was "like black lava that reeks of death".
Imagine being swallowed by a hungry black goo and dissolved alive. Brrr

That kind of means the Moon would have work just as well.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Yeah, I saw that. That's not "more logical," as you put it. That's a matter of personal taste.

You failed to notice that Hotaru was not seemingly badly hurt, and not needing an arm and a leg or two?. The lack of those cyborg parts makes it make far more sense.

It's not a matter of taste. It is a matter of everything fitting together in a way that makes sense. Am I correct to think you have not watched season 3 in at least a while?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: And that's more logical? Just random evil? The manga has them there because they wish to survive, and Earth has what they need.

Yep the manga death busters are in it seemingly for the evils. There is nothing on the Earth in the SM manga they can't get elsewhere since they planned to kill everything anyway.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: You're forgetting that they didn't choose the location of the dimensional rift (or whatever it was; I keep forgetting). Even if they had control over it, they must have had a reason to choose Earth. Even if we thought what you did about their reason for being there, with them being randomly evil, then where else would they be able to torment and kill things that would be able to recognize evil for what it is, and thus have an effect? Earth.

If the location of the rifts was not the death busters choice then there is no reason to think there is anything on Earth they really want unlike their anime counter parts who came seemingly because it found the grail(a/the Ultra pure heart crystal/Hotaru/Sailor Saturn).

If the manga DB are just in it for the evils then summoning Pharaoh 90 does not make sense since it ends their fun.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Their secret control center is modern-day. Pay attention!

And who built it/put it there?

Why is it almost never used?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: It doesn't break SOD or create a plot hole. Obviously you haven't watched/read enough of anything to know how common it is for only a few people to make scientific and technological advancements that aren't shared, much less known, by the public. Movies, books, American comics, manga, anime; you name it, there are plenty examples of some person being super smart and/or having technology so advanced that what the public gets pales in comparison. Just as some classic examples, that any English-speaking person should know about, there's Victor Frankenstein, Lex Luthor and Emmet Brown.

It breaks SOD if it has no reason to be there, and Hotaru's cybernetic parts aren't even relevant to the story. They have no reason to exist in or out of universe.

Your choice of examples if kind of flawed since they all have reasons to have been able to have been able to do what they did, and took years for them to do it.

The SOD breaker for me isn't that Hotaru had artificial body parts, but that they are not biological.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: And you're still assuming that he would sell his knowledge regarding prosthetic limbs. Obviously Ami did not show any knowledge about them, so he, according to your reasoning, had not sold what he knew about it to the public. Like I said, he's not concerned about helping people: he's a mad scientist obsessed with creating super beings.

Ami not knowing of him is kind of an SOD breaker since his sort of work seems to be her interest.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Whoa there, bucko! Fan-art? There's your problem. Her limbs look realistic, to the point where she doesn't need to cover her hands. However, there are imperfect areas that expose the inner workings of the limbs, around the calves, a thigh and an elbow. But they are easily covered, even with tight-fitting clothing. So long as those areas are covered, she looks normal.

That is the picture I'm thinking of. Would you mind posting the picture here, or PM me it or a link?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Your opinion and reasoning doesn't rationalize what professor Tomoe should, would or could have done. The fact of the matter is that there's no evidence that he sold anything of his research regarding prosthetic limbs. Even if he had, and people in the public began to use the same kind of prosthetic limbs that Hotaru does, it wouldn't make the prosthetic limbs any more discernible to anyone; especially if the person using them has them covered up. Which is to say that, even if Tomoe had been well-known because of the prosthetic legs, Ami has no reason to assume that Hotaru has prosthetic limbs, just by looking at her. (You do remember that part of the argument, don't you?)

Thank you for agreeing with me.

There isn't really anything else he could have sold.

It's rather odd Ami didn't know who the Tomoes were.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I know someone who has a prosthetic leg, from the knee down, and I couldn't tell until I saw it uncovered.



by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: You're comparing incomparable realities. Sailor Moon Earth is not Real Life Earth. There are plenty of similarities, true, but the mechanics simply aren't the same. In their reality, like in many fictional realities, sometimes there are people who progress well and beyond what is considered modern technology. If you can't accept that as being the reality of a fictional universe, then there's no hope for you in understanding how these things work.

Right over your head again.

If one person can make super-tech then there will be lots of others who can and will, but there isn't in Sailor Moon.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote:Your loopy logic never ceases to amaze me. I bet you don't even realize that you defeated your own argument. You say there aren't any other cyborgs walking around, right after you said that someone is capable of making one that no one would be aware of. Well, gee, maybe you're not aware of more existing because they're well-hidden, not because no others are being made.

Wow, two insults, and a failed counter argument.

We can infer from what is said, and how the characters act that there are none.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Which is beside the point, anyway. The logical conclusion is that professor Tomoe is one of those special people in fictional stories that are capable of producing advanced technology with his superior understanding of science.

And that is an SOD breaker since he is out of place in the setting, and there aren't any others.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: As was mentioned before, they had no control over where they entered the dimension from.

As was stated, there was nothing keeping the Death Busters on Earth, and no talk I recall as to why Earth was the target in the manga.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Look at the periodic table of elements and guess which place has a greater variety of those things, between the Earth and any other place in the solar system. And since their bodies are biological in nature, only Earth would be able to provide such diverse and complex materials, which go well beyond the basic elements.

That just makes the Moon a better choice in Sailor Moon since it has all the stuff Earth does, and more.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I mean, honestly. Fly to another planet? What random evil could they do there, according to you? Would other planets even be able to sustain them, considering their atmospheres (or possible lack thereof), magnetic fields and complete lack of biological matter or whatever provides the energy they need from living things? This is assuming that Pharaoh 90 can fly, while also being unaffected by the vacuum of space. And who are "they," anyway? The senshi? They wouldn't do that. Pharaoh 90's servants? They do what Pharaoh 90 wants, and Pharaoh 90 wants Earth. Think, McFly! Think!

Fly to the Moon since in Sailor Moon it has one G, an atmosphere comparable to Earth, and no one living there. It would certainly beat the place Pharaoh 90 had just come from.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Says who? You? You're hardly an expert on the matter.
I've research the topic seemingly more then you. You need a number a different scientific fields working together as well as equipment Tomoe is never seen to use.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Wyrd » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:37 pm

Daimons clearly can survive without Pharaoh 90 or there wouldn't have been a Death Busters arc..


For a short time without a life support system. I read one story where the enemy was gating in aliens from another world to fight for them. They figured out how to fight the aliens after realizing that they couldn't breathe oxygen, they could just hold their breath for several hours even while being active. At that point, defeating the aliens became a matter of preventing them from returning to an atmosphere they could breathe instead of out fighting them, which had not been working so well.

My point is that they might be able to survive short term without Pharoah 90, but that doesn't mean that they didn't need it to survive/reproduce.


The Sailor Moon Moon would still have everything the Daimons would need since all Beryl and Sailor Saturn did was kill everything. The SM Moon has about 1G and still has an atmosphere since the senshi could walk normally and talk there.


In the past, it appears that the moon had an atmosphere and higher gravity than it currently does. It is much more reasonable, to me, to assume that the Senshi had some sort of life support and communications abilities built into their powers or that the only site on the moon they visited, the heart of the palace that was the heart of the moon kingdom, still had a functioning atmosphere bubble and gravity enhancer. Since in the manga the Queen Serenity AI was in control of that technology, it could have turned on those features when the Senshi prepared to teleport there.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:39 am

Daimons clearly can survive without Pharaoh 90 or there wouldn't have been a Death Busters arc..

Wyrd wrote:For a short time without a life support system. I read one story where the enemy was gating in aliens from another world to fight for them. They figured out how to fight the aliens after realizing that they couldn't breathe oxygen, they could just hold their breath for several hours even while being active. At that point, defeating the aliens became a matter of preventing them from returning to an atmosphere they could breathe instead of out fighting them, which had not been working so well.

My point is that they might be able to survive short term without Pharoah 90, but that doesn't mean that they didn't need it to survive/reproduce.
Such a biology has never sat well with me in fiction, but then again all the big bads and Sailor Senshi seem like weapons that went out of control.

The Sailor Moon Moon would still have everything the Daimons would need since all Beryl and Sailor Saturn did was kill everything. The SM Moon has about 1G and still has an atmosphere since the senshi could walk normally and talk there.

Wyrd wrote:In the past, it appears that the moon had an atmosphere and higher gravity than it currently does. It is much more reasonable, to me, to assume that the Senshi had some sort of life support and communications abilities built into their powers or that the only site on the moon they visited, the heart of the palace that was the heart of the moon kingdom, still had a functioning atmosphere bubble and gravity enhancer. Since in the manga the Queen Serenity AI was in control of that technology, it could have turned on those features when the Senshi prepared to teleport there.
Why should we assume that the Moon isn't habitable. They may have faked the moon landing in the Sailor Moon. :D
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:00 pm

I think I'll join Cheb in frowning at you, Zwzn. Reason and logic seemingly have no place in your arguments, though opinion, assumption, bias, baseless theories and fantasies certainly do. It's such an utter waste of time to argue against such things, so this is the last time that I'm going to bother. After this I'm going to treat your arguments as irrelevant. I no longer see the point in trying to make sense out of what you say.

Zwzn wrote:Too thin describes the arms and legs of all the characters at at least one point or another. Every character in the Sailor Moon manga is an eldritch abomination.

Okay, what does that have to do with anything? That's beside the point. And why only state that they're "eldritch abominations" in the manga, when they're the same characters regardless? Is it because the manga has information that's injurious to your arguments, I wonder?

Zwzn wrote:Which wouldn't stop someone from noticing a major difference if touched.

A desperate attempt to prove a point concerning an argument about sight, and easy detection of something being different from normal in general. Touch is neither related to sight nor an easy way to detect the difference, in part because Hotaru kept to herself and rarely came into contact with anyone, beyond her father and his assistant (who are already in the know). I can't recall if Chibi-Usa ever touched her hand or arm, but she didn't notice anything different until she saw Hotaru's arm completely exposed.

Zwzn wrote:The Sailor Moon Moon would still have everything the Daimons would need since all Beryl and Sailor Saturn did was kill everything. The SM Moon has about 1G and still has an atmosphere since the senshi could walk normally and talk there.

Pharaoh 90 is basically an entire alien bio-sphere after all.

Um, no, the moon wouldn't have what they need. I think Earth's astronauts would have noticed if the atmosphere could support life, or if its gravity was the same as Earth's. (And before you say anything about the Sailor Moon universe not being reality, it's still based on reality. Things like the moon landings wouldn't have changed.) The real answer is that senshi can move and live freely in vacuums and zero G. Not only is that based on the fact that nothing happened to them when the senshi traveled between the Earth and the moon, but when they had to travel from Earth to the center of the galaxy. Senshi are supposed to protect celestial objects like planets, moons, asteroids and star systems, so it makes perfect sense for them to be able to live in space. That's what Uranus and Neptune had to do, back in the Silver Millennium. Heck, just look at Pluto, a senshi who is never supposed to leave her post at the Door of Time. All three show that senshi never need to sleep, eat or drink, either. They need to be ever-vigilant, and need to take the fight away from their world/moon/asteroid, if they want to perform their duty to the utmost of their ability.

Zwzn wrote:How many daimons arrived on Earth in the manga? In the anime there was only Germatod.

Daimons and vessels are two different things, in the manga. Germatoid/Gelmaido used professor Tomoe as a vessel. Kaorinite (whatever her real name had been) was another vessel, also when they first arrived. Hotaru was Mistress 9's vessel, perhaps also when they first arrived. Pharaoh 90's vessel was going to be the Earth.

Zwzn wrote:Even if they had to open the portal on Earth there is no reason the death busters had to stay on Earth after Pharaoh 90 came through.

I don't see how that has to do with anything.

Zwzn wrote:Having to fight off the native life forms was a very big problem for the death busters to the point that Pharaoh 90 went back to where it had come from to escape them.

Buh? Which reality is this? I don't even recall that happening in the anime... In the manga, Pharaoh 90 was forced back into its home dimension by Saturn, who followed it in before she used her ultimate attack to kill it there, after Pluto had sealed the dimension off.

Zwzn wrote:But there needs to be a reason for the person to be able to build the super-gadget. If Hotaru's replacement limbs had been biological that would have made sense.
Zwzn wrote:I would have no problem with Hotaru having replacement limbs if they had been biological in stead of mechanical.
Zwzn wrote:The SOD breaker for me isn't that Hotaru had artificial body parts, but that they are not biological.

Okay, I'm going to nip this "biological makes more sense" bologna right in the bud: it doesn't make more sense. Need an example, which follows along with your logic, about how people should make scientific advancements? Just look at prosthetic limbs in reality. Do they start out as biologically-engineered, or mechanically-engineered? I'll give you a guess. Basically, while you say that it doesn't make sense for professor Tomoe to make the next logical step in prosthetics (mechanical limbs that look and function realisticly), it somehow makes sense for him to do something that is even more advanced than that in order for you to accept that he can create the kind of limbs that Hotaru has, when, at the same time, you have a problem with him being so much more advanced than what the average person considers to be modern?

Oh, and while I don't understand how needing a reason to build "super-gadgets" justifies anything, the only reasons anyone ever needs is interest and ambition. Not that anyone really needs a reason, but if you can only accept that people need reasons to do things...

Zwzn wrote:No, a "wizard did it" does not justify Hotaru's limbs since there was no wizard to do it.

You're right. It was a mad scientist. We're playing by sci-fi rules with this one, though Cheb's point still stands: this is fiction, and whether it's by the standards of sci-fiction or fantasy, realistic explanations need not apply.

Zwzn wrote:That kind of means the Moon would have work just as well.

It kind of doesn't. If it did, why didn't Pharaoh 90 go to the moon instead of bothering with all of the problems associated with trying to get Earth? And it's still assuming that Pharaoh 90 would have been able to travel to the moon, from the Earth, in the first place.

Zwzn wrote:You failed to notice that Hotaru was not seemingly badly hurt, and not needing an arm and a leg or two?. The lack of those cyborg parts makes it make far more sense.

It's not a matter of taste. It is a matter of everything fitting together in a way that makes sense. Am I correct to think you have not watched season 3 in at least a while?

Yeah, it sure does make sense, considering it's the same explanation that Cheb used, which you said didn't justify Hotaru's limbs. Again, it's a matter of taste. You like it that Hotaru was magically brought back to life because it's more convenient; there's less to explain because who can explain magic? I prefer the cybernetic limbs because it at least tries to explain Hotaru's condition in a more realistic fashion, in regard to both fictional and non-fictional contexts. You like that a kind and loving father was possessed by an evil alien, and I like the mad scientist who cared more about creating a super being than he did his daughter.

Whether I watched the third season of the anime recently or not is irrelevant to this argument. I did, of course, see what I needed to see to answer your argument. And it makes a lot of sense how professor Tomoe had miraculously survived that explosion; and in one piece, to boot. :roll:

Zwzn wrote:Yep the manga death busters are in it seemingly for the evils. There is nothing on the Earth in the SM manga they can't get elsewhere since they planned to kill everything anyway.

Uh-huh. So the heart crystals that the death busters were after could be found on the moon, Venus, Mars or some other place in the solar system? Are you even trying to make sense? Sheesh!

Zwzn wrote:If the location of the rifts was not the death busters choice then there is no reason to think there is anything on Earth they really want unlike their anime counter parts who came seemingly because it found the grail(a/the Ultra pure heart crystal/Hotaru/Sailor Saturn).

Earth must have had something, since they bothered to go after heart crystals and the energy required to bring Pharaoh 90 over and take the planet as its vessel. It's really obvious if you've read the manga, irregardless of whether they controlled the location of the dimensional rift or not.

Zwzn wrote:If the manga DB are just in it for the evils then summoning Pharaoh 90 does not make sense since it ends their fun.

Well, you're the one who suggested that they were "doing it for the evils," which they weren't. Do I even need to explain what they were doing? -_-;

Zwzn wrote:And who built it/put it there?

Why is it almost never used?

Considering how the entrance had to integrate with the arcade above it, which would have been a recent addition, I'd say that the guardian cats built it. They're capable of making new communicator watches and transformation pens, which is an indication that they know advanced technology and/or could have done it with magic.

It's only used when it's needed, and when it's relevant to the plot. I think it was used enough times, since it was used from the first story arc to the last. Mamoru used it to hack into the Infinity College, to find out more information about professor Tomoe, for instance. Aside from meetings, it's usually used by the guardian cats, who monitor situations from there.

Zwzn wrote:It breaks SOD if it has no reason to be there, and Hotaru's cybernetic parts aren't even relevant to the story. They have no reason to exist in or out of universe.

No reason? No relevance? Nope, you don't know what you're talking about. Are you even aware that we're talking about a fictional, sci-fi/fantasy universe called Sailor Moon? Are you drunk or on some mind-altering drug? Or are you the type of person who gets their jollies by messing with people? Honestly!

Zwzn wrote:Your choice of examples if kind of flawed since they all have reasons to have been able to have been able to do what they did, and took years for them to do it.

My choices were just fine for their intended purpose. They had no more reason than professor Tomoe, and regardless of how long it took them they were still ahead of modern technology in their respective settings. At least use some rational excuse to cover up how and why you're wrong.

Zwzn wrote:Ami not knowing of him is kind of an SOD breaker since his sort of work seems to be her interest.
Zwzn wrote:It's rather odd Ami didn't know who the Tomoes were.

Which leads me to believe that you don't know Ami. She wants to be a doctor, not a scientist (which, in this case, would mean a geneticist). Whatever he would have been known for would have been during a time (at least six to eight years ago) when Ami probably would not have been interested, much less noticed anything about it if anything about his published work ever came up.

Even if that wasn't the case, it's not an SOD breaker for a teenage girl like Ami, who knows a lot of stuff in general, to not know of him. Now, had she been old enough to work in the same field as professor Tomoe, then I think it would be an SOD breaker for her to not know about a fellow colleague that had (at one time) been famous for the same kind of work that she did. But, that's not the case.

Zwzn wrote:That is the picture I'm thinking of. Would you mind posting the picture here, or PM me it or a link?

I tried to look for it online, but I couldn't find it. Well, I know of one place (mangafox) where it could be found, but I consider it a risk to browse there. I can't afford any damages to my computer, so you're welcome to look for it there if you feel secure enough.

Zwzn wrote:Thank you for agreeing with me.

There isn't really anything else he could have sold.

Uh... I wasn't agreeing with you. And nothing that I said suggested that he would have nothing but the prosthetic limbs to sell. All anyone knows is that he sold some of his findings (based on radical experiments on animals, which is what got him expelled from the academic community) to some commercial developers, which in all likelihood has nothing to do with prosthetics.

Zwzn wrote:Right over your head again.

If one person can make super-tech then there will be lots of others who can and will, but there isn't in Sailor Moon.

Your head, you mean? I mean, for Christ's sake...

It's not a matter of how many people could or should be able to make advanced technology. The fact of the matter is that fictional stories can have at least one such person. It's not because there aren't any others, but because any others that might exist have nothing to do with the story. That should be very easy to understand, so... understand it!

Zwzn wrote:Wow, two insults, and a failed counter argument.

Reality check: there were no insults, and my argument was sound.

Zwzn wrote:We can infer from what is said, and how the characters act that there are none.

Then what are you arguing about? Just for the sake of arguing with me? Or haven't you been paying attention? Perhaps I should remind you of what we're arguing about:

Zwzn wrote:If Hotaru's father can easily make a cyborg without anyone knowing then there must be other cyborgs walking around in Sailor Moon, but there aren't.

Your argument makes no sense. How can you know that there aren't any, in any case, if there's someone who can make them without anyone knowing? Obviously, professor Tomoe can, seeing as no one had been the wiser until the outer senshi had a reason to look into his activities, and when Chibi-Usa had accidentally seen Hotaru's arm when it wasn't covered.

The only reasonable answer to explain why there wouldn't be other cyborgs around, is because professor Tomoe had no reason to make more, not because we don't see any. Saying that something isn't possible because it's not apparent, even though we know it's possible (because Hotaru went to school without anyone knowing about her prosthetic limbs), is flawed logic. It's as simple as that.

Zwzn wrote:And that is an SOD breaker since he is out of place in the setting, and there aren't any others.

*I slap my hand over my face*

He's not out of place. There's science-fiction elements throughout Sailor Moon, in part because Takeuchi was inspired by the sentai genre. And, again, not showing any other people like him is irrelevant.

Zwzn wrote:As was stated, there was nothing keeping the Death Busters on Earth, and no talk I recall as to why Earth was the target in the manga.

The fact is that they stuck with Earth, so they must have had a reason to. And even a casual read of the manga would tell you that they wanted to make Earth their new home.

Zwzn wrote:That just makes the Moon a better choice in Sailor Moon since it has all the stuff Earth does, and more.

Someone doesn't even have to be a scientist to tell you that you're wrong, wrong, wrong. Any fan of Sailor Moon worth their salt will tell you the same thing. I honestly don't understand how you come up with these kinds of answers... I don't know if I should pity you or be horrified that it's even possible.

Zwzn wrote:I've research the topic seemingly more then you.

I have a large number of examples, from this argument alone, that would say otherwise very strongly.

Zwzn wrote:You need a number a different scientific fields working together as well as equipment Tomoe is never seen to use.

So? It's not uncommon to see the finished product without much or all of the process.

Besides, his lab is clearly shown, and seems to cover whatever he's been creating/making during the story.

Now, then. I wasted five hours that I could have spent writing my fic. You better appreciate this!
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Wyrd » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:24 am

Okay, what does that have to do with anything? That's beside the point. And why only state that they're "eldritch abominations" in the manga, when they're the same characters regardless? Is it because the manga has information that's injurious to your arguments, I wonder?


I believe he was referring to the rather... inhuman appearance of the characters, which are drawn even less realistically in the manga than in the anime. This is just the art style, and says nothing about the people depicted. It is kind of like complaining about Barbie being unrealistically proportioned: If she had been made realistically proportioned with the technology of the time she was created, the dolls would have been too anatomically accurate for the culture they were being marketed to or would have been almost indistinguishable between the male and female dolls. These are for children--you enhance the differences to make them clearer, not to create inferiority complexes based on an unrealizable ideal.

As for the bionics, I can think of one big reason he could have chosen not to market them despite the money they would have made him: He was able to make all of the money he needed with less sensitive releases, and the cybernetic limbs were quite a bit stronger than human limbs. You don't want to strengthen the people you are about to try and conquer/destroy.

edit:

Now, then. I wasted five hours that I could have spent writing my fic. You better appreciate this!


NOOOOO! You must get back to work now! *whip crack* :lol:
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:24 am

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Okay, what does that have to do with anything? That's beside the point. And why only state that they're "eldritch abominations" in the manga, when they're the same characters regardless? Is it because the manga has information that's injurious to your arguments, I wonder?

You claimed Hotaru's arms and legs were abnormally thin, but with the surreal art style ever character is that way.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: A desperate attempt to prove a point concerning an argument about sight, and easy detection of something being different from normal in general. Touch is neither related to sight nor an easy way to detect the difference, in part because Hotaru kept to herself and rarely came into contact with anyone, beyond her father and his assistant (who are already in the know). I can't recall if Chibi-Usa ever touched her hand or arm, but she didn't notice anything different until she saw Hotaru's arm completely exposed.

The only way Hotaru's limbs would not be obvious would be if fake muscle and skin was added, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Um, no, the moon wouldn't have what they need. I think Earth's astronauts would have noticed if the atmosphere could support life, or if its gravity was the same as Earth's. (And before you say anything about the Sailor Moon universe not being reality, it's still based on reality. Things like the moon landings wouldn't have changed.)

Who says the Moon landing wasn't a hoax there?


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: The real answer is that senshi can move and live freely in vacuums and zero G. Not only is that based on the fact that nothing happened to them when the senshi traveled between the Earth and the moon, but when they had to travel from Earth to the center of the galaxy.

And what are the Senshi's travel times? Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Years?

Even traveling at the speed of light would be to slow.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Senshi are supposed to protect celestial objects like planets, moons, asteroids and star systems, so it makes perfect sense for them to be able to live in space.

Utterly unsupported senshi propaganda.

Keep in mind the only places anyone lived during the time of the Moon kingdom was on Earth, the Moon, or the senshi's castles.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: That's what Uranus and Neptune had to do, back in the Silver Millennium. Heck, just look at Pluto, a senshi who is never supposed to leave her post at the Door of Time. All three show that senshi never need to sleep, eat or drink, either. They need to be ever-vigilant, and need to take the fight away from their world/moon/asteroid, if they want to perform their duty to the utmost of their ability.

The Gates of Time and Space exist outside time and space. Time has no meaning there.

You have no way to prove the rest of this as far as I know.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Daimons and vessels are two different things, in the manga. Germatoid/Gelmaido used professor Tomoe as a vessel. Kaorinite (whatever her real name had been) was another vessel, also when they first arrived. Hotaru was Mistress 9's vessel, perhaps also when they first arrived. Pharaoh 90's vessel was going to be the Earth.

That in no way answers my question. A simple "I don't know" would have been more polite.

The Anime only shows one creature arrive, and that is Germatoid. The rest seem like they were grown in the lab at a later date.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I don't see how that has to do with anything.

Aside from there being no reason to stay on Earth even if they had to open the portal on Earth they didn't have to stay there? Nothing


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Buh? Which reality is this? I don't even recall that happening in the anime... In the manga, Pharaoh 90 was forced back into its home dimension by Saturn, who followed it in before she used her ultimate attack to kill it there, after Pluto had sealed the dimension off.

I read the battle many times. Pharaoh 90 was running away from Saturn, and the other senshi had caused major problems for the Death Busters to put it mildly. Pharaoh 90 seemed like it could wait to get a new vessel, and that means that vessel didn't need to be Earth.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Okay, I'm going to nip this "biological makes more sense" bologna right in the bud: it doesn't make more sense. Need an example, which follows along with your logic, about how people should make scientific advancements? Just look at prosthetic limbs in reality. Do they start out as biologically-engineered, or mechanically-engineered? I'll give you a guess. Basically, while you say that it doesn't make sense for professor Tomoe to make the next logical step in prosthetics (mechanical limbs that look and function realisticly), it somehow makes sense for him to do something that is even more advanced than that in order for you to accept that he can create the kind of limbs that Hotaru has, when, at the same time, you have a problem with him being so much more advanced than what the average person considers to be modern?

Tomoe in the manga is an insane biologist/genetisist who is trying to create the ultimate life-form. Robotics don't make sense for someone who should have no trouble growing body parts, and has seemingly no background in most of the various fields needed to make perfect prosthetics work. It doesn't make sense for Ironman to grow himself a heart.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Oh, and while I don't understand how needing a reason to build "super-gadgets" justifies anything, the only reasons anyone ever needs is interest and ambition. Not that anyone really needs a reason, but if you can only accept that people need reasons to do things...

The only reason there is ever a need in fiction for anything is to move the plot along, and the cybernetic body parts serve no purpose.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: You're right. It was a mad scientist. We're playing by sci-fi rules with this one, though Cheb's point still stands: this is fiction, and whether it's by the standards of sci-fiction or fantasy, realistic explanations need not apply.

A mad biologist who was growing entire life forms larger then Hotaru. There isn't any excuse for Hotaru to need cybernetic body parts.

It wouldn't make sense for Tony Stark to be able to grow himself a new biological heart.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: It kind of doesn't. If it did, why didn't Pharaoh 90 go to the moon instead of bothering with all of the problems associated with trying to get Earth? And it's still assuming that Pharaoh 90 would have been able to travel to the moon, from the Earth, in the first place.

Why couldn't Pharaoh 90 make it to the Moon?

It was not effected by gravity.

It didn't need to breath.

It wasn't in any real hurry to get a new vessel, or it would not have run away from from Saturn.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Yeah, it sure does make sense, considering it's the same explanation that Cheb used, which you said didn't justify Hotaru's limbs.

Cheb's answer seemed to be "You're not suppose to think about it, and or point out plot holes".

What role do the cybernetics play that could not have been played by only Mistress 9?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Again, it's a matter of taste. You like it that Hotaru was magically brought back to life because it's more convenient; there's less to explain because who can explain magic?

What are you talking about?


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: You like that a kind and loving father was possessed by an evil alien, and I like the mad scientist who cared more about creating a super being than he did his daughter.

I'd rather have both.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Whether I watched the third season of the anime recently or not is irrelevant to this argument. I did, of course, see what I needed to see to answer your argument. And it makes a lot of sense how professor Tomoe had miraculously survived that explosion; and in one piece, to boot.

It would be far more polite to not be so sarcastic if you didn't understand something.

Professor Tomoe survived in such good health because Hotaru shielded herself and her father who was standing behind her from the blast with her powers. It's why everyone else died, and how Germatoid knew Hotaru was Sailor Saturn before Hotaru's powers started to surface during the series.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Uh-huh. So the heart crystals that the death busters were after could be found on the moon, Venus, Mars or some other place in the solar system? Are you even trying to make sense? Sheesh!

It's stated the Death Busters needed heart crystals in the manga? I thought they needed the silver crystal.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Earth must have had something, since they bothered to go after heart crystals and the energy required to bring Pharaoh 90 over and take the planet as its vessel. It's really obvious if you've read the manga, irregardless of whether they controlled the location of the dimensional rift or not.

I've read the manga, and never have I seen a reason for the Death Busters to care about Earth being given. Laziness, ignorance, stupid, or insane all fit. We just aren't told why Earth from what I recall..


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Well, you're the one who suggested that they were "doing it for the evils," which they weren't. Do I even need to explain what they were doing? -_-;

The motive usually helps explain things.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Considering how the entrance had to integrate with the arcade above it, which would have been a recent addition, I'd say that the guardian cats built it. They're capable of making new communicator watches and transformation pens, which is an indication that they know advanced technology and/or could have done it with magic.

So the answer is that it is never explained.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: It's only used when it's needed, and when it's relevant to the plot. I think it was used enough times, since it was used from the first story arc to the last. Mamoru used it to hack into the Infinity College, to find out more information about professor Tomoe, for instance. Aside from meetings, it's usually used by the guardian cats, who monitor situations from there.

So it's a completely useless location that is almost never used.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: No reason? No relevance? Nope, you don't know what you're talking about. Are you even aware that we're talking about a fictional, sci-fi/fantasy universe called Sailor Moon? Are you drunk or on some mind-altering drug? Or are you the type of person who gets their jollies by messing with people? Honestly!

When was the last time you saw a show/movie where they had a team of geneticists designing robots or cyborgs? Probably never because it doesn't make sense.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: My choices were just fine for their intended purpose. They had no more reason than professor Tomoe, and regardless of how long it took them they were still ahead of modern technology in their respective settings. At least use some rational excuse to cover up how and why you're wrong.

When was the last time you saw a show/movie where they had a team of geneticists designing robots or cyborgs? Probably never because it doesn't make sense.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Which leads me to believe that you don't know Ami. She wants to be a doctor, not a scientist (which, in this case, would mean a geneticist). Whatever he would have been known for would have been during a time (at least six to eight years ago) when Ami probably would not have been interested, much less noticed anything about it if anything about his published work ever came up.

Even if that wasn't the case, it's not an SOD breaker for a teenage girl like Ami, who knows a lot of stuff in general, to not know of him. Now, had she been old enough to work in the same field as professor Tomoe, then I think it would be an SOD breaker for her to not know about a fellow colleague that had (at one time) been famous for the same kind of work that she did. But, that's not the case.

And yet Tomoe was a big name in the medical/biotech field, caused major stirs., and owned a huge chunk of Tokyo but nobody heard of him. That makes no sense.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I tried to look for it online, but I couldn't find it. Well, I know of one place (mangafox) where it could be found, but I consider it a risk to browse there. I can't afford any damages to my computer, so you're welcome to look for it there if you feel secure enough.

What risk?

What chapters?

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Uh... I wasn't agreeing with you. And nothing that I said suggested that he would have nothing but the prosthetic limbs to sell. All anyone knows is that he sold some of his findings (based on radical experiments on animals, which is what got him expelled from the academic community) to some commercial developers, which in all likelihood has nothing to do with prosthetics.

I thought commercial developers were something else. Live and learn.

That still leaves the question as to what he could sell since anyone who read his papers would know how to do anything he did.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Your head, you mean? I mean, for Christ's sake...

It's not a matter of how many people could or should be able to make advanced technology. The fact of the matter is that fictional stories can have at least one such person. It's not because there aren't any others, but because any others that might exist have nothing to do with the story. That should be very easy to understand, so... understand it!

Sailor Moon is lacking in Super-tech and super heros/villains beside the senshi and the tiny number of villains. We logically would have heard something if there were other supers of any sort around.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Reality check: there were no insults, and my argument was sound.


I was insulted by your rude comments. They were insults even if you did not intend them to be.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Your argument makes no sense. How can you know that there aren't any, in any case, if there's someone who can make them without anyone knowing? Obviously, professor Tomoe can, seeing as no one had been the wiser until the outer senshi had a reason to look into his activities, and when Chibi-Usa had accidentally seen Hotaru's arm when it wasn't covered.

The only reasonable answer to explain why there wouldn't be other cyborgs around, is because professor Tomoe had no reason to make more, not because we don't see any. Saying that something isn't possible because it's not apparent, even though we know it's possible (because Hotaru went to school without anyone knowing about her prosthetic limbs), is flawed logic. It's as simple as that.

It's a plot hole that makes no sense, and has no reason for being there.

So far all you say is "it's canon, it doesn't have to make sense" which isn't a valid response.

by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: *I slap my hand over my face*

He's not out of place. There's science-fiction elements throughout Sailor Moon, in part because Takeuchi was inspired by the sentai genre. And, again, not showing any other people like him is irrelevant.

The limbs are out of place, but it likely comes down to the author just not knowing any better. It break SOD for me because I know better.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: The fact is that they stuck with Earth, so they must have had a reason to. And even a casual read of the manga would tell you that they wanted to make Earth their new home.

For no good reason is not a reason.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Silver Crystal left the Earth if the Daimons would follow it in the manga since it was what they needed.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Someone doesn't even have to be a scientist to tell you that you're wrong, wrong, wrong. Any fan of Sailor Moon worth their salt will tell you the same thing. I honestly don't understand how you come up with these kinds of answers... I don't know if I should pity you or be horrified that it's even possible.

The Moon is just like Earth in Sailor Moon only smaller, and has a dead bio-sphere. Since the Death Busters were planing on killing everything, and Pharaohforming the Earth the moon would be easier because they can just skip the kill everything phase.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: I have a large number of examples, from this argument alone, that would say otherwise very strongly.

Says the guy who can't figure out why Hotaru and her father didn't die with everyone else in the anime.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: So? It's not uncommon to see the finished product without much or all of the process.

That is the problem, Professor Tomoe in the manga has no interest in those other fields.


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Besides, his lab is clearly shown, and seems to cover whatever he's been creating/making during the story.

Mind providing some scans then?


by Crescent Pulsar R » wrote: Now, then. I wasted five hours that I could have spent writing my fic. You better appreciate this!

I do appreciate this.

You know, I've never timed how long it takes me to type up a post, but 5 hours doesn't seem that far from the average for me at the other sites I am a member of.

by Wyrd » wrote: I believe he was referring to the rather... inhuman appearance of the characters, which are drawn even less realistically in the manga than in the anime. This is just the art style, and says nothing about the people depicted. It is kind of like complaining about Barbie being unrealistically proportioned: If she had been made realistically proportioned with the technology of the time she was created, the dolls would have been too anatomically accurate for the culture they were being marketed to or would have been almost indistinguishable between the male and female dolls. These are for children--you enhance the differences to make them clearer, not to create inferiority complexes based on an unrealizable ideal.

The art in the Sailor Moon manga really bothers me. I'd love it if they released a version of Sailor Moon draw by the guy who drew Chibi-Vampire.


by Wyrd » wrote: As for the bionics, I can think of one big reason he could have chosen not to market them despite the money they would have made him: He was able to make all of the money he needed with less sensitive releases, and the cybernetic limbs were quite a bit stronger than human limbs. You don't want to strengthen the people you are about to try and conquer/destroy.

I don't think you can fight off the daimons with simple brute force. They are kind of like the Flood, Parasite-X, and Species 8472. You don't want to get very close to them.

It could give the good Professor more test subjects.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Wyrd » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:06 pm

And what are the Senshi's travel times? Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Years?

Even traveling at the speed of light would be to slow.


Not instantaneous, but less than days. It would likely best be described either in minutes or hours, as she stops outside the galactic core when gets near to it to prepare herself for the last leg of the journey. This just means that she was moving far faster than the speed of light.

You claimed Hotaru's arms and legs were abnormally thin, but with the surreal art style ever character is that way.


That was me, and her limbs are proportionately thinner than any other characters, but she is also supposed to be a child who has been sickly for years. Take a look at a child cancer patient who has gone through years of treatment and their limbs will also be abnormally thin, to the point that their being able to walk at all is surprising.

The only way Hotaru's limbs would not be obvious would be if fake muscle and skin was added, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


Covered by clothes and with her never touching anyone, the cyber limbs would not need to be that realistic to pass, especially since her classmates knew that she had been in an accident so they would likely assume any irregularities were the result of that accident.

Utterly unsupported senshi propaganda.

Keep in mind the only places anyone lived during the time of the Moon kingdom was on Earth, the Moon, or the senshi's castles.


The war in the first season was apparently between Earth and the Moon, but later seasons refer to Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter as princesses of their planets. We do not know how many people lived on those worlds or how widespread they were, so your assumption that they only lived in the castles is just as much an assumption as that there were more people on those worlds than that. There is a common practice among allied kingdoms/fiefdoms in history to send their children to be raised together to strengthen the diplomatic bonds between them. The Moon was apparently the lead kingdom in their system, but the various planets also seemed to have a degree of autonomy.

In PGSM, the live action series, there are only five Senshi because there were five worlds that the Ginzuishou had made habitable.

Aside from there being no reason to stay on Earth even if they had to open the portal on Earth they didn't have to stay there? Nothing


Pharoah 90 needed a massive portal sustained by the power derived from hundreds of heart crystals to travel from planet to planet. So did you expect it to just eat Tokyo while it waited for its agents to travel to another planet to open a portal from? Besides, Earth had everything it needed and it had no objection to conquering and slaughtering the indigenous species for its own ends.

Why couldn't Pharaoh 90 make it to the Moon?

It was not effected by gravity.

It didn't need to breath.

It wasn't in any real hurry to get a new vessel, or it would not have run away from from Saturn.


Saturn has the power to destroy planets. Even if retreating would doom it to die in a few years, when giving a choice between dieing now and dieing a few years from now, most creatures will go for the second option. She pursued it because as long as it continued to exist there was a chance that it would try to conquer Earth again. Perhaps some surviving daimons would have been able to establish a second base of operations and try to open a new portal in the time it had left.

There is a line at one point, IIRC, that says that the homeworld of Pharoah 90 was dying, though I don't believe it ever said why. It could have just been running out of resources, a large impact could have destabilized its orbit, its sun could have been growing too big to keep that planet in an inhabitable zone...

We do not know about the gravity or breathing issue since that portal it was travelling through might have been needed because it couldn't survive a space voyage to other worlds.

It's stated the Death Busters needed heart crystals in the manga? I thought they needed the silver crystal.


If I recall correctly, yes, they did. At the end, when they had to rush the timetable because the Senshi were closing in, they harvested the heart crystals of virtually every student in the building. They had been deliberately seeking students for the academy that already had fairly pure crystals and had been working to make as many of them as possible have pure crystals, since those seem to be worth more energy. They were also working to make the students better vessels for Daimons, so the original plan may have been to not bring Pharoah 90 in until they had an army to defend its landing point.

When was the last time you saw a show/movie where they had a team of geneticists designing robots or cyborgs? Probably never because it doesn't make sense.


All of the time in sci-fi. The super genius tends to have an area of expertise but often is able to make advanced devices/creatures from a wide array of disciplines. This is common in comic books, movies, manga, anime, novels, etc. Iron Man does fiddle with genetics in some of his stories. He develops cybernetic parts, medical techniques, all sorts of things, including developing, eventually, a technique that allowed them to remove the shrapnel from his body so that he no longer needed the suit to survive. Biology may not be his main interest, but if the plot called for someone in the group to know something and a better choice(such as Bruce Banner if the subject was gamma mutation) was not available, the egghead of the group would know it.

And yet Tomoe was a big name in the medical/biotech field, caused major stirs., and owned a huge chunk of Tokyo but nobody heard of him. That makes no sense.


Tomoe was famous. He had only become famous in the last few years, when his discoveries had grown useful and lucrative enough to attract attention from outside of the scientific community, but the manga does describe him as famous.

What risk?

What chapters?


Mangafox was a bad place for viruses for a while. I do not know if that is still true.

That still leaves the question as to what he could sell since anyone who read his papers would know how to do anything he did.


There are all sorts of things he could have sold to make money that would not have been a risk to their plans for world domination. Genetically engineered plants, cures for diseases, much lower tech versions of the cybernetics he used on Hotaru--all of these and more are things that he could have sold. He was only really interested in enough money to finish the plans of Pahroah 90, so he wouldn't need to worry about long term gains.

Sailor Moon is lacking in Super-tech and super heros/villains beside the senshi and the tiny number of villains. We logically would have heard something if there were other supers of any sort around.


This is part of the Sentai genre. As such, the Japanese viewers would assume that either there were other heroes or there weren't, but that either way they were irrelevant to the story. It is like many of the recent Marvel comic book movies, where it seems like they are the only metahuman/superhero in the world until the very end, when the same Nick Fury approaches each of them. The other superheroes aren't brought up because they aren't relevant to the story, not because they don't exist.

The limbs are out of place, but it likely comes down to the author just not knowing any better. It break SOD for me because I know better.


It doesn't break SOD for Japanese viewers, though, because this is standard fare for them. There are conventions of storytelling in every culture, some of which seem strange when that story is brought to a different culture.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Silver Crystal left the Earth if the Daimons would follow it in the manga since it was what they needed.


Would Sailor Moon leave Earth if she knew that it would save the planet and draw away her enemies? Sure. The problem is that they would continue searching the Earth for it unless she acted to make certain they knew it had been carried elsewhere.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:49 pm

Okay, Zwzn, Cressie, getting a bit heated in here.

There're no rule violations yet, but just note I am keeping an eye on this.

(And how the heck did this thread turn into a Zwzn debate about the Death Busters?)
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:04 pm

y Wyrd » wrote: Not instantaneous, but less than days. It would likely best be described either in minutes or hours, as she stops outside the galactic core when gets near to it to prepare herself for the last leg of the journey. This just means that she was moving far faster than the speed of light.

So what proof is there she was flying through normal space?

You know I really hate StarS.

y Wyrd » wrote:That was me, and her limbs are proportionately thinner than any other characters, but she is also supposed to be a child who has been sickly for years. Take a look at a child cancer patient who has gone through years of treatment and their limbs will also be abnormally thin, to the point that their being able to walk at all is surprising.

By manga standards Hotaru looks chunky to me, but then most characters look like what you are describing to me.

y Wyrd » wrote: Covered by clothes and with her never touching anyone, the cyber limbs would not need to be that realistic to pass, especially since her classmates knew that she had been in an accident so they would likely assume any irregularities were the result of that accident.

Idiot ball,

Plot Induced Stupidity

y Wyrd » wrote: The war in the first season was apparently between Earth and the Moon, but later seasons refer to Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter as princesses of their planets. We do not know how many people lived on those worlds or how widespread they were, so your assumption that they only lived in the castles is just as much an assumption as that there were more people on those worlds than that. There is a common practice among allied kingdoms/fiefdoms in history to send their children to be raised together to strengthen the diplomatic bonds between them. The Moon was apparently the lead kingdom in their system, but the various planets also seemed to have a degree of autonomy.

We are never shown any life on anything save the Moon that I'm aware of.

It looks more like slavery as practiced in the Roman empire.

y Wyrd » wrote: In PGSM, the live action series, there are only five Senshi because there were five worlds that the Ginzuishou had made habitable.

I've seen enough of PGSM to know it was very poorly done, and has very little in common with the anime or manga.

y Wyrd » wrote: Pharoah 90 needed a massive portal sustained by the power derived from hundreds of heart crystals to travel from planet to planet. So did you expect it to just eat Tokyo while it waited for its agents to travel to another planet to open a portal from? Besides, Earth had everything it needed and it had no objection to conquering and slaughtering the indigenous species for its own ends.

I would expect Pharaoh 90 to by flying there under it's own power since we have no reason to think it could not.

y Wyrd » wrote: Saturn has the power to destroy planets. Even if retreating would doom it to die in a few years, when giving a choice between dieing now and dieing a few years from now, most creatures will go for the second option. She pursued it because as long as it continued to exist there was a chance that it would try to conquer Earth again. Perhaps some surviving daimons would have been able to establish a second base of operations and try to open a new portal in the time it had left.

So, you think Pharaoh 90 had more then enough time to get to another planet if it wanted to.

y Wyrd » wrote: There is a line at one point, IIRC, that says that the homeworld of Pharoah 90 was dying, though I don't believe it ever said why. It could have just been running out of resources, a large impact could have destabilized its orbit, its sun could have been growing too big to keep that planet in an inhabitable zone...

If the anime is anything to go by the Star the planet orbited may have died.

y Wyrd » wrote: We do not know about the gravity or breathing issue since that portal it was travelling through might have been needed because it couldn't survive a space voyage to other worlds.

Gravity is not shown to effect Pharaoh 90.

Pharaoh seemed to be floating in space to me.

I was under the impression Pharaoh 90 was a creature similar to Metallia, and Chaos only more powerful.

y Wyrd » wrote: If I recall correctly, yes, they did. At the end, when they had to rush the timetable because the Senshi were closing in, they harvested the heart crystals of virtually every student in the building. They had been deliberately seeking students for the academy that already had fairly pure crystals and had been working to make as many of them as possible have pure crystals, since those seem to be worth more energy. They were also working to make the students better vessels for Daimons, so the original plan may have been to not bring Pharoah 90 in until they had an army to defend its landing point.

And it never crosses their minds to go somewhere other then Earth?

y Wyrd » wrote: All of the time in sci-fi. The super genius tends to have an area of expertise but often is able to make advanced devices/creatures from a wide array of disciplines. This is common in comic books, movies, manga, anime, novels, etc. Iron Man does fiddle with genetics in some of his stories. He develops cybernetic parts, medical techniques, all sorts of things, including developing, eventually, a technique that allowed them to remove the shrapnel from his body so that he no longer needed the suit to survive. Biology may not be his main interest, but if the plot called for someone in the group to know something and a better choice(such as Bruce Banner if the subject was gamma mutation) was not available, the egghead of the group would know it.

Super-Genious who has spent years studying just about anything and everything. The guy who has smarts as a super-power is not Tomoe

Marvel seems to have realized how stupid that is since they had Tony Stark actually say he isn't the guy to go to for medical help, and Tony Stark makes use of other peoples research to build his stuff.

The Invincible IRON MAN 501
Tony Stark: I'm not really a DOCTOR, so I don't really know what I'm doing, but... ...but I'm trying to do it all the same and I'd appreciate a little peace and quiet.

y Wyrd » wrote: Tomoe was famous. He had only become famous in the last few years, when his discoveries had grown useful and lucrative enough to attract attention from outside of the scientific community, but the manga does describe him as famous.

But the Senshi didn't know who he was in the vaguest way.

y Wyrd » wrote: There are all sorts of things he could have sold to make money that would not have been a risk to their plans for world domination. Genetically engineered plants, cures for diseases, much lower tech versions of the cybernetics he used on Hotaru--all of these and more are things that he could have sold. He was only really interested in enough money to finish the plans of Pahroah 90, so he wouldn't need to worry about long term gains.

The Tomoes were insanely wealthy. Well beyond what would be needed for anything.

y Wyrd » wrote: This is part of the Sentai genre.

Sailor Moon and her near useless friends is what I see in the manga. It's more a one man band.

y Wyrd » wrote: As such, the Japanese viewers would assume that either there were other heroes or there weren't, but that either way they were irrelevant to the story. It is like many of the recent Marvel comic book movies, where it seems like they are the only metahuman/superhero in the world until the very end, when the same Nick Fury approaches each of them. The other superheroes aren't brought up because they aren't relevant to the story, not because they don't exist.

You mean like the Hulk movie where Tony appears on screen, or the Iron Man movie which leads straight into the Thor and Captain America movies?

DC characters as I recall was not originally meant to share a universe, and most Marvel characters seemed to appear around the same time.

It seems like there are a lot of Sentai crossovers.

y Wyrd » wrote: It doesn't break SOD for Japanese viewers, though, because this is standard fare for them. There are conventions of storytelling in every culture, some of which seem strange when that story is brought to a different culture.

So the Japanese have low standards?

The only super-hero we hear about in the news is Sailor-V.

y Wyrd » wrote: Would Sailor Moon leave Earth if she knew that it would save the planet and draw away her enemies? Sure. The problem is that they would continue searching the Earth for it unless she acted to make certain they knew it had been carried elsewhere.
Considering the enemies all seem to be able to narrow the location down of the plot device to a tiny part of Tokyo I'm pretty sure they would notice if what they were looking for left the planet.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:06 pm

by Pale Wolf » wrote: Okay, Zwzn, Cressie, getting a bit heated in here.

There're no rule violations yet, but just note I am keeping an eye on this.

Just trying to figure some stuff out since I was never able to read every volume. I think My questions, possibly misunderstanding answers, and the manga being poorly planed may be annoying Pulsar R

by Pale Wolf » wrote: (And how the heck did this thread turn into a Zwzn debate about the Death Busters?)
Someone said something about the villains being stupid for being in only/mostly Tokyo, and having so few operations. All the villains save Death Busters had very good reason to to at least be in the area the senshi live save the Death Busters who seem to have picked the area at random.
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Re: Osaka Naru: baddie magnet?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:14 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:Okay, Zwzn, Cressie, getting a bit heated in here.

Wait, what? But I just left the discussion. There shouldn't be any more friction! :P

(And how the heck did this thread turn into a Zwzn debate about the Death Busters?)

(What Zwzn said, plus I didn't mind going off-topic. He doesn't understand that there is a good reason for why the Death Busters are where they are, and other details surrounding it branched off into separate and/or unrelated arguments. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing, I'm afraid.)

Zwzn wrote:Just trying to figure some stuff out since I was never able to read every volume. I think My questions, possibly misunderstanding answers, and the manga being poorly planed may be annoying Pulsar R

I just got tired of nonsensical answers, that's all. There are limits to how much time and effort I'm willing to put into looking through my Sailor Moon graphic novels and formulating answers from the facts within them.
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